Author Topic: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet  (Read 78306 times)

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Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1485 on: July 09, 2018, 10:27:00 pm »
Hey Lana KFC Australia once had an ad of a white bloke soothing a rowdy West Indies crowd with buckets of fried chicken which was pulled after it caused the internets to asplode. Are KFC Australia being oppressed?

Or does the company just want to keep selling buckets of salted grease and not be forever branded KKKFC. Could impact sales.

No. A business choosing to pull a commercial due to poor general reception is not being oppressed.
But a seller wanting to pull a product from their shelves is? I thought you were at least sympathetic to libertarians, who are you to tell someone what to do with their shelf?

Left-libertarians. I believe in preserving the rights of individuals, whether it be from the government, big business, or their fellow citizens.
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Offline Svata

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1486 on: July 09, 2018, 10:57:11 pm »
...Yes?  Just like I wouldn't sell Bibles in my bookstore.  Or serve store brand coffee at my restaurant.  A private entity is entitled to the determination as to what products it sells.  Just because Chick-fil-A doesn't sell tacos doesn't mean you can't go to Pancho Villa and down all the Tex-Mex you can handle.

What if we're talking not talking about a single community bookstore? Imagine a bookstore chain that holds a near-monopoly nationwide. Would it be okay for them to not carry Harry Potter books?


Then... you... go to another chain? Where they're laughing and rolling in the dough because one of their biggest competitors decided to not sell one of the best-selling book series of all time?
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Offline Eiki-mun

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1487 on: July 09, 2018, 11:04:16 pm »
...Yes?  Just like I wouldn't sell Bibles in my bookstore.  Or serve store brand coffee at my restaurant.  A private entity is entitled to the determination as to what products it sells.  Just because Chick-fil-A doesn't sell tacos doesn't mean you can't go to Pancho Villa and down all the Tex-Mex you can handle.

What if we're talking not talking about a single community bookstore? Imagine a bookstore chain that holds a near-monopoly nationwide. Would it be okay for them to not carry Harry Potter books?

Again, yes. A company has the right to choose what it does and does not carry. The size of the company is irrelevant. Another company that does sell Harry Potter books will come along and sell them to you. This is how capitalism works. You know capitalism, right?
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Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1488 on: July 09, 2018, 11:04:50 pm »
...Yes?  Just like I wouldn't sell Bibles in my bookstore.  Or serve store brand coffee at my restaurant.  A private entity is entitled to the determination as to what products it sells.  Just because Chick-fil-A doesn't sell tacos doesn't mean you can't go to Pancho Villa and down all the Tex-Mex you can handle.

What if we're talking not talking about a single community bookstore? Imagine a bookstore chain that holds a near-monopoly nationwide. Would it be okay for them to not carry Harry Potter books?


Then... you... go to another chain? Where they're laughing and rolling in the dough because one of their biggest competitors decided to not sell one of the best-selling book series of all time?

Again, "near-monopoly nationwide." We're assuming that it's impractical to go somewhere else.
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1489 on: July 09, 2018, 11:05:31 pm »
Hey Lana KFC Australia once had an ad of a white bloke soothing a rowdy West Indies crowd with buckets of fried chicken which was pulled after it caused the internets to asplode. Are KFC Australia being oppressed?

Or does the company just want to keep selling buckets of salted grease and not be forever branded KKKFC. Could impact sales.

No. A business choosing to pull a commercial due to poor general reception is not being oppressed.
But a seller wanting to pull a product from their shelves is? I thought you were at least sympathetic to libertarians, who are you to tell someone what to do with their shelf?

Left-libertarians. I believe in preserving the rights of individuals, whether it be from the government, big business, or their fellow citizens.
Is it left anything to demand a left wing bookseller stock copies of Mein Kampf just because you want to leaf through it?

And big business never stopped anybody buying the Hatred game. It just meant briefly that you had to order through the publishers website instead of the curators. Any inconvenience is not automatically a breach of your fundamental rights!

Also a science fiction scenario of one book behemoth  is not a threat to you any more than a Dalek or a Xenomorph!
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 11:08:29 pm by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline Svata

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1490 on: July 09, 2018, 11:21:34 pm »

Lana, I am going to indulge in a hyperbolic example here, and use it to ask you a few direct questions. It's not necessarily realistic, and I'm not saying that your argument invariably leads to this, so it's not a slippery slope. It might be a bit reductio ad absurdum, but I'm also not saying that you are necessarily supporting this.


So. A man owns a clothing store. Among other things, they sell T-shirts. Note, please, this is not a secondhand store. One day, a person comes in, wants to sell a shirt emblazoned with an black eagle holding a black wreath. Encircled in the wreath is a black swastika on a white background. Above this is the word Sieg. Below is Heil. On the back is an image of Hitler and a bunch of silhouettes saluting him, in the manner that is their custom. Is the man obligated to order a hundred of these shirts and sell them? What if he's black? Jewish? Roma? Gay? Any combination of these? Is he still obligated to do it?


Now, say the shirts aren't full of hate. Say, instead, that they're ratty, with holes worn or chewed in them. Is he obligated to sell them in his store? What if the shirts are obviously stolen? What if they're none of these, but the images of them aren't hateful, just... not his? (For example, what if the image is Mickey Mouse, and this man is not at all a representative of the Disney corporation. He's Joe Blow from the trailer park with 2 DUIs and who got busted for meth a while back. He don't work for Disney.) When, if ever, can someone refuse to carry a product?
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Offline Svata

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1491 on: July 09, 2018, 11:24:36 pm »

And big business never stopped anybody buying the Hatred game. It just meant briefly that you had to order through the publishers website instead of the curators. Any inconvenience is not automatically a breach of your fundamental rights!


Indeed! Also, it's possible to argue that the one good thing about capitalism is that you're gonna be able to find someone, somewhere, to sell you what you wanna buy. Might take you a bit of looking, but they're out there. They've got what you want. And they're willing to part with it. If you have the cash.
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1492 on: July 09, 2018, 11:46:21 pm »

And big business never stopped anybody buying the Hatred game. It just meant briefly that you had to order through the publishers website instead of the curators. Any inconvenience is not automatically a breach of your fundamental rights!


Indeed! Also, it's possible to argue that the one good thing about capitalism is that you're gonna be able to find someone, somewhere, to sell you what you wanna buy. Might take you a bit of looking, but they're out there. They've got what you want. And they're willing to part with it. If you have the cash.
Which is why this is bloody surreal. I'm a socialist arguing to a libertarian that imposing obligations on businesses to stop them deciding that they don't want to sell media for whatever reason constitutes an unreasonable restriction on their property rights.

Fucking bizzaro world!

Offline dpareja

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1493 on: July 09, 2018, 11:46:54 pm »
With respect to monopolies or near-monopolies, I think there can be reason for government investigation and intervention if the company in question is abusing its monopolistic position (that is, the government should be keeping a very close eye on them to make sure they're not, and crack down if they do).
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Offline Svata

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1494 on: July 09, 2018, 11:57:31 pm »
Also, yeah. "What if there's a near monopoly?!" Well, that why we have (had) anti-trust laws. To prevent LITERALLY THAT. A lot of other stuff too, but that's definitely on the list.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1495 on: July 10, 2018, 12:16:18 am »
Also, yeah. "What if there's a near monopoly?!" Well, that why we have (had) anti-trust laws. To prevent LITERALLY THAT. A lot of other stuff too, but that's definitely on the list.

Anti-trust laws don't necessarily prevent monopolies (for instance, certain things, like utilities, are natural monopolies--the most economically efficient outcome is for there to be one provider), they just make sure that those monopolies don't abuse their monopolistic position (by quashing nascent competitors, or jacking up prices, especially in natural monopolies).

Otherwise there'd be no incentive to build better mousetraps.
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It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

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Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1496 on: July 10, 2018, 12:40:57 am »
Hey Lana KFC Australia once had an ad of a white bloke soothing a rowdy West Indies crowd with buckets of fried chicken which was pulled after it caused the internets to asplode. Are KFC Australia being oppressed?

Or does the company just want to keep selling buckets of salted grease and not be forever branded KKKFC. Could impact sales.

No. A business choosing to pull a commercial due to poor general reception is not being oppressed.
But a seller wanting to pull a product from their shelves is? I thought you were at least sympathetic to libertarians, who are you to tell someone what to do with their shelf?

Left-libertarians. I believe in preserving the rights of individuals, whether it be from the government, big business, or their fellow citizens.
Is it left anything to demand a left wing bookseller stock copies of Mein Kampf just because you want to leaf through it?

And big business never stopped anybody buying the Hatred game. It just meant briefly that you had to order through the publishers website instead of the curators. Any inconvenience is not automatically a breach of your fundamental rights!

Also a science fiction scenario of one book behemoth  is not a threat to you any more than a Dalek or a Xenomorph!

This is a thought experiment.


Lana, I am going to indulge in a hyperbolic example here, and use it to ask you a few direct questions. It's not necessarily realistic, and I'm not saying that your argument invariably leads to this, so it's not a slippery slope. It might be a bit reductio ad absurdum, but I'm also not saying that you are necessarily supporting this.


So. A man owns a clothing store. Among other things, they sell T-shirts. Note, please, this is not a secondhand store. One day, a person comes in, wants to sell a shirt emblazoned with an black eagle holding a black wreath. Encircled in the wreath is a black swastika on a white background. Above this is the word Sieg. Below is Heil. On the back is an image of Hitler and a bunch of silhouettes saluting him, in the manner that is their custom. Is the man obligated to order a hundred of these shirts and sell them? What if he's black? Jewish? Roma? Gay? Any combination of these? Is he still obligated to do it?


Now, say the shirts aren't full of hate. Say, instead, that they're ratty, with holes worn or chewed in them. Is he obligated to sell them in his store? What if the shirts are obviously stolen? What if they're none of these, but the images of them aren't hateful, just... not his? (For example, what if the image is Mickey Mouse, and this man is not at all a representative of the Disney corporation. He's Joe Blow from the trailer park with 2 DUIs and who got busted for meth a while back. He don't work for Disney.) When, if ever, can someone refuse to carry a product?

...You actually make good points. Maybe I should re-evaluate my stance on free speech as it pertains to consumer goods.
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1497 on: July 10, 2018, 12:49:43 am »
Ok, this thought experiment has no real world consequences.

But your passion for this consequence free dilemma is inspiring.

Offline Eiki-mun

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1498 on: July 10, 2018, 01:14:48 am »
The beautiful thing about capitalism is that if the near-monopoly bookstore refuses to sell a particular, popular book, a more niche bookstore will happily pick up that opportunity and use it to become the next big bookstore. The solution to your thought experiment problem would literally solve itself with a little entrepreneurship. Hell, make a Kickstarter out of it!

And this is coming from a socialist.
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Offline Askold

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1499 on: July 10, 2018, 01:16:44 am »
...Yes?  Just like I wouldn't sell Bibles in my bookstore.  Or serve store brand coffee at my restaurant.  A private entity is entitled to the determination as to what products it sells.  Just because Chick-fil-A doesn't sell tacos doesn't mean you can't go to Pancho Villa and down all the Tex-Mex you can handle.

What if we're talking not talking about a single community bookstore? Imagine a bookstore chain that holds a near-monopoly nationwide. Would it be okay for them to not carry Harry Potter books?


Then... you... go to another chain? Where they're laughing and rolling in the dough because one of their biggest competitors decided to not sell one of the best-selling book series of all time?

Again, "near-monopoly nationwide." We're assuming that it's impractical to go somewhere else.

Dude.

You can buy games in stores all over the world. You can even buy games online. In fact, since you seem too lazy to use google: https://store.destructivecreations.pl/ Tadah! The company has a webstore of their own. You literally don't have to get off from your computer if you want to buy your violence-porn nihilist-fantasy game.

Same goes with a lot of other products today. Even if Wallmart doesn't sell something it doesn't mean that it is impossible for people to get it.

Heck, you seem to think that the tragedy of making it harder to buy edgy videogames is as big as Texas shutting down every abortion clinic in the state. And that my little Neo-Nazi is the difference between one store refusing (for a while) to sell a videogame and people being denied service and rights.

In fact, similar cases can be seen in other instances as well. A Republican politician who is thrown out of a restaurant will still find another restaurant that is willing to serve them and they can easily afford to go elsewhere. Depending on where you live in USA the nearest open abortion clinic could just be so far away that you can't afford to go there or will be greatly inconvenienced by the cost. The gay couple who won't get a marriage certificate likewise can't just go to a competitor to get one and them being denied service is a problem.

Someone being denied a platform to call people cucks or nigger-whores on Youtube or Reddit is still able to do so on other sites and that's not a major inconvenience for them.
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