Author Topic: Ohio to ban red light cameras  (Read 4001 times)

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Offline Old Viking

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Re: Ohio to ban red light cameras
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2013, 02:51:48 pm »
I thought yellow means "Hurry Up."
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Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Ohio to ban red light cameras
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2013, 09:59:17 am »
While I generally support the use of red light cameras, there are two arguments that I have heard against the cameras that hold some validity;

1) The 6th Amendment to the Constitution guarantees the accused the right to face his/her accuser.  Since there is no human witness to the crime,  the accused is unable to face an accuser.

That is seriously an argument people use? I thought that was just something the made up on The Big Bang Theory.

It is a quite valid line of attack if the state tries to hold the position that the camera is always right and fails to prove it. You should at least be able to face the technician who maintained that piece of equipment and force them to prove it was properly looked after. You are innocent until proven guilty and picture of your car means Jack shit unless they can reasonably demonstrate that it is a picture of your car going through a red light.

Kind of like challenging a speeding ticket on the basis that it wasn't properly tested and calibrated.

Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Ohio to ban red light cameras
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2013, 10:24:16 am »
While I generally support the use of red light cameras, there are two arguments that I have heard against the cameras that hold some validity;

1) The 6th Amendment to the Constitution guarantees the accused the right to face his/her accuser.  Since there is no human witness to the crime,  the accused is unable to face an accuser.

That is seriously an argument people use? I thought that was just something the made up on The Big Bang Theory.

It is a quite valid line of attack if the state tries to hold the position that the camera is always right and fails to prove it. You should at least be able to face the technician who maintained that piece of equipment and force them to prove it was properly looked after. You are innocent until proven guilty and picture of your car means Jack shit unless they can reasonably demonstrate that it is a picture of your car going through a red light.

Kind of like challenging a speeding ticket on the basis that it wasn't properly tested and calibrated.

Sure, but that's not an argument against the use of red-light cameras, simply against the notion that cameras should be treated as definite evidence. The argument quoted above claims that a camera is inadmissible evidence because it's not a human witness, which is a different thing.

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Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Ohio to ban red light cameras
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2013, 02:14:04 pm »
I'm not sure those people have really thought out their argument then because that would throw out anything recorded unless someone is actually siting there listening or watching as the machine is running.

I had always thought that this argument was more a case of you can't create an automated ticketing machine that has essentially no human oversight ensuring that it is working properly and is maintaining a proper chain of evidence.

Offline Jack Mann

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Re: Ohio to ban red light cameras
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2013, 08:42:17 pm »
One legal issue is that when the ticket is mailed to you, it hasn't actually been served.  It isn't legally served until you acknowledge you've received it, either by calling the police or visiting their website (linked on the ticket).  At least in Arizona, you can, legally, ignore the ticket.

Of course, then they can send a police officer to your door to serve it in person, and make you pay for wasting their time.  It really depends on how much you think they want to give you the ticket...
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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Ohio to ban red light cameras
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2013, 07:50:00 pm »
For all those discussing the danger of running red lights, it should be pointed out that (at least American) traffic lights don't turn green until some time after the opposite light has turned red, to give enough time for traffic to come to a halt on that road before letting the rest go through. Red light cameras don't discriminate between someone driving through when the light has just turned red and traffic is stopped, or someone speeding through oncoming traffic and risking a collision.

As has been pointed out, it's often safer to drive through a red if you don't have enough distance to stop for whatever reason (people don't have their attention locked on the lights 24/7, nor do they instantly decide on a course of action and stick to it perfectly; plenty of people will try to speed up to get through a yellow, especially those on a deadline, and then have to either screech to a halt or speed through a red because they're simply not fast enough) purely BECAUSE of this leeway time. If someone is aware that they're going to be punished for making a relatively safe decision, however, they're much more likely to panic and slam on the brakes. You can talk all you want about how taking a ticket is safer than risking a crash, but people DON'T consider every single risk before making a decision. Especially not when they have literally less than a second to decide. The statistics match up with that.

Pairing up red light cameras with shorter yellow lights seems like an intentional attempt to create more lawbreakers for enhanced revenue, which is utter bollocks and just creates more of those collisions and near-collisions when people trying to make it through a yellow suddenly find themselves staring at a ticket.
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Offline starseeker

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Re: Ohio to ban red light cameras
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2013, 07:56:59 am »
I had someone shoot a red light on me last week and hit my car on the side of the bonnet, writing it off. Though it wasn't as if he just missed an amber, his light had been red for a while, he just wasn't paying any attention. Though I think that junction does have red light camera which is gonna help him get prosecuted. So right now I am very, very in favour of red light cameras.

Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Ohio to ban red light cameras
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2013, 05:39:03 pm »
I don't think anyone is arguing that they don't have benefits, I think the only question is do the benefits outweigh the detriments?

I mean, even though it's people's bad habit of tailgating that's to blame for the increase in accidents at traffic lights with red light cameras, if you can prove that statistically, the presence of the cameras is in correlation with an increase in rear-ends (compared to the drop in other accidents) then it's something to be considered.

There's two options in that case.  Remove the red light cameras, or teach pepole not to tailgate.  Unfortunately, since the latter is being taught anyways, and people are NOT listening, then the former option is the unfortunate choice.

You can blame rampant pregnancy on lack of sex education (and the data does support this) but you can't blame terrible driving on lack of education because no matter what you teach, people have their own ideas on how to drive and roll their eyes at the "safety nonsense" in Driver's Ed.

Believe me, I went to a decent school and there were three students in class who would derisively remark on anything related to safety or driving manners.  One of them said that the only reason he was going to class was because he needed a license, but that he didn't need the education itself.

Same person who also tried to shut several students out in the cold, too, after the break was finished.  Bully Jerk Jock type of person.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 05:41:49 pm by Magus Silveresti »
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Offline Askold

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Re: Ohio to ban red light cameras
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2013, 11:55:44 pm »
I am more inclined to go for the option of taking away drivers license and confiscating the cars from people who do not care for any laws or safety on the road for others.

I'm not sure how many red light cameras we have since it seems that stupid behaviour in traffic lights is not so common here but traffic cameras monitoring speeding are getting more and more common. At least in Finland traffic cameras are one of the few things that make the reckless drivers slow down or at least try to drive according to laws. (The other thing is seeing a police car.) Since setting up cameras here and there is cheaper than having police everywhere (especially since the Finnish way is to have one functional camera and 10 or so empty camera boxes and moving the camera around.)
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Ohio to ban red light cameras
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2013, 02:59:05 am »
I am more inclined to go for the option of taking away drivers license and confiscating the cars from people who do not care for any laws or safety on the road for others.

Problem is, these people are rarely caught being idiots on the road.

Not to mention that if we managed to do this, I have a feeling that a large chunk of America's going to lose their driver's licenses.  And unfortunately, where I live, we don't have public transport.
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Offline Askold

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Re: Ohio to ban red light cameras
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2013, 04:40:33 am »
I am more inclined to go for the option of taking away drivers license and confiscating the cars from people who do not care for any laws or safety on the road for others.

Problem is, these people are rarely caught being idiots on the road.

Not to mention that if we managed to do this, I have a feeling that a large chunk of America's going to lose their driver's licenses.  And unfortunately, where I live, we don't have public transport.

So the choices are:

a) Allow assholes who disobey laws endanger other people on the roads.
b) Punish said assholes and possibly cause severe difficulties to their daily lives. (Hard to get to work let alone shop for food.)

I am inclined to go with option b. Although I do admit that first time they are caught running red lights or speeding is no reason to take away drivers license, unless it was some REALLY reckless driving.

I actually think that if there are consequences for behaving like an asshole it might serve as a warning and make people change their behaviour. I also think that if you repeatedly run red lights for no good reason or refuse to leave a safe distance between your car and the one ahead of you or otherwise break the simplest laws and rules of safe driving then you deserve fines or even losing your drivers license.

I have seen enough results of car crashes for one lifetime and I have little sympathy for people who think they are immortal or otherwise don't believe that traffic laws concern them.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
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Re: Ohio to ban red light cameras
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2013, 11:22:59 am »
It will only work if you take the vehicle. My ex hasn't had a valid license for four years. He still drives if he can get his hands on a car.

Offline Askold

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Re: Ohio to ban red light cameras
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2013, 02:11:27 pm »
It will only work if you take the vehicle. My ex hasn't had a valid license for four years. He still drives if he can get his hands on a car.
Which brings up a whole new issue. The worst offenders are the ones who just don't give a fuck. There was a news story about a Finnish woman who had been fined for driving without a license (often drunk as well) 50 times in a year. Unfortunately she had no income and therefore she couldn't pay her fines and ever since we decided that unpaid fines won't be turned into jailtime there has been no way to do actually punish her...

Because for some reason the courts haven't confiscated her car.

Although in some cases people who've had their car taken away simply steal or borrow a car whenever they need one. When someone truly stops giving a fuck about anything at all (the one's who don't even care about their own health or LIFE are the most dangerous ones) the only things that can stop them are jail or death.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Ohio to ban red light cameras
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2013, 07:42:59 pm »
Yeah, something about consigning someone to eventual homelessness just because they're a reckless driver leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

And as we've seen in states with the death penalty, severe consequences for infractions are not a deterrent.
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Offline MadCatTLX

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Re: Ohio to ban red light cameras
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2013, 09:28:22 pm »
I'm willing to guess that as many a 20% of the drivers around here might not have a valid license. I can't even begin to guess what the number of drunk drivers are. Thought it's not like these cameras would do jack shit since the nearest traffic light is a 20 miles away.
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