Author Topic: worst response to a rebuttal of the moral arguement for god?  (Read 2089 times)

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Offline future colours

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worst response to a rebuttal of the moral arguement for god?
« on: August 02, 2013, 12:31:10 pm »
I had this chat with Jason Lisle a little while back about the moral argument and he gave me a few "rebuttals" after i gave i a secular account for morality take a look.... this makes me wanna bang my head on the table all day long...

“If people regarded other people’s families in the same way that they regard their own, who then would incite their own family to attack that of another? For one would do for others as one would do for oneself.” – Mozi

[Dr. Lisle: In the Christian worldview, yes, we should treat others as we want to be treated since they are created in the image of God. But on your worldview, it seems the only reason to be nice to other is in hopes that they will in the future make the logical mistake of reciprocating. In other words, it will likely benefit me. So this quote reinforces my interpretation of your story, that morality is just another word for selfishness in your worldview - which of course is not true morality at all.]

“The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful.” –Laozi

[Dr. Lisle: Makes sense in the Christian worldview. But in the secular worldview, WHY? Why should I be "kind" unless I think it will benefit me in the future (selfishness)? Can you answer that Tony?]

“Regard your neighbor’s gain as your own gain, and your neighbor’s loss as your own loss.” –Laozi

[Dr. Lisle: In the Christian worldview, we should indeed love others as ourselves. We are all made in God's image. But if other people are just chemical accidents of nature, it makes no sense to treat their gain as my gain. Are you starting to understand now? You are stealing from the Christian worldview to support ideas that make no sense on your own professed worldview.]

Offline Star Cluster

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Re: worst response to a rebuttal of the moral arguement for god?
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2013, 01:39:06 pm »
The sole purpose in Christianity is to be good enough not to go to Hell when you die.  Regardless of anything else it teaches, everything revolves back around to being good  enough to go to Heaven.  You can't do anything that will get someone else into Heaven, only yourself. 

How could ANY worldview be any more selfish than that?
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Offline future colours

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Re: worst response to a rebuttal of the moral arguement for god?
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2013, 01:51:16 pm »
but what if he replies that he is saved by the grace of god and not about how good he is? it seems to me that when he says that you can just reword the question no?

Offline Star Cluster

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Re: worst response to a rebuttal of the moral arguement for god?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2013, 02:39:23 pm »
As I said, regardless of any other things Christianity teaches, or regardless of any other argument they may come up with, it all, and I mean all of it, boils down to the fact that each Christian is trying to get into Heaven (or more bluntly, stay out of Hell.)  Without that end, there is absolutely no reason to follow the Christian faith.  None. 
The heavens convince me there is no god.

Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.--Steven Weinberg

Religion can never reform mankind because religion is slavery--Robert G. Ingersoll

I don't know why people compare George Carlin to God. He's great and all, but he's no George Carlin.-Anon.

Offline Old Viking

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Re: worst response to a rebuttal of the moral arguement for god?
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2013, 03:12:10 pm »
Pure pragmatism -- selfishness, if you prefer -- is a very solid basis for morality.  It sure beats following the the lunatic ravings of a sky daddy.
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: worst response to a rebuttal of the moral arguement for god?
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2013, 05:20:28 pm »
Trivial answer is "I'm not being kind because I necessarily expect reciprocation, I'm being kind because I genuinely value other people's well-being".

But that actually depends on your meta-ethics. Some people would say that they are only good for selfish reasons. I think it's a rationalization, but hey, who cares as long as they rationalize themselves into doing good things.

Quote
In the Christian worldview, yes, we should treat others as we want to be treated since they are created in the image of God.
That isn't a reason, that's just words. Why would 'being created in the image of God' imply good treatment? It's the is-ought problem all over again: that is a fact that doesn't imply a moral obligation without some further moral framework that says 'that which is created in the image of God should be treated with kindness' or words to that effect.

Should you be good to get to heaven? Then, as Star Cluster pointed out, that's still a selfish motivation.

Do you get to Heaven because of grace regardless of being good or not? Then what the hell does Christianity have to do with morality?

Does grace make you do good things because you are one of the elect (as some Calvinists hold)? Then Christianity doesn't really account philosophically for morality, it just says 'magic ghost came and made me a good person'. Which makes it irrelevant, because non-Christians also do good things.
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Offline Quasirodent

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Re: worst response to a rebuttal of the moral arguement for god?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2013, 11:30:51 pm »
As often mentioned, just because something is unpleasant doesn't mean it's not true.
It would be nicer to live in a world where humans were truly good for goodness' sake, but we don't.  We developed reciprocal benevolence for mutual benefit and the success of our species.  We are often kind because it makes us feel nice, we are chemically rewarded for pro-survival social activities.  Just like how physical bonding, intimacy, cuddling, or sharing food make us feel nice inside.

That we would feel better if we had a higher purpose to our less horrible traits, does not mean we do.
Jesus had two dads and he turned out okay.

Offline JohnE

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Re: worst response to a rebuttal of the moral arguement for god?
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2013, 01:55:06 pm »
In these kinds of discussions/arguments, I often get the impression that Christians are trying to convince atheists that morality is meaningless and arbitrary. Part of me wants to respond, "Wow, you're right. Morality IS meaningless. Thank you for openning my eyes! BRB, gonna rape your mom."

Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: worst response to a rebuttal of the moral arguement for god?
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2013, 03:33:55 pm »
In these kinds of discussions/arguments, I often get the impression that Christians are trying to convince atheists that morality is meaningless and arbitrary. Part of me wants to respond, "Wow, you're right. Morality IS meaningless. Thank you for openning my eyes! BRB, gonna rape your mom."
Sounds like a good idea to me. I love giving stupid replies to stupid questions and arguments.
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