Author Topic: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet  (Read 87053 times)

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Offline Askold

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1455 on: July 08, 2018, 01:02:58 am »
"Diversity of thought" is a phrase used by Neo-Nazis though. Also by conservatives, Libertarians and anti-feminists.

https://www.theroot.com/diversity-of-thought-is-just-a-euphemism-for-white-supr-1825191839

The article has plenty of examples like Marshall DeRosa, a Florida Atlantic University professor teaches that "black supremacy" caused the US civil war, when confronted about this he used the term" diversity of thought" as a defense.

This is all part of Alt-Right and other racists using "free speech" as a shield when promoting hate. And you really have to consider who uses this phrase. You are likely to see people demanding "diversity of thought" so that they can go to a Pride rally and shout that Transwomen are just guys who chopped off their dick, preach that feminism is cancer in front of a women's shelter or go to a school and teach that the US civil war was all about states rights. What you won't see is someone demanding that a KKK rally should include a speaker from the ACLU so that there would be diversity in the speeches given.
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Offline Kanzenkankaku

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1456 on: July 08, 2018, 02:59:52 am »
The real problems with that post is
A) People saying feminism is bad aren't necessarily Nazis. They could be MRAs/MGTOW (which are bad, but not genocidal, lumping them together is wrong)
B) Not sure how "active" the parents are if they think its a sudden jump to the feminism is cancer part of youtube.
C) They blame youtube for hosting the videos but don't offer any feasible solution for how they should change the algorithm or w/e to prevent the "nazi" videos from being found by their son.

Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1457 on: July 08, 2018, 10:33:43 am »
"Diversity of thought" is a phrase used by Neo-Nazis though. Also by conservatives, Libertarians and anti-feminists.

https://www.theroot.com/diversity-of-thought-is-just-a-euphemism-for-white-supr-1825191839

The article has plenty of examples like Marshall DeRosa, a Florida Atlantic University professor teaches that "black supremacy" caused the US civil war, when confronted about this he used the term" diversity of thought" as a defense.

This is all part of Alt-Right and other racists using "free speech" as a shield when promoting hate. And you really have to consider who uses this phrase. You are likely to see people demanding "diversity of thought" so that they can go to a Pride rally and shout that Transwomen are just guys who chopped off their dick, preach that feminism is cancer in front of a women's shelter or go to a school and teach that the US civil war was all about states rights. What you won't see is someone demanding that a KKK rally should include a speaker from the ACLU so that there would be diversity in the speeches given.

1. Did you lump conservatives, libertarians, and anti-feminists in with neo-Nazis?

2. Yes, there are unsavory people using the phrase. But are they the only ones? I've heard the phrase a lot from people who are against the insanity and authoritarianism on college campuses.

The real problems with that post is
A) People saying feminism is bad aren't necessarily Nazis. They could be MRAs/MGTOW (which are bad, but not genocidal, lumping them together is wrong)
B) Not sure how "active" the parents are if they think its a sudden jump to the feminism is cancer part of youtube.
C) They blame youtube for hosting the videos but don't offer any feasible solution for how they should change the algorithm or w/e to prevent the "nazi" videos from being found by their son.

You say that like there aren't any legitimate reasons to dislike feminism. Two words: Duluth model.

The Duluth model is a program for fighting domestic violence created in 1981. Currently, it's the most common domestic abuse intervention program in America. It has a lot of problems, but I'm going to focus on one in particular. The feminist theory underlining the program is that men use violence in relationships to exert power and control, while women use violence to defend themselves and/or their children. Therefore, in cases of domestic violence, the man is always to blame, and must always be the one intervened against.

Yes, that's right: feminist theory has led to the institution of explicit and legally codified discrimination against men. Of course, there are feminists who will justify this blatant sexism by claiming that men are violent because patriarchal social norms taught them to be abusive, while women are violent only in self-defense. If this were the case, then you would expect domestic violence among lesbian couples to be virtually nonexistent. It's not. And even if men really are more likely to abuse their wives/girlfriends than vice-versa, that doesn't justify such blatant discrimination. According to FBI crime statistics, black people are more likely to commit crime against white people than the other way around. Should we preemptively assume that the black person is in the wrong if we see a fight between a white person and a black person?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 11:14:46 am by Lana Reverse »
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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1458 on: July 08, 2018, 11:25:35 am »
The real problems with that post is
A) People saying feminism is bad aren't necessarily Nazis. They could be MRAs/MGTOW (which are bad, but not genocidal, lumping them together is wrong)
B) Not sure how "active" the parents are if they think its a sudden jump to the feminism is cancer part of youtube.
C) They blame youtube for hosting the videos but don't offer any feasible solution for how they should change the algorithm or w/e to prevent the "nazi" videos from being found by their son.

A) True, but there is a not inconsiderable amount of overlap between the two.

B) YouTube's recommendations are slipshod at the best of times.  I've had it recommend things from that particular area after watching something from Jim Fucking Sterling, Son or YongYea, as examples.

C) Is for "curation."  By actual people, not algorithms, not even well-trained neural networks.  As it is, Google is almost totally hands-off when it comes to the content on YouTube.  Kinda like Steam.  Have real, actual humans look over reports of hate channels and/or videos, and make a determination according to established standards and practices.  Start spouting Nazi bullshit?  Start calling women "femoids" and anyone who can actually manage to get their dicks wet either "Chads" or "cucks?"  Users would report that, and warm, human bodies would look at that shit and be like "Yeah, these people are cumstains, GTFO."
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Offline Askold

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1459 on: July 08, 2018, 11:45:04 am »
I lumped in those groups because in this instance they use the same dog whistle term for the same reason. Their requests for diversity are in fact attempts to silence opinions and facts that they do not like particularly when those opinions and facts favour feminism or condemn racism.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1460 on: July 08, 2018, 12:24:33 pm »
I lumped in those groups because in this instance they use the same dog whistle term for the same reason. Their requests for diversity are in fact attempts to silence opinions and facts that they do not like particularly when those opinions and facts favour feminism or condemn racism.

Or maybe they just want to be heard. Not everything is some kind of sinister hypocrisy.

Direct question: are you for or against the principle of viewpoint diversity?

The real problems with that post is
A) People saying feminism is bad aren't necessarily Nazis. They could be MRAs/MGTOW (which are bad, but not genocidal, lumping them together is wrong)
B) Not sure how "active" the parents are if they think its a sudden jump to the feminism is cancer part of youtube.
C) They blame youtube for hosting the videos but don't offer any feasible solution for how they should change the algorithm or w/e to prevent the "nazi" videos from being found by their son.

A) True, but there is a not inconsiderable amount of overlap between the two.

Seriously? Have you ever actually talked to MRAs?

B) YouTube's recommendations are slipshod at the best of times.  I've had it recommend things from that particular area after watching something from Jim Fucking Sterling, Son or YongYea, as examples.

No argument there.

C) Is for "curation."  By actual people, not algorithms, not even well-trained neural networks.  As it is, Google is almost totally hands-off when it comes to the content on YouTube.  Kinda like Steam.  Have real, actual humans look over reports of hate channels and/or videos, and make a determination according to established standards and practices.  Start spouting Nazi bullshit?  Start calling women "femoids" and anyone who can actually manage to get their dicks wet either "Chads" or "cucks?"  Users would report that, and warm, human bodies would look at that shit and be like "Yeah, these people are cumstains, GTFO."

I'd rather Google not censor people, thank you very much.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 12:38:42 pm by Lana Reverse »
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Offline Askold

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1461 on: July 08, 2018, 01:16:48 pm »
There's nothing wrong with diversity, whether of opinions, viewpoints or types of people. It's just that the example you used was a person who clearly identified the Nazi-dogwhistle term and as usual you keep defending Nazis "accidentally" by trying to claim that others use the same dogwhistle.

If you google the phrase "diversity of thought" pretty much everyone using it is doing so to attack "liberals" in USA and make them seem hateful.

BTW, I have talked with MRAs and the overlap with Nazis is very real. They share values AND enemies and whether a person is a member of both groups or simply considers the other group to be an ally of theirs varies but it does happen.

 
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1462 on: July 08, 2018, 01:43:28 pm »
There's nothing wrong with diversity, whether of opinions, viewpoints or types of people. It's just that the example you used was a person who clearly identified the Nazi-dogwhistle term and as usual you keep defending Nazis "accidentally" by trying to claim that others use the same dogwhistle.

There you go again, accusing me of defending Nazis based entirely on your own warped perceptions. Do I have to remind you of that time you thought obvious satire was written in complete sincerity again? Once again, I don't think you have what it takes to be a good moderator.

And I'm not believing that what they saw was actual Nazi propaganda until I see visual evidence of it. Not saying they're lying, just that their views are so insane that I don't trust their judgment.

If you google the phrase "diversity of thought" pretty much everyone using it is doing so to attack "liberals" in USA and make them seem hateful.

Ah yes, the "just Google it!" argument. Truly the mark of intellectual rigor.

But seriously, even if I accept that people really are using it to attack American liberals, that doesn't necessarily mean there aren't good reasons. There really are self-proclaimed liberals who try to silence diversity of thought, and there have been for some time.

BTW, I have talked with MRAs and the overlap with Nazis is very real. They share values AND enemies and whether a person is a member of both groups or simply considers the other group to be an ally of theirs varies but it does happen.

Which ones? How many? There have been feminists - both past and present - who use explicitly racist language. Does that mean there's an "overlap" between all feminists and white supremacy?
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Offline Askold

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1463 on: July 09, 2018, 01:40:48 am »
...You don't seem to understand what the word "overlap" means.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1464 on: July 09, 2018, 03:26:38 am »
Eh, it's just more pissing and moaning from right-whingers who confuse being called out, belly laughed at or mocked for actual oppression. You want to see how much conservatives love diversity of thought? Say something like Australia's Senator Hanson Young did when she opined that "men who rape women are pigs!" Guess who spearheaded the attack on her? "Libertarian" Senator David Leyonhjelm who accused her of hating on all men and told her to "stop shagging men." Diversity of thought for me not thee is the "libertarian" position. No surprises there.

As for the Daluth thing, one flawed policy that's cited as feminist inspired does not throw shade on the notion that women should be treated as political and social equals which is what feminism is. If I cited one particular Republican's statement that God is a white supremacist as emblematic of the GOP overall you can bet Lana would be up in arms. In fact if you pointed to GOP voter suppression as an example of racist tendencies in today's GOP she'd be more so.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 03:28:18 am by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline Svata

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1465 on: July 09, 2018, 09:30:52 am »

I'd rather Google not censor people, thank you very much.


CURATION IS NOT CENSORSHIP. You don't have a RIGHT to be on youtube or steam.
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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1466 on: July 09, 2018, 04:07:25 pm »
Oh goody we've reached the freeze peach part of the debate.

Ironbite-where Lana et al completely forgets nobody is owed a platform.

Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1467 on: July 09, 2018, 04:57:43 pm »
Eh, it's just more pissing and moaning from right-whingers who confuse being called out, belly laughed at or mocked for actual oppression. You want to see how much conservatives love diversity of thought? Say something like Australia's Senator Hanson Young did when she opined that "men who rape women are pigs!" Guess who spearheaded the attack on her? "Libertarian" Senator David Leyonhjelm who accused her of hating on all men and told her to "stop shagging men." Diversity of thought for me not thee is the "libertarian" position. No surprises there.

As for the Daluth thing, one flawed policy that's cited as feminist inspired does not throw shade on the notion that women should be treated as political and social equals which is what feminism is. If I cited one particular Republican's statement that God is a white supremacist as emblematic of the GOP overall you can bet Lana would be up in arms. In fact if you pointed to GOP voter suppression as an example of racist tendencies in today's GOP she'd be more so.

-Feminism as a whole shouldn't be dismissed because of one flawed policy.
-This one guy is proof that all libertarians are hypocrites.

Pick one.

And as for the oppression aspect, many liberal academics have admitted that they'd discriminate against conservatives.


I'd rather Google not censor people, thank you very much.


CURATION IS NOT CENSORSHIP. You don't have a RIGHT to be on youtube or steam.

That sounds to me like you're willing to let private companies determine who gets to be a part of their platform. So why were you so upset when Steam relaxed its policy?

Oh goody we've reached the freeze peach part of the debate.

Ironbite-where Lana et al completely forgets nobody is owed a platform.

Funny you should say that. In Marsh v. Alabama, SCOTUS ruled that the rights of citizens under the Bill of Rights are more important than those of property owners. The case has some pretty interesting implications regarding social media.
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1468 on: July 09, 2018, 05:55:48 pm »

-Feminism as a whole shouldn't be dismissed because of one flawed policy.
-This one guy is proof that all libertarians are hypocrites.

Pick one.
Oh look a colossus of straw, shall we peek in side? Are there straw Trojans within?

Hey, not all libertarians are conservatives or crypto-fascists with beards, Noam Chomsky's alright.

The definition of feminism is contested mostly by people who describe themselves as non feminists, like you, who benefited massively from the battles feminists fought for them but that's a topic for another day, and feminists who believe in the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes. Most libertarians in English speaking countries subscribe to right wing libertarianism, certainly the Libertarian Party of the US does, Australia's David Leyonhjelm absolutely does and those libertarians are chiefly concerned with the maintenance of their own property rights. That's not something they themselves are contesting. The notion that feminist women have an agenda against men is something contested by feminists frequently.

I note that David Leyonhjelm had a twitter tantrum when a comedy show took the Mickey out of him and Rand Paul opposes locally elected representatives getting power to spend locally raised money. All of which is what happens when your dominant form of libertarianism is chiefly concerned with property rights.

Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1469 on: July 09, 2018, 07:06:49 pm »

-Feminism as a whole shouldn't be dismissed because of one flawed policy.
-This one guy is proof that all libertarians are hypocrites.

Pick one.
Oh look a colossus of straw, shall we peek in side? Are there straw Trojans within?

Hey, not all libertarians are conservatives or crypto-fascists with beards, Noam Chomsky's alright.

I wasn't sure what your scare quotes were intended to convey. If you didn't mean to tar all libertarians with the same brush, then I'm sorry.

The definition of feminism is contested mostly by people who describe themselves as non feminists, like you, who benefited massively from the battles feminists fought for them but that's a topic for another day, and feminists who believe in the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.

Yes, all feminists believe in the advocacy of women's rights, even if they have disagreements about approaches and underlying ideas. But not all of them do so under the banner of equality. Many do, but not all. And earlier, you stated this:

As for the Daluth thing, one flawed policy that's cited as feminist inspired does not throw shade on the notion that women should be treated as political and social equals which is what feminism is.

Maybe it's just me, but you seem to have a very loaded and reductionist definition of "feminism." I've misinterpreted you before (as in, just two posts ago), so I'd like to ask you if you think somebody has to identify as a feminist to believe men and women are equal.

Most libertarians in English speaking countries subscribe to right wing libertarianism, certainly the Libertarian Party of the US does, Australia's David Leyonhjelm absolutely does and those libertarians are chiefly concerned with the maintenance of their own property rights. That's not something they themselves are contesting. The notion that feminist women have an agenda against men is something contested by feminists frequently.

I note that David Leyonhjelm had a twitter tantrum when a comedy show took the Mickey out of him and Rand Paul opposes locally elected representatives getting power to spend locally raised money. All of which is what happens when your dominant form of libertarianism is chiefly concerned with property rights.

Is that really true of most libertarians, or just ones that tend to gather more attention? Not every advocate against police brutality chants about dead cops, after all.
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