Author Topic: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again  (Read 10106 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline davedan

  • Lord Cracker
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3039
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2016, 10:45:42 pm »
He proved the bias by orchestrating a campaign to rig the nomination for an outspoken right winger (of which he just happens to be one).

Also you aren't at all concerned that his statement of purpose might be a touch self serving?

Offline Ultimate Paragon

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8423
  • Gender: Male
  • Tougher than diamonds, stronger than steel
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2016, 10:49:36 pm »
He proved the bias by orchestrating a campaign to rig the nomination for an outspoken right winger (of which he just happens to be one).

Rig the nomination?  Hardly.  Even John Scalzi admitted he didn't do anything out of the ordinary.

Also you aren't at all concerned that his statement of purpose might be a touch self serving?

Yeah, that's a possibility.  Believe me, I have my reservations about the puppies too.

Offline davedan

  • Lord Cracker
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3039
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2016, 10:57:09 pm »
Really? If you did you couldn't state their purpose with such confidence.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8423
  • Gender: Male
  • Tougher than diamonds, stronger than steel
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2016, 11:04:35 pm »
Really? If you did you couldn't state their purpose with such confidence.

There's a difference between "self-serving" and "dishonest."

Offline davedan

  • Lord Cracker
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3039
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2016, 11:19:08 pm »
There's a difference between 'dishonest' and 'unreliable'.

Edit: Also it is illuminating that you can dismiss Rationalwiki in its entirety as a source because you know the author is so 'biased' but have no problem gulping down what this guy says without question.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 11:33:47 pm by davedan »

Offline Sigmaleph

  • Ungodlike
  • Administrator
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3515
    • sigmaleph on tumblr
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2016, 11:19:35 pm »
Did the Sad Puppies actually do anything this year? It was my understanding that only the Rabid ones did. Hence Vox Day.
Σא

Offline Ultimate Paragon

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8423
  • Gender: Male
  • Tougher than diamonds, stronger than steel
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2016, 11:44:54 pm »
Edit: Also it is illuminating that you can dismiss Rationalwiki in its entirety as a source because you know the author is so 'biased' but have no problem gulping down what this guy says without question.

The reactions seem to prove that he's at least partly right.

Did the Sad Puppies actually do anything this year? It was my understanding that only the Rabid ones did. Hence Vox Day.

I'm not sure, I haven't followed the drama that much.

Online Tolpuddle Martyr

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3454
  • Have you got thumbs? SHOW ME YOUR FUCKING THUMBS!
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2016, 12:02:09 am »
Just enough  to give us the benefit of your analysis eh?

Even Then

  • Guest
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2016, 12:03:27 am »
So what if people are basing their votes on the politics of the author? Many right-wing policies do harm and endanger several groups of people. Asking these people to suspend their own animosity towards someone who espouses these policies and to vote for people who think of them as lesser is the height of entitlement. I don't care if Orson Scott Card makes a scifi story that is like God's jizz on heavenly parchment, he's still a virulent homophobe who is actively trying to make life harder for me and mine, I'm not obligated to vote for his fuckdumpster ass.*

*this is a hypothetical, I neither know nor care if Card is a nominee

Offline Askold

  • Definitely not hiding a dark secret.
  • Global Moderator
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 7992
  • Gender: Male
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2016, 12:05:16 am »
It's very simple: The fandom is growing more and more "leftist" (I am using this term the way the puppies are, referring to anyone who isn't part of the alt-right group that makes up the puppies. You know, "leftists" the kinds of people who don't hate feminism, who like to see inclusive fiction that isn't just MANLY WHITE MEN SAVING THE DAY WHILE WOMEN ARE THERE ONLY AS SEX SYMBOLS! ...Minorities need not apply.) and rather than an organized assault on the core values the puppies love it's just quite natural that the people used to vote for things they liked.

Sure, there may be an backlash against a writer who is racist, homophobic or otherwise against what the majority of the fans like but I would like to point out that if a writer would officially come out to support things that the alt-right hates then there would be a similar backlash, with the difference that as the non-"leftists" are reducing in numbers the backlash wouldn't be quite as big. ...And why am I speaking hypothetically since this is exactly what the puppies are.

Another problem is that everyone likes to think that they make up the silent majority so the Puppies are a reaction to seeing that the world does not work the way these people assumed and instead of admitting that they and their beliefs are less popular they conjured up some conspiracy theory that they could blame instead.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline niam2023

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3678
  • Gender: Male
  • The Forum Chad
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2016, 12:12:07 am »
Ultie, let me ask you this - if a book was submitted by an unrepentent Nazi, who believes Hitler was 100% justified in murdering six million Jews, would you judge his book called "Utopia of the Ubermensch" for its content, or for the fact it was written by an unrepentent Nazi who includes that transgender people in his novel are burned alive?

Would you be able to separate your judgement of his book's writing from the atrocious political agenda?

You say we should judge a right wing book for its content and not for its political agenda, whereas the right wing looks for any excuse to call a book "shamelessly liberal." As if being a liberal is something you need to be ashamed of. By contrast espousing Republican politics doesn't get you nearly as much direct and conscious vitriol.
Living Life, Lifting, Waiting for Summer

Offline Ultimate Paragon

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8423
  • Gender: Male
  • Tougher than diamonds, stronger than steel
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2016, 12:15:12 am »
Ultie, let me ask you this - if a book was submitted by an unrepentent Nazi, who believes Hitler was 100% justified in murdering six million Jews, would you judge his book called "Utopia of the Ubermensch" for its content, or for the fact it was written by an unrepentent Nazi who includes that transgender people in his novel are burned alive?

Would you be able to separate your judgement of his book's writing from the atrocious political agenda?

You say we should judge a right wing book for its content and not for its political agenda, whereas the right wing looks for any excuse to call a book "shamelessly liberal." As if being a liberal is something you need to be ashamed of. By contrast espousing Republican politics doesn't get you nearly as much direct and conscious vitriol.

I'm talking about the politics of the authors themselves, not the books.

It's very simple: The fandom is growing more and more "leftist" (I am using this term the way the puppies are, referring to anyone who isn't part of the alt-right group that makes up the puppies. You know, "leftists" the kinds of people who don't hate feminism, who like to see inclusive fiction that isn't just MANLY WHITE MEN SAVING THE DAY WHILE WOMEN ARE THERE ONLY AS SEX SYMBOLS! ...Minorities need not apply.) and rather than an organized assault on the core values the puppies love it's just quite natural that the people used to vote for things they liked.

I'll let Larry do a little talking:

Quote
Many of you have never heard of me before, but the internet was quick to explain to you what a horrible person I am. There have been allegations of fraud, vote buying, log rolling, and making up fake accounts. The character assassination has started as well, and my detractors posted and tweeted and told anyone who would listen about how I was a racist, a homophobe, a misogynist, a rape apologist, an angry white man, a religious fanatic, and how I wanted to drag homosexuals to death behind my pickup truck.

The libel and slander over the last few days have been so ridiculous that my wife was contacted by people she hasn’t talked to for years, concerned that she was married to such a horrible, awful, hateful, bad person, and that they were worried for her safety.

I wish I was exaggerating. Don’t take my word for it. My readers have been collecting a lot of them in the comments of the previous Hugo post and on my Facebook page. Plug my name into Google for the last few days. Make sure to read the comments to the various articles too. They’re fantastic.

Of course, none of this stuff is true, but it was expected. I knew if I succeeded I would be attacked. To the perpetually outraged the truth doesn’t matter, just feelings and narrative. I’d actually like to thank all of those people making stuff up about me because they are proving the point I was trying to make to begin with.

Sure, there may be an backlash against a writer who is racist, homophobic or otherwise against what the majority of the fans like but I would like to point out that if a writer would officially come out to support things that the alt-right hates then there would be a similar backlash, with the difference that as the non-"leftists" are reducing in numbers the backlash wouldn't be quite as big. ...And why am I speaking hypothetically since this is exactly what the puppies are.

Why do you think they're alt-right?

Another problem is that everyone likes to think that they make up the silent majority so the Puppies are a reaction to seeing that the world does not work the way these people assumed and instead of admitting that they and their beliefs are less popular they conjured up some conspiracy theory that they could blame instead.

Quote
The last few days have been kind of awesome. I said that for the Hugo’s the writer’s politics were more important than the quality of their work. I was called a liar. Yet, within a couple of hours of the announcement there were multiple posts from the other side where groups of SJWs were strategizing how to make sure No Award beat me, and how to punish every other artist I recommended as well. Others were complaining that the rules needed to be changed to keep the undesirables out. All of this was while they proudly bragged how they had not read me, nor ever would… because tolerance. Hell if I know.

As the old saying goes, you aren't paranoid if they really are out to get you.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 12:20:26 am by Ultimate Paragon »

Online Tolpuddle Martyr

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3454
  • Have you got thumbs? SHOW ME YOUR FUCKING THUMBS!
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2016, 12:20:23 am »
Ultie, let me ask you this - if a book was submitted by an unrepentent Nazi, who believes Hitler was 100% justified in murdering six million Jews, would you judge his book called "Utopia of the Ubermensch" for its content, or for the fact it was written by an unrepentent Nazi who includes that transgender people in his novel are burned alive?

Would you be able to separate your judgement of his book's writing from the atrocious political agenda?

You say we should judge a right wing book for its content and not for its political agenda, whereas the right wing looks for any excuse to call a book "shamelessly liberal." As if being a liberal is something you need to be ashamed of. By contrast espousing Republican politics doesn't get you nearly as much direct and conscious vitriol.

I'm talking about the politics of the authors themselves, not the books.
Pretty sure "Utopia of the ubermensch" would indicate that the book might be a tad right wing in  tone.

Just a tad.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8423
  • Gender: Male
  • Tougher than diamonds, stronger than steel
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2016, 12:21:05 am »
Ultie, let me ask you this - if a book was submitted by an unrepentent Nazi, who believes Hitler was 100% justified in murdering six million Jews, would you judge his book called "Utopia of the Ubermensch" for its content, or for the fact it was written by an unrepentent Nazi who includes that transgender people in his novel are burned alive?

Would you be able to separate your judgement of his book's writing from the atrocious political agenda?

You say we should judge a right wing book for its content and not for its political agenda, whereas the right wing looks for any excuse to call a book "shamelessly liberal." As if being a liberal is something you need to be ashamed of. By contrast espousing Republican politics doesn't get you nearly as much direct and conscious vitriol.

I'm talking about the politics of the authors themselves, not the books.
Pretty sure "Utopia of the ubermensch" would indicate that the book might be a tad right wing in  tone.

Just a tad.

For the book itself?  Then yeah, there's nothing inherently wrong with voting it down based on politics.

Offline Askold

  • Definitely not hiding a dark secret.
  • Global Moderator
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 7992
  • Gender: Male
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2016, 12:28:01 am »
I'm talking about the politics of the authors themselves, not the books.

Is that a yes or no? Because you appear to be missing the point here. Is SJW-Sally writes a book and her ideologies are against everything you love will you judge the book based on the author or the content? If Nazi-fanboy-88 writes a book will you judge the book based on the author or the content?
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!