Author Topic: MORE IMPORTANT THINGS  (Read 415 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Eiki-mun

  • der Löwe aus Mitternacht
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1367
  • Gender: Male
  • On the fields of Breitenfeld.
    • Main Personal Blog
Re: MORE IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2018, 10:30:51 am »
Well most people would chose surviving and going to jail over avoiding the police and getting murdered.

Funny how, in practice, that doesn't happen. In fact it's quite the opposite - many if not the vast majority of prostitutes in America (where it is legal) choose to avoid the police and risk getting murdered, rather than "go to jail and survive", as you put it.
There is no plague more evil and vile to watch spread than the plague that is the Von Habsburg dynasty.

Offline Jacob Harrison

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 520
  • Gender: Male
Re: MORE IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2018, 12:44:20 pm »
Well most people would chose surviving and going to jail over avoiding the police and getting murdered.

Funny how, in practice, that doesn't happen. In fact it's quite the opposite - many if not the vast majority of prostitutes in America (where it is legal) choose to avoid the police and risk getting murdered, rather than "go to jail and survive", as you put it.

I was referring to situations where it becomes known to them that a serial killer is on the loose. They might go to the police and hide the fact that they were involved in prostitution.

Offline Skybison

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 881
Re: MORE IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2018, 12:55:19 pm »
Jacob, most women who are sex workers don't do the work by choice, but because of poverty.  Sex work is the best paying job they can get and they need the work to keep themselves and their children fed.  Others struggle with drug addiction, and must engage in sex work to support themselves

You don't want them to sell sex.  But are you ready to actually help them by supporting government programs to fight poverty and help those with drug problems?  And if not, what practical solutions do you support?  Because to condemn sex work with solving the underlining problem won't solve the problem.

Offline dpareja

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 4362
Re: MORE IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2018, 01:58:16 pm »
Well most people would chose surviving and going to jail over avoiding the police and getting murdered.

Funny how, in practice, that doesn't happen. In fact it's quite the opposite - many if not the vast majority of prostitutes in America (where it is legal) choose to avoid the police and risk getting murdered, rather than "go to jail and survive", as you put it.

I was referring to situations where it becomes known to them that a serial killer is on the loose. They might go to the police and hide the fact that they were involved in prostitution.

Hiding that you're a sex worker can be hard to do when you're asking for protective custody. The police don't extend that to just anyone, they'll want to know why.

Get rid of the laws that make it impossible to be a prostitute safely (and I include Canada's current scheme in that, since it makes every client a criminal, rather than just some percentage of them) and then sure, they might--or they could hire bodyguards and screeners and work in monitored places like bordellos rather than having to go into back alleys or clients' cars.

Quite simply, legal, regulated prostitution is far safer for all concerned than the status quo in many places.

Plus the tax revenues from legal prostitution can go towards fighting sex trafficking (rather than having to spend money from other sources on that).

And making religious arguments on this forum will get you pretty much nowhere, so don't bother, especially since secular morality is demonstrably superior to any religious morality.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Online Lana Reverse

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 938
  • Gender: Female
Re: MORE IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2018, 02:04:43 pm »
Well most people would chose surviving and going to jail over avoiding the police and getting murdered.

Funny how, in practice, that doesn't happen. In fact it's quite the opposite - many if not the vast majority of prostitutes in America (where it is legal) choose to avoid the police and risk getting murdered, rather than "go to jail and survive", as you put it.

I was referring to situations where it becomes known to them that a serial killer is on the loose. They might go to the police and hide the fact that they were involved in prostitution.

Hiding that you're a sex worker can be hard to do when you're asking for protective custody. The police don't extend that to just anyone, they'll want to know why.

Get rid of the laws that make it impossible to be a prostitute safely (and I include Canada's current scheme in that, since it makes every client a criminal, rather than just some percentage of them) and then sure, they might--or they could hire bodyguards and screeners and work in monitored places like bordellos rather than having to go into back alleys or clients' cars.

Quite simply, legal, regulated prostitution is far safer for all concerned than the status quo in many places.

Plus the tax revenues from legal prostitution can go towards fighting sex trafficking (rather than having to spend money from other sources on that).

And making religious arguments on this forum will get you pretty much nowhere, so don't bother, especially since secular morality is demonstrably superior to any religious morality.

...Ooh, he's not going to like that.

Beware those who hate the rich more than they love the poor.

Offline Jacob Harrison

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 520
  • Gender: Male
Re: MORE IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2018, 04:01:19 pm »
Well most people would chose surviving and going to jail over avoiding the police and getting murdered.

Funny how, in practice, that doesn't happen. In fact it's quite the opposite - many if not the vast majority of prostitutes in America (where it is legal) choose to avoid the police and risk getting murdered, rather than "go to jail and survive", as you put it.

I was referring to situations where it becomes known to them that a serial killer is on the loose. They might go to the police and hide the fact that they were involved in prostitution.

Hiding that you're a sex worker can be hard to do when you're asking for protective custody. The police don't extend that to just anyone, they'll want to know why.

Get rid of the laws that make it impossible to be a prostitute safely (and I include Canada's current scheme in that, since it makes every client a criminal, rather than just some percentage of them) and then sure, they might--or they could hire bodyguards and screeners and work in monitored places like bordellos rather than having to go into back alleys or clients' cars.

Quite simply, legal, regulated prostitution is far safer for all concerned than the status quo in many places.

Plus the tax revenues from legal prostitution can go towards fighting sex trafficking (rather than having to spend money from other sources on that).

And making religious arguments on this forum will get you pretty much nowhere, so don't bother, especially since secular morality is demonstrably superior to any religious morality.

It is much easier to prosecute a known illegal sex trafficking operation than one that disguised itself as a legal prostitution buisness because you wouldn’t have to worry about the supervising law enforcement becoming involved in it.

Offline Askold

  • Definitely not hiding a dark secret.
  • Global Moderator
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 7812
  • Gender: Male
Re: MORE IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2018, 04:19:14 pm »
Objection! Why would there be no need to worry about law enforcement being involved with crime ONLY if prostitution is illegal?

What on Earth do you think magically makes police untouchable when prostitution is illegal but suddenly makes them take bribes if prostitution is legalized? This argument makes no sense because the threat of corruption exists in both scenarios ...and we have already explained several other reasons why things get better for everyone with legalized prostitution.

And here's another one: It has been proven that people will generally choose the legal option. Even though sex trafficking can exist even if prostitution is legalized when customers have the option of going to a legal bordello or whatever they will most of the time choose the legal option. Many of the customers are only choosing the illegal option because there is no legal option. Therefore legalizing prostitution will draw money away from criminals by reducing their potential customers AND reducing their potential employees (as many of the women who willingly choose to work as prostitutes can now do it legally and protected so there's no need to turn to criminals and the victims of sex trafficking can go to the police without fear of ending up in jail.)

If you had just said that you don't like prostitution and that you don't think it is morally right then we could either debate the moral ramifications or agree to disagree but instead you insist on making up stuff that makes no sense.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline dpareja

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 4362
Re: MORE IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2018, 04:37:00 pm »
Not only that, but illegal sex trafficking rings have a much greater incentive to look to buy off corruptible cops than legal bordellos (the former being illegal and the other not), so I would submit that the risk of corruption is actually higher the more powerful the traffickers become.

As for ensuring that the legal brothels themselves do not become fronts for traffickers, this is one place where the regulation comes in: to remain legal, they would have to be regularly inspected to make sure that they're completely on the level. (Yes, the inspectors could be bought off, too, but that's a risk with all regulatory schemes, so any argument against this is basically an argument against regulation generally--I hope you like horrible diseases in your food.) Plus with both sex workers and clients not having to worry about prosecution, anyone who suspects something untoward could go to the police without fear of having their own history looked into.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Askold

  • Definitely not hiding a dark secret.
  • Global Moderator
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 7812
  • Gender: Male
Re: MORE IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2018, 05:37:13 pm »
Think of it like this: After prohibition ended in Finland bars and alcohol stores began to sell alcohol again. Just because all the drinking places had previously been illegal this didn't mean that criminals continued to own all the market. We were quite able to police the bars and the stores and crime took a drastic drop.

Heck, even now I can walk into a random bar in Finland and know that it would be extremely rare for it to be a front of a criminal organization selling illegal booze.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline Jacob Harrison

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 520
  • Gender: Male
Re: MORE IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2018, 05:39:29 pm »
Not only that, but illegal sex trafficking rings have a much greater incentive to look to buy off corruptible cops than legal bordellos (the former being illegal and the other not), so I would submit that the risk of corruption is actually higher the more powerful the traffickers become.

As for ensuring that the legal brothels themselves do not become fronts for traffickers, this is one place where the regulation comes in: to remain legal, they would have to be regularly inspected to make sure that they're completely on the level. (Yes, the inspectors could be bought off, too, but that's a risk with all regulatory schemes, so any argument against this is basically an argument against regulation generally--I hope you like horrible diseases in your food.) Plus with both sex workers and clients not having to worry about prosecution, anyone who suspects something untoward could go to the police without fear of having their own history looked into.

But most cops crack down on illegal organizations because they hear reports of crime going on, while there usually are far less reports of illegal activities in a legal organization than there is about an illegal organization.

Offline Askold

  • Definitely not hiding a dark secret.
  • Global Moderator
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 7812
  • Gender: Male
Re: MORE IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2018, 05:55:41 pm »
So...

Do you like think that police are powerless to prevent crimes that happen in, I-dunno, McDonald's? Local plumber breaks crime and the police can't do anything about it because he has a company and he did the tax fraud there?

How old are you? Just asking because this sounds more and more like a 12-year old revealing accidentally that he has no idea of how the world works. At the very least you do not appear to understand police work or laws in general (which was quite apparent with your fantasies about rape, revolution and military conquests.)
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline Jacob Harrison

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 520
  • Gender: Male
Re: MORE IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2018, 06:10:07 pm »
So...

Do you like think that police are powerless to prevent crimes that happen in, I-dunno, McDonald's? Local plumber breaks crime and the police can't do anything about it because he has a company and he did the tax fraud there?

How old are you? Just asking because this sounds more and more like a 12-year old revealing accidentally that he has no idea of how the world works. At the very least you do not appear to understand police work or laws in general (which was quite apparent with your fantasies about rape, revolution and military conquests.)

Of course not, but I am saying that it is easier for crime to be reported when it happens outside of law enforcement than inside law enforcement.

Online Lana Reverse

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 938
  • Gender: Female
Re: MORE IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2018, 07:00:10 pm »
So...

Do you like think that police are powerless to prevent crimes that happen in, I-dunno, McDonald's? Local plumber breaks crime and the police can't do anything about it because he has a company and he did the tax fraud there?

How old are you? Just asking because this sounds more and more like a 12-year old revealing accidentally that he has no idea of how the world works. At the very least you do not appear to understand police work or laws in general (which was quite apparent with your fantasies about rape, revolution and military conquests.)

Of course not, but I am saying that it is easier for crime to be reported when it happens outside of law enforcement than inside law enforcement.

Say what?
Beware those who hate the rich more than they love the poor.

Offline Jacob Harrison

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 520
  • Gender: Male
Re: MORE IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2018, 07:32:48 pm »
So...

Do you like think that police are powerless to prevent crimes that happen in, I-dunno, McDonald's? Local plumber breaks crime and the police can't do anything about it because he has a company and he did the tax fraud there?

How old are you? Just asking because this sounds more and more like a 12-year old revealing accidentally that he has no idea of how the world works. At the very least you do not appear to understand police work or laws in general (which was quite apparent with your fantasies about rape, revolution and military conquests.)

Of course not, but I am saying that it is easier for crime to be reported when it happens outside of law enforcement than inside law enforcement.

Say what?

Since reporting crime happening outside of the law enforcement is easier to be reported, than it is to report crime and corruption within the law enforcement, it would be harder to crack down on sex trafficking in a legal prostitution industry, than in an illegal industry.

Offline dpareja

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 4362
Re: MORE IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2018, 07:36:51 pm »
What? Legal prostitution wouldn't be part of law enforcement.

And being able to get protective custody without being afraid of your own actions potentially implicating you in a crime would incentivize reporting, not disincentivize it.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.