Author Topic: More proof that Catholicism is true  (Read 722 times)

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Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2018, 09:06:08 am »
The authors of the Gospels wrote about different specific parts of Jesus’s life and different specific information about Jesus’s life. It was a division of tasks.
You have no idea how many years intervened between the authorship of the various books in the NT, do you?

It was within a century

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2018, 09:20:59 am »
The authors of the Gospels wrote about different specific parts of Jesus’s life and different specific information about Jesus’s life. It was a division of tasks.
You have no idea how many years intervened between the authorship of the various books in the NT, do you?

It was within a century
More than enough time in a pre mass communications age for all sorts of crap to be claimed about someone's life that aint necessarily so and Paul wrote. Given that the authors of the gospels were anonymous and that Paul didn't send writings to his Christian communities until the first century, precise dates for the gospels is uncertain at best.

Offline Skybison

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2018, 12:19:42 pm »
The authors of the Gospels wrote about different specific parts of Jesus’s life and different specific information about Jesus’s life. It was a division of tasks.

That has nothing to do with my point.  The gospels still have very different ideas of who Jesus was, growing more divine over time.  Working backwards from that we find that the original Christians believed Jesus was not God.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2018, 06:02:25 pm »
The authors of the Gospels wrote about different specific parts of Jesus’s life and different specific information about Jesus’s life. It was a division of tasks.

That has nothing to do with my point.  The gospels still have very different ideas of who Jesus was, growing more divine over time.  Working backwards from that we find that the original Christians believed Jesus was not God.

They were not different ideas, they were just different pieces of information. Just because the other authors wrote son of God, does not mean that they didn’t believe that he was also God, they just used son of God as a phrase knowing that the readers already knew that Jesus is God.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 06:05:55 pm by Jacob Harrison »

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2018, 07:24:48 pm »
Earlier Gospels, "I'm not God." Later Gospels "I'm totally God guize!" Jacob, "2+2=5."

Always fascinating to watch how fundies deal with cognitive dissonance and logical impossibilities.

Offline Skybison

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2018, 01:11:29 am »
Well to be fair it's not so much that they say he isn't God as they never say he was, but that's an awfully big thing not to mention.  And the idea that they were giving different information is nonsense since Matthew and Luke quote Mark verbatim for much of their content and tell a lot of the same stories, probably but not certainly from a lost earlier source called Q.



Although obviously there are no contemporary accounts of who the historical Jesus was, Historians can say a lot of about who he was and what he believed from reconstructing the original versions of the gospels and Paul letters, accounts of the great diversity in the early Christian movement and non-christian records of cultural context of the time.

Jesus was member of the Fourth philosophy movement, an apocalyptic duelist Jew.  Traditional Judaism is strictly monotheistic, but influence from Zoroastrianism gave rise to the duelist movement that saw the universe as a battle between a good god (yahweh) and an evil god (various minor figures from Jewish folklore were inflated to this role eventually settling on a bit player in the book of Job).  From that came apocalyptists who believed that a final showdown between God and Satan was imminent.  This final battle would be lead by a special messiah, an ordinary Human that God would choose ala Moses or David.  Jesus was one of the various cult leaders of the time who claimed this title, and worked as a travelling faith healer and magician who preached a message of resistance to Roman rule and the cuckservative Jewish religious leaders, a proto-marxist working class revolution that saw poor Jews as the ones who truely followed God and that people should abandon all material pursuits and even their families if need be to focus on spiritual purity and the coming end of history.

Everything else about Christianity: That Jesus was God, that his followers don't need to follow kosher dietary laws or get circumcised, that his moral message is meant for anyone but Jews or that the world isn't going to end in the first century CE, is a blasphemy later added onto his message.

Online niam2023

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2018, 06:20:16 am »
There's also the fact Satan and Lucifer were never the same entity.

Benefits of playing SMT - you learn this.

Satan was basically God's prosecuting attorney - God presented the arguments that the individual was good, Satan presented the argument the individual was bad, and did stuff like the Book of Job and other such things to test Man's piety; if they failed, Satan used that against them in court so to speak (this is as abjectly unfair as it sounds). Satan was the "Prince of Darkness" in a different way than how Lucifer is often presented. Basically from all the early sources he was the dirty jobs guy on top of the other stuff. This comes into play in SMT in that Satan NEVER outright presents himself AS Satan. He's always subdivided up, hidden, or out of plain sight.

There's also the...odd...Angel Samael. No two accounts on this serpentine customer can agree if he's Fallen or in YHVH's good graces. He shows up in a vision of Heaven Moses has...and causes the poor guy to flip out. His Angel guide then says basically "don't you worry - you won't EVER have to deal with this fucker." (Going by the art I do not blame Moses for his reaction https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/megamitensei/images/5/59/Samael.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110611102937). Reason I bring him up is because he's often conflated with the snake of Eden, associated with Satan...and occasionally Lucifer, fueling the "whose side is this guy on anyways?" theological fun.

Lucifer is more like a celestial gadfly. He's always up to no good - with his more prominent position largely springing from the book "Paradise Lost" by one John Milton and then exploding from there.  Even prior, Early Church leaders knew they needed to make evil diabolical but also seductive to try and prop up their side as more righteous - so Lucifer became a cunning, plotting figure. His characterization as a sort of "Demon Lord" also likely springs from Milton, where he commands the likes of Beelzebub, Belial, Lucifuge, and other assorted figures. (note from this that could be somewhat amusing; Hell has apparently had multiple "Presidents". From all I gathered, it seems they have a split executive branch where Lucifer is a Prime Minister / President for Life, with various Presidents such as Ose, Lucifuge, and others. Y'know, kind of like Russia, where Putin seems to be in charge forever and rotating other people around as one position or the other.)

As for why I bring this up, well, I figured this was as good a thread as any for a bit of a myth history lesson, and I do adore mythology. And I figured this all might just melt Jacob's brain down. Let's see him try to turn the Satan =/= Lucifer into a whole massive argument...
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 06:44:58 am by niam2023 »
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2018, 07:28:52 am »
I love how it's basically polytheism, all these different gods running around making trouble. Just like the Celts, Romans and Norse.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2018, 07:35:04 am »
Well to be fair it's not so much that they say he isn't God as they never say he was, but that's an awfully big thing not to mention.  And the idea that they were giving different information is nonsense since Matthew and Luke quote Mark verbatim for much of their content and tell a lot of the same stories, probably but not certainly from a lost earlier source called Q.



Although obviously there are no contemporary accounts of who the historical Jesus was, Historians can say a lot of about who he was and what he believed from reconstructing the original versions of the gospels and Paul letters, accounts of the great diversity in the early Christian movement and non-christian records of cultural context of the time.

Jesus was member of the Fourth philosophy movement, an apocalyptic duelist Jew.  Traditional Judaism is strictly monotheistic, but influence from Zoroastrianism gave rise to the duelist movement that saw the universe as a battle between a good god (yahweh) and an evil god (various minor figures from Jewish folklore were inflated to this role eventually settling on a bit player in the book of Job).  From that came apocalyptists who believed that a final showdown between God and Satan was imminent.  This final battle would be lead by a special messiah, an ordinary Human that God would choose ala Moses or David.  Jesus was one of the various cult leaders of the time who claimed this title, and worked as a travelling faith healer and magician who preached a message of resistance to Roman rule and the cuckservative Jewish religious leaders, a proto-marxist working class revolution that saw poor Jews as the ones who truely followed God and that people should abandon all material pursuits and even their families if need be to focus on spiritual purity and the coming end of history.

Everything else about Christianity: That Jesus was God, that his followers don't need to follow kosher dietary laws or get circumcised, that his moral message is meant for anyone but Jews or that the world isn't going to end in the first century CE, is a blasphemy later added onto his message.

It was not mentioned because the readers already knew that he is God

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2018, 07:42:54 am »
There's also the fact Satan and Lucifer were never the same entity.

Benefits of playing SMT - you learn this.

Satan was basically God's prosecuting attorney - God presented the arguments that the individual was good, Satan presented the argument the individual was bad, and did stuff like the Book of Job and other such things to test Man's piety; if they failed, Satan used that against them in court so to speak (this is as abjectly unfair as it sounds). Satan was the "Prince of Darkness" in a different way than how Lucifer is often presented. Basically from all the early sources he was the dirty jobs guy on top of the other stuff. This comes into play in SMT in that Satan NEVER outright presents himself AS Satan. He's always subdivided up, hidden, or out of plain sight.

There's also the...odd...Angel Samael. No two accounts on this serpentine customer can agree if he's Fallen or in YHVH's good graces. He shows up in a vision of Heaven Moses has...and causes the poor guy to flip out. His Angel guide then says basically "don't you worry - you won't EVER have to deal with this fucker." (Going by the art I do not blame Moses for his reaction https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/megamitensei/images/5/59/Samael.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110611102937). Reason I bring him up is because he's often conflated with the snake of Eden, associated with Satan...and occasionally Lucifer, fueling the "whose side is this guy on anyways?" theological fun.

Lucifer is more like a celestial gadfly. He's always up to no good - with his more prominent position largely springing from the book "Paradise Lost" by one John Milton and then exploding from there.  Even prior, Early Church leaders knew they needed to make evil diabolical but also seductive to try and prop up their side as more righteous - so Lucifer became a cunning, plotting figure. His characterization as a sort of "Demon Lord" also likely springs from Milton, where he commands the likes of Beelzebub, Belial, Lucifuge, and other assorted figures. (note from this that could be somewhat amusing; Hell has apparently had multiple "Presidents". From all I gathered, it seems they have a split executive branch where Lucifer is a Prime Minister / President for Life, with various Presidents such as Ose, Lucifuge, and others. Y'know, kind of like Russia, where Putin seems to be in charge forever and rotating other people around as one position or the other.)

As for why I bring this up, well, I figured this was as good a thread as any for a bit of a myth history lesson, and I do adore mythology. And I figured this all might just melt Jacob's brain down. Let's see him try to turn the Satan =/= Lucifer into a whole massive argument...

Satan was shown to be rebellious against God from the beginning since he tempted Eve to sin. And where did you get that Lucifer is not Satan. The Bible makes it clear that they are the same.

Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2018, 08:46:13 am »
Satan was shown to be rebellious against God from the beginning since he tempted Eve to sin. And where did you get that Lucifer is not Satan. The Bible makes it clear that they are the same.
Nope. Read Genesis. It's just "the serpent". Who was punished by being forced to slither around on his belly for the rest of his and his offspring's existence. In other words, just a regular old snake, albeit the first of his kind. Satan is a completely different character.

Offline Askold

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2018, 12:13:56 pm »
Satan was shown to be rebellious against God from the beginning since he tempted Eve to sin. And where did you get that Lucifer is not Satan. The Bible makes it clear that they are the same.
Nope. Read Genesis. It's just "the serpent". Who was punished by being forced to slither around on his belly for the rest of his and his offspring's existence. In other words, just a regular old snake, albeit the first of his kind. Satan is a completely different character.

That reminds me: How did the serpent originally move? This question is the source of much heated religious debate and at least one overturned table and a shout of "THE DEVIL WAS NOT A GODDAMN POGO-STICK!"

https://answersingenesis.org/genesis/garden-of-eden/did-the-serpent-originally-have-legs/ (Regardless of how you feel about the source they do list a lot of notable people and their opinions on this.)
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Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2018, 12:36:06 pm »
Satan was shown to be rebellious against God from the beginning since he tempted Eve to sin. And where did you get that Lucifer is not Satan. The Bible makes it clear that they are the same.
Nope. Read Genesis. It's just "the serpent". Who was punished by being forced to slither around on his belly for the rest of his and his offspring's existence. In other words, just a regular old snake, albeit the first of his kind. Satan is a completely different character.


The New Testament refers to the serpent as Satan or the Prince of Darkness.

Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2018, 12:42:19 pm »
Satan was shown to be rebellious against God from the beginning since he tempted Eve to sin. And where did you get that Lucifer is not Satan. The Bible makes it clear that they are the same.
Nope. Read Genesis. It's just "the serpent". Who was punished by being forced to slither around on his belly for the rest of his and his offspring's existence. In other words, just a regular old snake, albeit the first of his kind. Satan is a completely different character.

The New Testament refers to the serpent as Satan or the Prince of Darkness.

No, it refers to Satan as Satan. I.e. the angel (read: Not a snake) who rebelled against God's rule and was banished from heaven as a result (this happened after the events of Genesis, by the by). Again, two completely different and unrelated characters.

Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: More proof that Catholicism is true
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2018, 12:45:43 pm »
Satan was shown to be rebellious against God from the beginning since he tempted Eve to sin. And where did you get that Lucifer is not Satan. The Bible makes it clear that they are the same.
Nope. Read Genesis. It's just "the serpent". Who was punished by being forced to slither around on his belly for the rest of his and his offspring's existence. In other words, just a regular old snake, albeit the first of his kind. Satan is a completely different character.

That reminds me: How did the serpent originally move? This question is the source of much heated religious debate and at least one overturned table and a shout of "THE DEVIL WAS NOT A GODDAMN POGO-STICK!"

https://answersingenesis.org/genesis/garden-of-eden/did-the-serpent-originally-have-legs/ (Regardless of how you feel about the source they do list a lot of notable people and their opinions on this.)
Heh. It's like watching Trekkies argue over whether or not the transporter actually teleports a person from A to B, or straight up kills them and simultaneously generates a perfect copy at the other end.