Author Topic: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington  (Read 80762 times)

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Offline dpareja

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #2625 on: November 08, 2018, 11:02:47 pm »
https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/populist-momentum-1.4895803

Quote
It is difficult, if not impossible, to unring the bell of populism once it has taken hold.

This week's U.S. midterm election results, in which Democrats regained control of the House but were dealt a stiff setback in the Senate, proved less a blue wave than a light misting; hardly the wholesale repudiation of President Donald Trump that some had hoped for. Despite a respectable House win, it appears voters were not clamouring for a return to "business as usual" governance.

Something tells me even if the Democrats take the Senate and even more of the House, if they didn't do so with a platform made by Bernie or the Democratic Socialists or the "real left" instead of the "Center Right" the Democrats allegedly are, you'd still complain.

Just face it - you are deeply associated with Messianic Politics.

You want a populist messiah to "fix" all the problems you see in America's Democracy. Those who seek a Messiah will never receive one.

Hey, remember what happened the last time the Democrats had a huge (257 seats) House majority and a Senate supermajority (58 + 2 independents)? Oh, right, they passed the Republican health care proposal, lost the House, lost too many state legislatures, got gerrymandered to the point where they need to win the House vote by 5 or 6 points to get a bare majority, lost the Senate, lost the Presidency, and now have five wingnut ideologues sitting on the Supreme Court with well over a hundred on the lower courts. And at least three of those "center-right" Democrats* got their asses handed to them in what should have been a wave election--and in which many progressive ballot initiatives passed quite easily, sometimes in the same states. (See: Missouri.)

The issue isn't the platform on which they take the House, Senate and/or Presidency. It's what they do once they have them.

*There were arguably five who were easy pickings for the Republicans in a normal year: Manchin, Heitkamp, Donnelly, McCaskill, and Tester. Heitkamp, Donnelly, and McCaskill lost. Manchin won, but by twenty points less than he did in 2012. Tester's margin, meanwhile, only dropped by about a point, and Tester is quite good on one issue in particular: corruption.

EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlTfjcJ77ls

Richard Ojeda, who posted the best improvement of any candidate over their party's 2016 Presidential candidate in the comparable race--Hillary Clinton lost WV-3 by 49 points, he lost by around 13 or 14--is running for President in 2020.

Honestly, I thought he'd take on Sen. Capito.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 03:19:31 pm by dpareja »
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

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Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline ironbite

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #2626 on: November 12, 2018, 10:16:12 pm »
Nah.  Seems he's got a bone to pick with Trump and honestly, he might actually be the guy to unseat the Orange Piss Pot.\

Ironbite-but we'll see what the rest of the field looks like.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #2627 on: November 12, 2018, 10:22:19 pm »
Nah.  Seems he's got a bone to pick with Trump and honestly, he might actually be the guy to unseat the Orange Piss Pot.\

Ironbite-but we'll see what the rest of the field looks like.

If he can make it through the Democratic primary--voting for Trump in 2016, whatever his reasons and however critical of him he is now, will hurt him.

I think he's more likely to have the sort of effect Larry Lessig did--Lessig pushed the issue of money in politics to greater prominence in the 2016 primary, Ojeda will probably force the other candidates to adopt a more firebrand populist stance.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Eiki-mun

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #2628 on: November 13, 2018, 12:01:02 am »
I'm certainly not about to vote for him in the primary. The last thing we need is a Trump voter as the Democratic candidate in the general election - can you imagine how bad that would be? Trump can just respond to any criticism of him with "and you voted for me", and he'll win the public opinion battle in a landslide.

Give us someone else, please.
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Offline Id82

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #2629 on: November 13, 2018, 01:05:34 am »
He may be a good democrat for West Virginia but nationally he would be terrible for a few reasons:
1. The media would paint him as Trump lite. Democrats won't get excited to vote for someone that's just like Trump. It will be like 2004 all over again.
2. He's anti abortion. So you've already alienated women voters especially now that women are turning out to vote in record numbers for Democrats, and want someone to stand for them.
3. He's pro gun. There's nothing wrong with being pro gun per say. But a lot of young voters are getting sick of the NRA and their bull shit.
4. He voted for Trump and Mccain and George W Bush.

Democrats don't need a populist candidate. They need someone that inspires and excites them. Not someone that creates fear and uncertainty. Democrats fall in love Republicans fall in line.  If you're going to put a right of center Democrat on your ticket than wave goodbye to most of your voters.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #2630 on: November 13, 2018, 02:05:31 am »
He may be a good democrat for West Virginia but nationally he would be terrible for a few reasons:
1. The media would paint him as Trump lite. Democrats won't get excited to vote for someone that's just like Trump. It will be like 2004 all over again.
2. He's anti abortion. So you've already alienated women voters especially now that women are turning out to vote in record numbers for Democrats, and want someone to stand for them.
3. He's pro gun. There's nothing wrong with being pro gun per say. But a lot of young voters are getting sick of the NRA and their bull shit.
4. He voted for Trump and Mccain and George W Bush.

Democrats don't need a populist candidate. They need someone that inspires and excites them. Not someone that creates fear and uncertainty. Democrats fall in love Republicans fall in line.  If you're going to put a right of center Democrat on your ticket than wave goodbye to most of your voters.

Which is why I suspect he'll drop out of the Presidential race and look to challenge Sen. Capito.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #2631 on: November 15, 2018, 08:42:15 pm »
This is a year old story but this is the first time I encountered it and it serves as another reminder of the damage the Republican congress did. Satellites critically important to studying the effects of climate change in the Arctic have a limited lifespan so the next one was waiting to be launched. The congress decided that the storing expenses are too high so they ordered it dismantled. Thanks to this the earliest date the next satellite can be expected to be ready for launch is in 2023 while the three satellites that were still operating when the article was written were already all past their shelf life. Luckily there is no hurry with the climate research, right?


Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #2632 on: November 15, 2018, 08:51:44 pm »
Meanwhile, Dem governor of New York Andrew Cuomo is promising Amazon a taxpayer funded helipad for their executives. https://splinternews.com/will-new-york-resist-the-urge-to-give-amazon-literally-1830404202. Niam and Ironbite, take note. This is why the difference between corporatist Democrats and populist Democrats is really fucking important. The former, despite the D in front of their names, are functionally no different to the Republicans.

Offline niam2023

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #2633 on: November 15, 2018, 09:17:15 pm »
Yes, there is a lot of stuff we corporate darklords are bad with, but to say we're functionally no different from the party that's okay with White Nationalists, who has had a "political pedophile" run under their ticket, has had multiple outright Nazis run for office under their ticket, and who has stolen elections, disenfranchised millions, and would openly pine for a Gilead-like dystopia...

...that comes off as incredibly, incredibly intellectually dishonest.

Giving Amazon a Helipad for their executives =/= "I'm Okay With Nazis".
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #2634 on: November 15, 2018, 09:22:13 pm »
Yes, there is a lot of stuff we corporate darklords are bad with, but to say we're functionally no different from the party that's okay with White Nationalists, who has had a "political pedophile" run under their ticket, has had multiple outright Nazis run for office under their ticket, and who has stolen elections, disenfranchised millions, and would openly pine for a Gilead-like dystopia...

...that comes off as incredibly, incredibly intellectually dishonest.

Giving Amazon a Helipad for their executives =/= "I'm Okay With Nazis".

Correct.

But shit like what Gov. Cuomo is promising turns off the Democratic base.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline ironbite

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #2635 on: November 15, 2018, 09:29:16 pm »
Yeah it does and therefore he shouldn't do it.  But I'll take his ass over whatever is in the GOP right now.

Ironbite-lesser evil is still the lesser of two evils after all.

Offline niam2023

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #2636 on: November 15, 2018, 09:52:08 pm »
And you don't see Governor Cuomo rolling over for President Trump.

Me personally, I see the appeal of progressive measures, heck I agree with most of them, I just can't stand the insistence on absolutistic morality, purity and such.
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Offline ironbite

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #2637 on: November 15, 2018, 09:59:25 pm »
Now that niam's brought this up, I'm gonna say it.  Purity politics is why the GOP has such a stranglehold on our political systems right now.  Because we on the left have said that nothing short of perfection will do, we've let the right just run anyone and anything they want and win.  Because we're so obsessed with purity.  As long as my guy isn't a slaving slobbering moron, I will happily vote for him because I know for a fact, anyone the Right runs is gonna be 1000000000 times worse.

Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #2638 on: November 15, 2018, 10:21:57 pm »
I have to say, I believe the exact opposite is the problem. The fact that voters will ultimately accept what's given to them is why the vast majority of Dems are Republican lite. By holding your guys to an actual standard that's a little higher than merely having a D next to their name, and making it clear to them that taking that sweet, sweet lobbyist money and being a Republican in practice is political suicide is how you actually get proper left wing (or in your guy's case, centrist) candidates in office. Yes, picking your battles is important, but there is such a thing as going too far in the opposite direction, and accepting the same as the other side, but with less racist and/or Bible thumping rhetoric is most definitely that.

That's why not necessarily Republicans, but Elitists in general of all party affiliations, have such a stranglehold on the US and most of the rest of the democratic world.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 10:35:24 pm by Art Vandelay »

Offline dpareja

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #2639 on: November 15, 2018, 11:15:26 pm »
I have to say, I believe the exact opposite is the problem. The fact that voters will ultimately accept what's given to them is why the vast majority of Dems are Republican lite. By holding your guys to an actual standard that's a little higher than merely having a D next to their name, and making it clear to them that taking that sweet, sweet lobbyist money and being a Republican in practice is political suicide is how you actually get proper left wing (or in your guy's case, centrist) candidates in office. Yes, picking your battles is important, but there is such a thing as going too far in the opposite direction, and accepting the same as the other side, but with less racist and/or Bible thumping rhetoric is most definitely that.

That's why not necessarily Republicans, but Elitists in general of all party affiliations, have such a stranglehold on the US and most of the rest of the democratic world.

And this is why I think primaries are one of the best parts of the US system: you can potentially force the parties to accept who you want, not who they want.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.