Author Topic: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries  (Read 100360 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Art Vandelay

  • Guest
Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #165 on: February 27, 2016, 11:01:48 pm »
I'm with Nicki, Queen seems to have taken on a rather fundamentalist swing here.
I thought Queen made a really good point about the Supreme Court. Nicki, on the other hand, is the one throwing a hissy fit over the mere possibility that her Lord and Saviour may not in fact win. Not to mention, for the past several months she and a few others have constantly been claiming some sort of pro-Hillary conspiracy within the party, yet refuses to even acknowledge it when her claims are debunked or even asked for specific details.

Offline The_Queen

  • Royalty & Royalty-free
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1840
  • Gender: Female
  • And here we go...
Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #166 on: February 27, 2016, 11:07:20 pm »
I'm with Nicki, Queen seems to have taken on a rather fundamentalist swing here.

Really?

Queen, if Sanders wins the Democratic nomination, would you vote for him?

I have made no qualm about doing so. The only times I've made claims to the contrary were to add emphasis to the point that I think it's short-sighted.

Also, Gibbon, with all do civility, what leads you to that conclusion?
Does anyone take Donald Trump seriously, anymore?

Offline Eiki-mun

  • der Löwe aus Mitternacht
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1475
  • Gender: Male
  • On the fields of Breitenfeld.
    • Main Personal Blog
Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #167 on: February 27, 2016, 11:08:24 pm »
To me, it honestly sounds like Queen's the reasonable one here. And I'm a Sanders voter, so keep that in mind.
There is no plague more evil and vile to watch spread than the plague that is the Von Habsburg dynasty.

Offline nickiknack

  • I Find Your Lack of Ponies... Disturbing
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 6037
  • Gender: Female
  • HAS A KINK FOR SPACE NAZIS
Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #168 on: February 27, 2016, 11:14:28 pm »
Bernie isn't my fucking lord and Savior, I'm just tired of what has become of the Democratic Party, and the fact that people can't seem to understand how rotten the party has become, due to them selling their souls for Wall Street cash.

Offline lord gibbon

  • That Weird Guy in the Corner
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 868
  • Gender: Male
  • living trivia machine
Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #169 on: February 27, 2016, 11:24:31 pm »
I'm with Nicki, Queen seems to have taken on a rather fundamentalist swing here.

Really?

Queen, if Sanders wins the Democratic nomination, would you vote for him?

I have made no qualm about doing so. The only times I've made claims to the contrary were to add emphasis to the point that I think it's short-sighted.

Also, Gibbon, with all do civility, what leads you to that conclusion?
It's not fanaticism in the normal sense, certainly, but Hillary has been pushing a sort of narrative of inevitability, and that's what I'm noticing. Please note that, according to the head-to-head polls, Hillary would lose to Cruz or Rubio, whereas Bernie would beat them. Yet I'm constantly told that Hillary is "more electable". I just honestly can't see what could appeal to any liberal about Hillary that Bernie doesn't do better, exept maybe guns, and even then it's a big maybe.
Excuse me, sir, do you have a minute to talk about your lord and savior, Hannibal Barca?

Quote from: Seneca
Religion is regarded by the common man as true, by the wise man as false, and by the powerful man as useful
Yeah, if the pagans are so smart, why did Jesus invade Pagan-land on the back of a dragon and kill them all!

Offline The_Queen

  • Royalty & Royalty-free
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1840
  • Gender: Female
  • And here we go...
Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #170 on: February 27, 2016, 11:28:32 pm »
I'm with Nicki, Queen seems to have taken on a rather fundamentalist swing here.

Really?

Queen, if Sanders wins the Democratic nomination, would you vote for him?

I have made no qualm about doing so. The only times I've made claims to the contrary were to add emphasis to the point that I think it's short-sighted.

Also, Gibbon, with all do civility, what leads you to that conclusion?
It's not fanaticism in the normal sense, certainly, but Hillary has been pushing a sort of narrative of inevitability, and that's what I'm noticing. Please note that, according to the head-to-head polls, Hillary would lose to Cruz or Rubio, whereas Bernie would beat them. Yet I'm constantly told that Hillary is "more electable". I just honestly can't see what could appeal to any liberal about Hillary that Bernie doesn't do better, exept maybe guns, and even then it's a big maybe.

With all due respect I have laid out my reasoning with more detail in several threads on this sub-board over the past 6 months. As much as I hate to give answers that lack substance, they're really easy to find within this sub-board. I highly encourage you read some of them, as they would also provide more context for my shortness with Ibbles and Nicki.

ETA: as for electibility, I addressed that earlier in this thread in more detail. Long story short, these polls are not very indicative of anything as they are more attenuated to their end result. As seen from where Bernie was last May and where he is today, a lot can change in 9 months.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 11:32:10 pm by The_Queen »
Does anyone take Donald Trump seriously, anymore?

Art Vandelay

  • Guest
Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #171 on: February 27, 2016, 11:37:34 pm »
Bernie isn't my fucking lord and Savior, I'm just tired of what has become of the Democratic Party, and the fact that people can't seem to understand how rotten the party has become, due to them selling their souls for Wall Street cash.
And you don't seem to understand how reality works. People who disagree with you exist, and have just as much say in politics as you do. If you're going to give up as soon as things don't go 100% your way, you're never going to achieve anything. Especially if you're willing to let your opponents win if it means you have to support your mere 2nd best option.

Also, your vague pro-Hillary conspiracy theories about the Dems don't exactly do you any favours in the not looking like a fundie department.

Offline The_Queen

  • Royalty & Royalty-free
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1840
  • Gender: Female
  • And here we go...
Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #172 on: February 27, 2016, 11:45:21 pm »
To Queen and nicki (and generally anybody else who strongly prefers one of Clinton or Sanders to the other): if neither candidate has, from their pledged delegates, a majority of all delegates to the national convention, what would you think if the superdelegates handed the nomination to the candidate with fewer pledged delegates?

I knew I read a question that I overlooked in the haste,

No, I would not. The rules were known from the outset and it's not fair to the other to call shenanigans after the start when something doesn't go your way. Let's assume you need 2400 delegates to win and there are 4800 total, 4000 pledged, 800 superdelegates. If Hillary won with 1600 pledged and 800 superdelegates, I'd feel that Bernie got wronged. If Hillary wins with 500 superdelegates and 1900 pledged (to Bernie's 2100), I would not, because of the stance I took earlier about rules being known at the outset.

But, the superdelegate total is moot if Hillary wins the pledge delegates, as then she would logically get an equal percentage of superdelegates if it were "fair," and then she would win by virtue of having more delegates in both categories. And, as seen from today and the way that Super Tuesday is shaping up, she's gonna walk out with a lot of pledged delegates. Sandersr didn't really put together a post-Nevada campaign plan.
Does anyone take Donald Trump seriously, anymore?

Offline nickiknack

  • I Find Your Lack of Ponies... Disturbing
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 6037
  • Gender: Female
  • HAS A KINK FOR SPACE NAZIS
Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #173 on: February 28, 2016, 12:01:52 am »
Did i say anything about giving up?? Nope, but the party is no longer entitled to my vote, they have to earn it, and they've done a pretty shitty job since the 1990's. It's well known that the Democratic Party has sold out the working class, and there are tons of books about it, heck Thomas Frank(of "What's A Matter With Kansas?"frame) is coming out with a new one in a couple of weeks. I refuse to vote for parties that continue to peddle neo-liberalism, because it's not in my best interest to do so.

Offline niam2023

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 4213
  • Gender: Male
  • The Forum Chad
Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #174 on: February 28, 2016, 12:37:56 am »
If Hillary wins, I'll vote for Hillary.

If Bernie wins, I'll vote for Bernie.

I'll admit I don't understand the kind of "loyalty" going on here.

Queen is definitely right about the subject of writing in a vote for Green (a party that isn't in a hurry to do a lot) or a meaningless vote - you'd be far better served to at least vote for a candidate with mostly good positions while the opposition contains among other things a deranged psychopathic theocrat who thinks he's the chosen one, a businessman peddling neo-nazism and fascism, and a robot who is programmed by his donors.

This obsession with the Clinton Family's "neo-liberalism" just sounds like a weird conspiracy theory. Maybe I haven't experienced anything negative due to this perceived wrong being I am from an affluent / upper-middle class family, but it seems like nickiknack is coming undone through this.

Living Life, Lifting, Waiting for Summer

Offline The_Queen

  • Royalty & Royalty-free
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1840
  • Gender: Female
  • And here we go...
Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #175 on: February 28, 2016, 12:41:23 am »
If Hillary wins, I'll vote for Hillary.

If Bernie wins, I'll vote for Bernie.

I'll admit I don't understand the kind of "loyalty" going on here.

Queen is definitely right about the subject of writing in a vote for Green (a party that isn't in a hurry to do a lot) or a meaningless vote - you'd be far better served to at least vote for a candidate with mostly good positions while the opposition contains among other things a deranged psychopathic theocrat who thinks he's the chosen one, a businessman peddling neo-nazism and fascism, and a robot who is programmed by his donors.

This obsession with the Clinton Family's "neo-liberalism" just sounds like a weird conspiracy theory. Maybe I haven't experienced anything negative due to this perceived wrong being I am from an affluent / upper-middle class family, but it seems like nickiknack is coming undone through this.

Niam, I give two shits if you're on my side, we already agreed, that you can shut the blue hell up!

#SorryNotSorry
Does anyone take Donald Trump seriously, anymore?

Offline RavynousHunter

  • Master Thief
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8108
  • Gender: Male
  • A man of no consequence.
    • My Twitter
Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #176 on: February 28, 2016, 01:01:11 am »
Bernie isn't my fucking lord and Savior, I'm just tired of what has become of the Democratic Party, and the fact that people can't seem to understand how rotten the party has become, due to them selling their souls for Wall Street cash.

*sighs*

Here goes nothing.

Nicki, what the fuck?  Do you think we're all just oblivious dipshits wandering through life with blinders sutured on to our eyelids?  We're aware of this, or at least I am.  You want to change party politics, then vote in the frigging primary where your vote matters a hell of a lot more than in the general election.  However, failing that, the Democratic Party is still a better bet than, as Niam pointed out, the GOP frontrunners which are either a toupee that comes across eerily like a fucking neo-Nazi, a sociopath that would gladly exploit every human being alive to advance his own agenda, or a glorified megaphone.

Bullshit write-ins and third party votes are worse than worthless, they could run the risk of actively sending us back to the metaphorical (or, if we're particularly unlucky, literal) Stone Age.  You're actively taking votes from people who are, again, at least going to use lube when they screw you.  Do we need campaign finance reform?  Duh.  How about universal healthcare and post-secondary education?  Yeah, I'd love for us to not be a bunch of Bronze Age savages, either.  Now then, you can do this one of two ways:

1) Help Bernie win the primary.  Even if he only gets a little bit of things done, he's at least less dirty than most.
2) If Bernie fails, despite your help, then at least help us not get a President that would send not just this country, but the rest of the world, into yet another global economic depression and might even start World War III.

Change is not always big, Nicki, and you're going to have to get bloody used to that.  The revolution is NOT now.  We can at least get some incremental improvement on social issues and get another shot, next time, to get some improvement on economic and political issues.  Politics is a long game, and you have to be willing to be patient and, most of all, thank your lucky fucking stars that the Democratic Party even has electable candidates, this go-around.

If you try to move a mountain by shifting the whole thing at once, you'll either burn yourself out or break your back.  Go one stone at a time, though, and you might not see it moved in your lifetime, but you'll leave a smaller amount of work for the next person down the line.  And that, dear Nicki, is the bloody point.  So, are you going to help us lift some stones, or are you going to sit on the sidelines and complain that equipment we got to do it with isn't good enough?
Quote from: Bra'tac
Life for the sake of life means nothing.

Offline Svata

  • Doesn't even fucking know anymore
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1542
  • Gender: Male
  • No, seriously, fuck astrology.
Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #177 on: February 28, 2016, 01:14:38 am »
Bernie isn't my fucking lord and Savior, I'm just tired of what has become of the Democratic Party, and the fact that people can't seem to understand how rotten the party has become, due to them selling their souls for Wall Street cash.

*sighs*

Here goes nothing.

Nicki, what the fuck?  Do you think we're all just oblivious dipshits wandering through life with blinders sutured on to our eyelids?  We're aware of this, or at least I am.  You want to change party politics, then vote in the frigging primary where your vote matters a hell of a lot more than in the general election.  However, failing that, the Democratic Party is still a better bet than, as Niam pointed out, the GOP frontrunners which are either a toupee that comes across eerily like a fucking neo-Nazi, a sociopath that would gladly exploit every human being alive to advance his own agenda, or a glorified megaphone.

Bullshit write-ins and third party votes are worse than worthless, they could run the risk of actively sending us back to the metaphorical (or, if we're particularly unlucky, literal) Stone Age.  You're actively taking votes from people who are, again, at least going to use lube when they screw you.  Do we need campaign finance reform?  Duh.  How about universal healthcare and post-secondary education?  Yeah, I'd love for us to not be a bunch of Bronze Age savages, either.  Now then, you can do this one of two ways:

1) Help Bernie win the primary.  Even if he only gets a little bit of things done, he's at least less dirty than most.
2) If Bernie fails, despite your help, then at least help us not get a President that would send not just this country, but the rest of the world, into yet another global economic depression and might even start World War III.

Change is not always big, Nicki, and you're going to have to get bloody used to that.  The revolution is NOT now.  We can at least get some incremental improvement on social issues and get another shot, next time, to get some improvement on economic and political issues.  Politics is a long game, and you have to be willing to be patient and, most of all, thank your lucky fucking stars that the Democratic Party even has electable candidates, this go-around.

If you try to move a mountain by shifting the whole thing at once, you'll either burn yourself out or break your back.  Go one stone at a time, though, and you might not see it moved in your lifetime, but you'll leave a smaller amount of work for the next person down the line.  And that, dear Nicki, is the bloody point.  So, are you going to help us lift some stones, or are you going to sit on the sidelines and complain that equipment we got to do it with isn't good enough?

Pretty much this. Look, like I said, I support Sanders, but better Hillary than Hitler V 2.0.
"Politician" is the occupational equivalent of "Florida".

Offline RavynousHunter

  • Master Thief
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8108
  • Gender: Male
  • A man of no consequence.
    • My Twitter
Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #178 on: February 28, 2016, 01:17:09 am »
Aye.  Don't get me wrong, Sanders is cool.  While I think he'd have a hard time getting laws passed due to an obstructionist Congress, he is my ideal choice.  I'm just willing to accept compromise, is all.
Quote from: Bra'tac
Life for the sake of life means nothing.

Offline lord gibbon

  • That Weird Guy in the Corner
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 868
  • Gender: Male
  • living trivia machine
Re: 2016 Democratic Presidential Primaries
« Reply #179 on: February 28, 2016, 01:22:02 am »
Hey don't get me wrong. If Hillary is the nominee, and Colorado looks close, I'll vote for her. But it'll be with a sour taste in my mouth. I just don't trust her on the most important problem, the corporations. She's just too friendly with them.
Excuse me, sir, do you have a minute to talk about your lord and savior, Hannibal Barca?

Quote from: Seneca
Religion is regarded by the common man as true, by the wise man as false, and by the powerful man as useful
Yeah, if the pagans are so smart, why did Jesus invade Pagan-land on the back of a dragon and kill them all!