Author Topic: Because SWATting people you don't like is cool apparently...  (Read 3305 times)

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Offline R. U. Sirius

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Re: Because SWATting people you don't like is cool apparently...
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2015, 09:14:58 pm »
That's one reason I say "guns for show, melee for pros". If I were ever in a mass-shooting situation, I'd want to head for the nearest exit straightaway and help as many people get there as I could. But, on the off-chance that I'm close enough to the shooter (5-10 feet), haven't gotten shot yet myself and have a decent chance of catching them by surprise, I'd like to think that I'd be brave enough to grab the nearest weaponlike object and whack them over the head or behind the knee, hopefully putting them in a position where I or someone else could put them out of commission.

All that being said, my first instinct would still be to head for the exit, and I know that, as small as the odds of me ever being in a mass shooting are, the odds of me being in that perfect situation where I'd be able to pull off such a stunt are even more vanishing. But at least with a melee weapon, I wouldn't be putting any more metal on projectile arcs through the air.
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Offline rookie

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Re: Because SWATting people you don't like is cool apparently...
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2015, 10:20:34 pm »
I assume you're right, Guizonde. Personally, I've never seen to much safety. Well, except for in the fall on my first trip out hunting when I forget to take the damn safety off for the first shot of the year. But yeah, that is a good attitude to take. Too much is almost enough.

UP, that does help clarify,thanks.  And there are jobs that require a person to carry. But ask any of them (except the local police departments) how much training goes into situational training. Ask them how many hours a month they put in at the range. Ask them about the small mountain of paperwork that goes into every time the trigger is pulled. Not necessarily to stop anyone from doing what needs to be done, but to make sure one really is at that last resort.
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Re: Because SWATting people you don't like is cool apparently...
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2015, 11:48:33 pm »
I avoid open-carry areas whenever possible. You wanna know why? Because when open-carry is prohibited, if someone starts shooting, you have one crazy dude with a gun. When open-carry is allowed, if someone starts shooting, you have one crazy dude with a gun, and twelve idiots thinking their time to be a hero has come, all shooting in all directions, with a very good chance that at least some of them are mistaking each other for "the shooter".

Open-carry is a bad idea. I'd almost go so far as to say privately owned pistols are a bad idea. What use does anyone have for a pistol outside the home?
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Re: Because SWATting people you don't like is cool apparently...
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2015, 12:05:19 am »
So, I might be the odd one out but in a mass-shooting, I would have no trouble shooting back. And so everyone knows my reasoning, allow me to explain how I have arrived at this mindset.

For a long time I was of the "shooting-back-will-make-it-worse" belief. I was worried about innocents in the cross-fire and so on; I'm sure it's already been talked about here (I haven't really read the thread in detail, just skimmed) so I need not go into detail on this. But then came the Aurora theater rampage and that was when my beliefs changed. I thought about what had happened in that theater and the more I thought about it and the more I thought about the anatomy of a mass-shooting as well as the reports of individuals involved in Defensive Gun Uses, the more I came to realize that it just makes no sense to not fight back even knowing the risks.

In a mass shooting, the murderer is looking to kill as many people as possible before their fun ends, either with handcuffs or with a cop's bullet. Being able to fire indiscriminately into a packed mass of bodies is what they want and the longer they can do that the more blood they can spill. We have seen what happens when these events transpire.

However, if you introduce someone else with a firearm into this mix, three possible things will happen:

1) The murderer will suicide.
2) The murderer will run away.
3) The murderer will shoot back.

Options 1 and 2 are, frankly, the best options and I doubt anyone would lose sleep if those happened so let's examine the third. The murderer hears gunshots that aren't his own and decides to return fire. Now he has a specific target that he has to focus on to keep from being killed before his fun time is up. What is the one thing he's not doing now that he has to focus on the Good Guy with a Gun? He's no longer firing into the innocents. At best, the new shooter will end this rampage quickly and without further loss of life. But what about collateral damage? When you're not actively aiming at a target it becomes very hard to hit something the size of a person, especially if that object is moving so the chances of someone being killed from it are quite low. Next, the path of the bullets are now restricted to a single column of fire toward the two people who are now in a firefight. This means that instead of making calm, aimed shots at innocent people's vitals, his adrenaline has kicked in which will cause his fine motor skills (needed for aimed shots) will go to shit. If the GGwaG is able to recall any of the Four Rules, he will remember Number Four; Be Sure of Your Target and What is Beyond it, and will have already moved to a location without people behind him and the fewest (if any) behind the murderer which will mean that the paths of fire are now away from the innocents.

Let's say the GGwaG kills the murderer. What has happened? People high five him, beer is opened and the GGwaG goes home and fucks the prom queen while a scumbag is assuming room temperature. Kidding, of course. In reality, he will have to live with the fact that he's taken a life and every time someone calls him a hero or a murderer it will remind him that he's had to kill another human being. At best he learns to live with it. At worst, he's brought up on some charge or another and faces jail time and/or fines. Hopefully, a therapist will get some more business.

But for arguments sake, let's say he manages to kill the GGwaG. What has happened? Time has been bought. Maybe seconds, maybe a minute, but there has been time where people were not being shot. This means the police are now closer than they would have been and more people are now alive by the time the sirens are heard. As history has shown, when the cops show up, the murderer will often blow his own head off. And nothing of value was lost.

When I looked at the possibilities of what could happen, I would rather a GGwaG take a risk and try to stop a threat while maybe hitting an innocent person than let a psycho run wild and know that innocent people WILL get killed.

As for me, personally, my first priority is to extract myself and my family/friends from the situation if possible and only fight as a last resort. But I am also painfully aware that the police can't be everywhere at once and that when something bad happens, I have to operate under the assumption that I am on my own and react accordingly. That means run if I can and fight if I have to. And if I do have to fight, I hope that I fight well. But I will not trust my life to the good intentions of someone who views me as an obstacle to taking anything from me.

As to the subject of open carry, I've seen a lot of assumptions about the mindset of people who open carry and I want to take a moment to explain some of the reasons behind the practice. I spend a lot of my time behind-the-lines, as some might call it; I'm on gun blogs and forums quite a lot and have a better understanding of the American staunch pro-gun mindset than (and I'm not meaning to piss anyone off) a lot of the users here.

Yes, some people open carry for political reasons; the most noteworthy of these people being Open Carry Texas. The reason OOT was seen open carrying rifles wasn't because they were looking to be Billy Badass but instead it was because Texas state law banned the practice of open carrying of modern handguns, but it was legal to openly carry rifles and black-powder handguns and they were campaigning to have the law amended to include modern handguns. Their reasons are political. While Texas has legalized the licensed open carry of modern handguns, we will see if OOT fades to things like political organizing and BBQs, but I think they'll try and get Constitutional Carry passed next.

Another reason people will open carry is deterrence. They feel that if the bad guys see there is someone with a firearm present, it will have the same affect as seeing a cop: they'll take their bad intentions elsewhere. From what I have seen, there isn't a whole lot to discount this as I have rarely heard of someone open carrying being involved in a DGU. Something I'm sure a lot of people on here think (and I've seen this a lot everywhere) is the "it makes them a target" argument. The argument goes that if the bad guys know you're armed, they'll just shoot you and go about their crime. Or take your weapon and so on. This is, by all indications, a fear that has been blown out of proportion. I've only seen one instance of an open carrier being robbed of their weapon, and it was the same story that had Barb squealing with glee (that sounds mean, but I'm not trying to be, Barb, I'm just stating an observation). However, as I stated in that post, the open carrier's weapon was unloaded (as required by law) and he didn't have a permit to conceal. And that was the only story I've found. These days, a lot of people carry cell-phones on their belts so it is easy to mistake a subcompact pistol holster for a cell-phone holster at a glance. It happened to me when I was standing behind an open carrier in line at a gas station. Guy could have been my grandpa and I thought he just had a phone case at a glance until I looked again and saw it was a small revolver. So if a bad guy comes running in to rob the place, there's a good chance he won't even know the open carrier is there.

However, some people live in areas where it is legal to open carry without a license. These people will often open carry firearms just because they don't want to deal with more government paperwork. And I know, I know, "how do we know if they're legally allowed to have a gun if they aren't licensed" you ask? Well, frankly, we don't. And there are times cops will stop them and ask them some questions but if the person is following the law they can't detained. And usually, they are very cooperative with the police. Of course, I won't pretend this is 100% the case every time, but the cops enjoy saying "you might beat the rap but you can't beat the ride." So, there's that.

And then you have people who open carry because of the weather. For instance, here in Oklahoma we've been having temps of 95 F - 100 F, give or take and it can be a pain in the ass to try and fully conceal a pistol under a t-shirt without printing. Much easier to strap on the gun, put on a shirt and walk out the door without even trying to hide it. Believe it or not, hiding a pistol is not always easy due to body shapes, pistol weights, belts needed, types of holsters needed, differences in hip angles between men and women who carry, and the size and weight of the pistol you're carrying. Which brings us to...

Pistol sizes. There is a glut of pistols on the market and carry is is one of the fastest growing segments of the firearms market. There are a huge range of handguns available and while all can be suited in some way for carrying, it doesn't mean that the one that the owner chooses will be the best one the owner can hide. Hell, sometimes the owner can't afford the best concealed pistol so has to go for one that might be a little less cash but end up being much larger in side and width. Also, someone who is tall and skinny, for example, might not be able to conceal a full-sized handgun like a 1911 so if that is what they have, they might just decide to open carry it but someone who might be short and fat like yours truly would be able to walk around with it hidden without much problem. However, just because I can walk with it hidden doesn't mean that I will be able to sit and keep it hidden in the waistband of my pants. And that brings us to...

Clothing. Wardrobe is a huge factor in how a person might want to carry. Let's say the owner has a favorite handgun. It's comfortable, fires well, he trains with it, and carries it often on a daily basis. But after a while it starts becoming more and more uncomfortable as he's been spending more time with Chester Cheeto than on his treadmill...*hangs head and raises his hand*...which might one choose to do? Spend oodles more money to replace clothes that fit well enough without the pistol adding the extra width to the waist just so he can keep it hidden or just strap it to the outside of his waistband and go for a jog? And then there's those people who find that the clothes they like and want to wear don't lend themselves well to carrying a handgun concealed. And every female here who has spent time in the women's changing room knows that women's clothes are often cut much more form fitting than for guys and that makes concealing a firearm much more difficult. Clothing matters a lot when it comes to the manner in which you carry.

Some people will open carry simply because they can. And that's their right, as long as they follow the law I don't see it as a problem.

And yes, there will always be jackasses, as with any group; those who have the "I-just-hope-they-try-something" mindset. However, the number of those I have personally encountered are exceedingly rare. I think the number stands at 1 and everyone else was calling him an idiot. However, I can't make any claims for carriers as a whole because I can't read their minds.

However, the majority of those who carry do so because they recognize the world is not safe and having a firearm for them is much the same as having a fire extinguisher; they hope they never have to use it but if they need it, they're really going to fucking need it. but the manner in which they carry is up to the individual.

As for the benefits or drawbacks of open carry verses concealed carry, that's up for debate (and has been debated into the ground). I actually support open carry, but the reason I support it is because I don't want to become a criminal if the grip of my pistol prints or if my shirt rides up.

Keep in mind, these are the opinions of a Political Sasquatch; a progressive/liberal/socialist who is staunchly pro-gun.
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Re: Because SWATting people you don't like is cool apparently...
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2015, 09:06:48 am »
Open-carry is a bad idea. I'd almost go so far as to say privately owned pistols are a bad idea. What use does anyone have for a pistol outside the home?

Casual target practice and competition shooting come to mind.  However, those are in fairly well-controlled environments...or at least where no one will get hurt.
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Re: Because SWATting people you don't like is cool apparently...
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2015, 09:45:05 am »
Open-carry is a bad idea. I'd almost go so far as to say privately owned pistols are a bad idea. What use does anyone have for a pistol outside the home?

Casual target practice and competition shooting come to mind.  However, those are in fairly well-controlled environments...or at least where no one will get hurt.

Trap hunters usually carry a pistol or revolver for killing animals caught in non-kill traps.
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Re: Because SWATting people you don't like is cool apparently...
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2015, 12:33:53 pm »
Damen I was hoping you'd show up.
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Re: Because SWATting people you don't like is cool apparently...
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2015, 06:16:18 pm »
Oh? Were you also hoping I'd show up with an essay as well? :P
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Re: Because SWATting people you don't like is cool apparently...
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2015, 06:41:24 pm »
Open-carry is a bad idea. I'd almost go so far as to say privately owned pistols are a bad idea. What use does anyone have for a pistol outside the home?

Casual target practice and competition shooting come to mind.  However, those are in fairly well-controlled environments...or at least where no one will get hurt.

Trap hunters usually carry a pistol or revolver for killing animals caught in non-kill traps.

Eeh, I only count hunting if its NOT for sport.  If you're doing it to eat (even if you don't technically need it) or to keep certain animal populations in check, then that's fine.  Sport, though?  If you want sport, go play basketball or something.
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Re: Because SWATting people you don't like is cool apparently...
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2015, 08:22:36 pm »
Open-carry is a bad idea. I'd almost go so far as to say privately owned pistols are a bad idea. What use does anyone have for a pistol outside the home?

Casual target practice and competition shooting come to mind.  However, those are in fairly well-controlled environments...or at least where no one will get hurt.

Trap hunters usually carry a pistol or revolver for killing animals caught in non-kill traps.

Eeh, I only count hunting if its NOT for sport.  If you're doing it to eat (even if you don't technically need it) or to keep certain animal populations in check, then that's fine.  Sport, though?  If you want sport, go play basketball or something.

or skeet shooting....

may those clay pigeons burn in terracotta hell for all eternity...
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Re: Because SWATting people you don't like is cool apparently...
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2015, 09:08:54 pm »
Open-carry is a bad idea. I'd almost go so far as to say privately owned pistols are a bad idea. What use does anyone have for a pistol outside the home?

Casual target practice and competition shooting come to mind.  However, those are in fairly well-controlled environments...or at least where no one will get hurt.

Trap hunters usually carry a pistol or revolver for killing animals caught in non-kill traps.

Eeh, I only count hunting if its NOT for sport.  If you're doing it to eat (even if you don't technically need it) or to keep certain animal populations in check, then that's fine.  Sport, though?  If you want sport, go play basketball or something.

I believe sport hunting is almost always combined with population control. It works out quite nicely that way, the hunters get to have their fun, and the government can keep the animal populations under control almost for free.

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Re: Because SWATting people you don't like is cool apparently...
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2015, 11:59:54 pm »
Fishing also. Biologists here in Maryland (and elsewhere I'd  like to believe) use all manner of data to decide limits and seasons. And hunters and fishermen are actually a great source of data. The two groups here do it right I believe. The populations seen to stay roughly in check. Even the sanctimonious soccer mom next door hated that the deer ate her azaleas.

ETA: Damen, actually, I never questioned you'd have an essay with you about a subject like this.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 12:05:51 am by rookie »
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Re: Because SWATting people you don't like is cool apparently...
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2015, 10:28:04 am »
Open-carry is a bad idea. I'd almost go so far as to say privately owned pistols are a bad idea. What use does anyone have for a pistol outside the home?

Casual target practice and competition shooting come to mind.  However, those are in fairly well-controlled environments...or at least where no one will get hurt.

Trap hunters usually carry a pistol or revolver for killing animals caught in non-kill traps.

Eeh, I only count hunting if its NOT for sport.  If you're doing it to eat (even if you don't technically need it) or to keep certain animal populations in check, then that's fine.  Sport, though?  If you want sport, go play basketball or something.

I believe sport hunting is almost always combined with population control. It works out quite nicely that way, the hunters get to have their fun, and the government can keep the animal populations under control almost for free.

Meh...my uncle taught me that, if you kill an animal and it isn't in self-defense, that you make use of it.  Hide, fur, meat, whatever, just don't let it rot, or at least bury it.  Basically, be respectful.
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Re: Because SWATting people you don't like is cool apparently...
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2015, 12:20:04 am »
Open-carry is a bad idea. I'd almost go so far as to say privately owned pistols are a bad idea. What use does anyone have for a pistol outside the home?

Casual target practice and competition shooting come to mind.  However, those are in fairly well-controlled environments...or at least where no one will get hurt.

Trap hunters usually carry a pistol or revolver for killing animals caught in non-kill traps.

Eeh, I only count hunting if its NOT for sport.  If you're doing it to eat (even if you don't technically need it) or to keep certain animal populations in check, then that's fine.  Sport, though?  If you want sport, go play basketball or something.

I believe sport hunting is almost always combined with population control. It works out quite nicely that way, the hunters get to have their fun, and the government can keep the animal populations under control almost for free.

Meh...my uncle taught me that, if you kill an animal and it isn't in self-defense, that you make use of it.  Hide, fur, meat, whatever, just don't let it rot, or at least bury it.  Basically, be respectful.

Sounds nice in theory, and probably common sense if you are hunting to survive. If not, though, the only difference that'll make is you save a little on groceries. Not a bad thing in its own right, but to say it's about being "respectful" is just silly. As if the animal you just killed for fun and population control is going to give a shit whether it's you or the local scavengers that eat its corpse.