Author Topic: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington  (Read 84409 times)

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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #165 on: December 09, 2016, 02:28:18 pm »
Unfortunately, its not quite that simple.  Gitmo has several people that went in with no trial and with little cause.  Releasing them would require to admitting to ruining the lives of several people; any administration that did it would bear the brunt of the backlash and significantly harm their chances of reelection.
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Offline Askold

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #166 on: December 09, 2016, 03:01:38 pm »
Unfortunately, its not quite that simple.  Gitmo has several people that went in with no trial and with little cause.  Releasing them would require to admitting to ruining the lives of several people; any administration that did it would bear the brunt of the backlash and significantly harm their chances of reelection.

...And once again USA is going to ignore the horrible stuff they did because they don't want to admit that they do horrible stuff.

And saying "but the politicians don't care about it" only matters if you live in a country where the voters don't get to pick the politicians.
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Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #167 on: December 09, 2016, 03:10:40 pm »
Unfortunately, its not quite that simple.  Gitmo has several people that went in with no trial and with little cause.  Releasing them would require to admitting to ruining the lives of several people; any administration that did it would bear the brunt of the backlash and significantly harm their chances of reelection.

...And once again USA is going to ignore the horrible stuff they did because they don't want to admit that they do horrible stuff.

And saying "but the politicians don't care about it" only matters if you live in a country where the voters don't get to pick the politicians.

>Implying the voters still pick the politicians in America

In all seriousness, I'm not sure how much real power the voters still have. Look at all the influence big corporations, the media, and special interest groups have over the government.
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #168 on: December 09, 2016, 03:43:24 pm »
I don't, I know it's an outsiders view but the US isn't a democracy. It's an oligarchy. It's why the Dems ignored working class voters and the Repugs used them with cheerful cynicism.

Right now one oligarchy faction has chosen a dangerous clown as their public face, it doesn't mean they'll let him be their God emperor. He's merely useful to them right now. If he ceases to be useful, like Nixon they'll toss him under the bus.

None of this means that the symptoms of fascism or dictatorship can't take place. Attacks on civil rights, attacks on the press, attacks on voting rights. Police brutality and the use of military tactics to quash dissent. All of this is already happening. It's worth remembering that under the legal framework that Americans still have Japanese internment happened, death squads (the original KKK) happened, Joseph McCarthy's Un American Activities committee happened and yes, government sanction of torture and invasion of sovereign states on the flimsiest of pretexts happened.

What I find interesting about the history of Fascism is that people remember the strongmen themselves but not the oligarchs standing behind them. It's worth remembering that Mussolini's march on Rome was an attempt to quash socialist opposition and a general strike. Strongmen are the cudgel of the ruling classes, they're pulled out when public anger towards them gets particularly acute. That's the time to divide and rule that anger, rally some of it behind them and squish the remainder for "disloyalty", "being unpatriotic" or whatever.

Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #169 on: December 09, 2016, 04:33:38 pm »
I don't, I know it's an outsiders view but the US isn't a democracy. It's an oligarchy. It's why the Dems ignored working class voters and the Repugs used them with cheerful cynicism.

Right now one oligarchy faction has chosen a dangerous clown as their public face, it doesn't mean they'll let him be their God emperor. He's merely useful to them right now. If he ceases to be useful, like Nixon they'll toss him under the bus.

None of this means that the symptoms of fascism or dictatorship can't take place. Attacks on civil rights, attacks on the press, attacks on voting rights. Police brutality and the use of military tactics to quash dissent. All of this is already happening. It's worth remembering that under the legal framework that Americans still have Japanese internment happened, death squads (the original KKK) happened, Joseph McCarthy's Un American Activities committee happened and yes, government sanction of torture and invasion of sovereign states on the flimsiest of pretexts happened.

What I find interesting about the history of Fascism is that people remember the strongmen themselves but not the oligarchs standing behind them. It's worth remembering that Mussolini's march on Rome was an attempt to quash socialist opposition and a general strike. Strongmen are the cudgel of the ruling classes, they're pulled out when public anger towards them gets particularly acute. That's the time to divide and rule that anger, rally some of it behind them and squish the remainder for "disloyalty", "being unpatriotic" or whatever.

You're assuming Trump is a friend of "the oligarchy". Not saying you're necessarily wrong, just that it's a bit early to judge. He's not even in office yet.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #170 on: December 09, 2016, 05:17:39 pm »
Given his proposed cabinet appointments, I'd say he's kowtowing to the oligarchy at a minimum.
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #171 on: December 09, 2016, 05:28:46 pm »

You're assuming Trump is a friend of "the oligarchy". Not saying you're necessarily wrong, just that it's a bit early to judge. He's not even in office yet.

Trump is as literal an avatar of an oligarch as you can get, he's a lot closer to that than a Fascist. Trump believes in Trump, Trump thinks he's entitled to women's pussies, the United States of America and the adoration of all because he's rich. He named his company Scion FFS. A Scion is a lineal descendant of someone who inherits wealth and power.

Offline ironbite

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #172 on: December 09, 2016, 07:03:03 pm »
Yeah but he's a friend of himself first, not anyone else.  Everything he does is done for the advantage of himself first and everyone else can get fucked.  That might be what ultimately saves us.

Ironbite-Trump's attempts to win back that 3 million he lost in this election which grates on his soul.

Online niam2023

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #173 on: December 10, 2016, 12:21:30 am »
Keep in mind Hitler himself made it clear his Nazi Party was a friend of big business and would not fundamentally change Germany.

Take a look at how that went.

The powerful political people of Germany thought they could control and use Hitler as a public face to enrich themselves. Instead, Hitler proceeded to concentrate power entirely within the position he held, gave the SS a monopoly on force within the state, and made it so businesses could only stay as long as they served him, otherwise their leadership went away and was replaced by Nazi Yes-Men.

We have to be careful about this.

Trump has powerful tools at his disposal, such as the "PATRIOT" Act, and a number of defense bills we only tentatively trusted Obama with. The Nazis could not win the popular vote - they got a tiny percentage and got as far as they did on a concession. Trump's people got him into office without the concession.

I don't say this to say Trump literally is Hitler. I'm saying he embodies many of the same disturbed forces Hitler embodied, and has advantages and power even the German Fuhrer did not have. Call him a clown, but remember that clowns can be very frightening indeed if given the proper utencils.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #174 on: December 10, 2016, 05:41:03 pm »
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38258967

Goddamnit, Hillary.

In the wake of the "Pizzagate" bullshit, Hillary Clinton has made a speech calling for the government to crack down on "fake news."

Because that's totally OK and not in violation of the First Amendment and totally not what totalitarian regimes like China do and absolutely a power you want Donald Trump to have, right?
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Id82

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #175 on: December 11, 2016, 12:04:49 am »
I'm not too worried about that and am more worried about Trump choosing exxon mobil CEO as secretary of state. A man who has no government or foreign policy experience. By drain the swamp I guess Trump meant get rid of anyone that might have an inkling of what they're doing and putting all of his rich friends or people who said nice things about him in power.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #176 on: December 11, 2016, 12:16:15 am »
I'm not too worried about that and am more worried about Trump choosing exxon mobil CEO as secretary of state. A man who has no government or foreign policy experience. By drain the swamp I guess Trump meant get rid of anyone that might have an inkling of what they're doing and putting all of his rich friends or people who said nice things about him in power.

Oh, I agree. That's way more concerning.

But seriously, her first speech since the election and it's about (further) restraining civil liberties? Not about how every single one of Trump's announced cabinet appointments is horrible? Not about how his policy proposals are going to devastate the middle and working classes for the benefit of the rich? Not a mea culpa about misreading the electorate and taking fucktons of donor money, or choosing Kaine instead of someone like Warren as a running mate, or campaigning on identity politics and naughty language instead of the issues? (To quote a certain former president, "It's the economy, stupid.")

A certain Ludacris song describes exactly what the Democratic establishment has to do now.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Askold

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #177 on: December 11, 2016, 02:25:56 am »
Cracking down on fake news is not totalitarian. Censoring people before they have said anything is but if they have repeatedly said something that is illegal or in this case propaganda to fool people then shutting them up is ok. At least that is how Finland treats the freedom of speech and even if the laws in USA are different it still doesn't mean that any deviation from the US way automatically makes you into a Commie-Nazi.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline dpareja

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #178 on: December 11, 2016, 02:31:02 am »
Cracking down on fake news is not totalitarian. Censoring people before they have said anything is but if they have repeatedly said something that is illegal or in this case propaganda to fool people then shutting them up is ok. At least that is how Finland treats the freedom of speech and even if the laws in USA are different it still doesn't mean that any deviation from the US way automatically makes you into a Commie-Nazi.

The problem is, who decides what's fake? If you want to sue for libel after the fact, OK, but the impression I got was that she was arguing that somebody should step in before stories like the "Pizzagate" nonsense ever see the light of day.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Online niam2023

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #179 on: December 11, 2016, 03:08:13 am »
In my opinion, nonsense like that should in all honesty be called the utter tripe it is and forced out of focus by the media.

However it appears Clinton said something you deemed unfavorable, thus in a topic about a potentially very dangerous fascist you felt compelled to bring up Clinton (again) as if what she did was somehow equal to something Trump is out to do.

...Why?
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