Author Topic: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought  (Read 1356 times)

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Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #120 on: August 21, 2018, 11:14:51 pm »
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/pope-francis-failed-letter-abuse/

What has Bergoglio actually done? Just about fuck all.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #121 on: August 23, 2018, 07:08:34 pm »
RCC Victim blaming and shaming turned up to 11.

Quote
...a newly minted Mexican Cardinal has suggested that victims who accuse priests should be “ashamed” because they too have skeletons in their own closets.

Can we just shut the doors on this whole perverse, medieval fuck up called the Roman Catholic Church, sell its assets give the proceeds to their victims and the rest to secular charities now please?

At the very least could these apologists for rape, pederasty and torture shut the holy fuck up about "sexual immorality" forever?


Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #122 on: August 23, 2018, 07:27:06 pm »
RCC Victim blaming and shaming turned up to 11.

Quote
...a newly minted Mexican Cardinal has suggested that victims who accuse priests should be “ashamed” because they too have skeletons in their own closets.

Can we just shut the doors on this whole perverse, medieval fuck up called the Roman Catholic Church, sell its assets give the proceeds to their victims and the rest to secular charities now please?

At the very least could these apologists for rape, pederasty and torture shut the holy fuck up about "sexual immorality" forever?

Or we can have righteous clergy infiltrate the Church, become Pope, get rid of Vatican 2, and finally crack down on the pedophile priests, those who cover for them, and those who make comments like the Mexican Cardinal. He was made a Cardinal by the liberal Pope Francis.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #123 on: August 23, 2018, 09:02:21 pm »
Calling Sigma to this thread to explain how Bergoglio is every bit as ultraconservative as other Popes.

And Vatican II ain't the problem.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #124 on: August 23, 2018, 11:08:59 pm »
RCC Victim blaming and shaming turned up to 11.

Quote
...a newly minted Mexican Cardinal has suggested that victims who accuse priests should be “ashamed” because they too have skeletons in their own closets.

Can we just shut the doors on this whole perverse, medieval fuck up called the Roman Catholic Church, sell its assets give the proceeds to their victims and the rest to secular charities now please?

At the very least could these apologists for rape, pederasty and torture shut the holy fuck up about "sexual immorality" forever?

Or we can have righteous clergy infiltrate the Church, become Pope, get rid of Vatican 2, and finally crack down on the pedophile priests, those who cover for them, and those who make comments like the Mexican Cardinal. He was made a Cardinal by the liberal Pope Francis.
I'll just leave this here.

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Former trainee priest, lawyer and author Kieran Tapsell said Pope Francis can change church culture with the stroke of a pen.

“He can change the culture of the church with the stroke of a pen by changing canon law but he won’t,” said lawyer and former trainee priest Kieran Tapsell, whose submission to the royal commission on canon law was reflected in a series of recommendations for Australian bishops to raise with the Vatican.

 “The church secrecy laws protect the perpetrators and increase the amount of child sexual abuse and yet when two United Nations committees in 2014 recommended the Pope change canon law to protect children, he rejected them,” Mr Tapsell said.

“How can he get rid of a culture of secrecy when canon law requires secrecy? Until he changes canon law, everything he says is hypocrisy. There’s nothing wrong with the words in his letter. I like what he says, but it’s still more hand-wringing.”

Now, how likely is it that an ultraconservative pontiff, more traditional than say Francis, would change the canon laws that allow priests to hide their misdeeds under the seal of the confessional Jacob?

Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #125 on: August 23, 2018, 11:41:06 pm »
The Royal Commission made 21 recommendations regarding the Catholic Church, including nine changes to canon law.

https://www.theherald.com.au/story/5123881/final-report-of-child-sex-abuse-commission-calls-for-national-strategy/

https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/religious-institutions

Note that Book 2--the largest of the three files--is exclusively about the Catholic Church. The recommendations are found in Book 1.

Recommendations in short form:

(click to show/hide)
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #126 on: August 24, 2018, 03:13:21 am »
Oh, and here's a take on those recommendations from a Catholic who's been incensed about the abuse scandal since Boston (and also lived through it himself since he's in Minneapolis-St. Paul):

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16.6: The bishop of each Catholic Church diocese in Australia should ensure that parish priests are not the employers of principals and teachers in Catholic schools.

Wise. Kinda fits in with my father's argument here that bishops (and clergy in general) need to divest their responsibility for everything possible other than "preaching the Gospel"

(I'm jealous; Crisis published Dad's piece but rejected mine, because mine named names and they weren't quite up for that.)

Somebody outside day-to-day operations should have authority to enforce doctrinal issues in a school, but that person need not be a cleric and, even if a cleric, that cleric need not be the employer.

LIKELIHOOD OF HAPPENING: fair.

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16.7: The Australian Catholic Bishops Conference should conduct a national review of the governance and management structures of dioceses and parishes, including in relation to issues of transparency, accountability, consultation and the participation of lay men and women. This review should draw from the approaches to governance of Catholic health, community services and education agencies.

A reasonable but essentially toothless recommendation, because, between Cardinal Pell and Bishop Wilson, the Australian Catholic Bishops Conference seems to have demonstrated its own depraved indifference to the plight of victims.

LIKELIHOOD OF HAPPENING: high, but the odds are even higher the results make a lot of noise and severely inconvenience thousands of innocent priests and laypeople without actually doing anything to prevent abuse

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16.8: In the interests of child safety and improved institutional responses to child sexual abuse, the Australian Catholic Bishops Conference should request the Holy See to:
a. publish criteria for the selection of bishops, including relating to the promotion of child safety

Not really sure what this means, tbh.

Quote
b. establish a transparent process for appointing bishops which includes the direct participation of lay people.

Well now they're stealing right out from my unpublished article.

St. Ambrose of Milan was elected bishop the way most bishops were elected at the time: the people acclaimed him, the priests of Milan agreed and elected him, the local bishops approved and consecrated him, and the Pope approved and confirmed him. (Ambrose was not even baptized at the time; he was a catechumen.)

Election by acclamation is probably impractical in the current Church, because the structure of the Church is so radically different than it was in the patristic era. (This is, in itself, arguably a problem.)

But the idea that the Pope unilaterally appoints bishops, only taking advice from others, would have surprised any Catholic before about the 17th Century. And that all those advisers would be clergy? All of whose advice is secret? This would surely stun the Church Fathers. Heck, the Eastern Particular Churches, not to mention the Eastern Orthodox Churches, give us major side-eye about this even today.

Decentralization of episcopal ordinations seems essential.

LIKELIHOOD: This is in the mainstream conversation to an extent that was unimaginable even a few weeks ago. But it's still at the far edge of the Catholic Overton window, and the only person who can do a thing about it is Pope Francis -- who has somehow done an even worse job so far on the abuse scandal than Pope St. John Paul II? This may need to wait for another Pope, one who is unusually capable of looking beyond the past century or two for lessons on Church governance.

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16.9: The Australian Catholic Bishops Conference should request the Holy See to amend the 1983 Code of Canon Law to create a new canon or series of canons specifically relating to child sexual abuse, as follows:

a. All delicts relating to child sexual abuse should be articulated as canonical crimes against the child, not as moral failings or as breaches of the ‘special obligation’ of clerics and religious to observe celibacy.

I take this to be Australia calling for a revision of Canon 1395, Section 2, essentially moving from Title V (Delicts Against Special Obligations) into Title VI (Delicts Against Human Life). I don't see what practical difference this would make, but perhaps the symbolism alone would be useful in teaching bishops to enforce the law, especially[/u] in these cases. But these are the same bishops who flout essentially any provision of canon law, from liturgical abuse on down, that they don't find suitable.

(Also, if I were Pope, I'd eliminate Title VI altogether, so Canon 1395 would have to move into its own special title. Canon 1397 seems redundant, and Canon 1398 is both actively unhelpful and has already been -- wisely -- gutted by Pope Francis through other channels. Bit I digress.)

LIKELIHOOD: Since the bishops are strongly inclined to engage in CYA by implementing as many symbolic measures as possible, I rate the possibility of this one happening as high, but it'll take years to decades to get Rome to act.

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b. All delicts relating to child sexual abuse should apply to any person holding a ‘dignity, office or responsibility in the Church’ regardless of whether they are ordained or not ordained.

This seems like a good call! I was genuinely surprised to realize this wasn't the case -- I've read the delict before, but it never clicked -- and I'll bet you there are not a few people in the Vatican who would be equally surprised (see my complaint above about bishops flouting the law).

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c. In relation to the acquisition, possession, or distribution of pornographic images, the delict (currently contained in Article 6 §2 1° of the revised 2010 norms attached to the motu proprio Sacramentorum sanctitatis tutela) should be amended to refer to minors under the age of 18, not minors under the age of 14.

I had to poke around a bit on this to see what other "coverage" the code has for these crimes (SST's main purpose isn't to declare crimes but to reserve judgment of them to the Holy Office / CDF, which proved effective under Benedict but seemingly less so under Francis).

Anyway, yes, I think this is a wise amendment.

LIKELIHOOD: modest. On its face, it's an easy, cost-free, CYA amendment to canon law. But, in truth, it would push a lot of cases to Rome, cases that dioceses seem to very strongly prefer to handle locally, involving police only if necessary. On the other hand, it would only push cases to Rome if bishops showed any interest in following the law, so...

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16.10: The Australian Catholic Bishops Conference should request the Holy See to amend canon law so that the pontifical secret does not apply to any aspect of allegations or canonical disciplinary processes relating to child sexual abuse.

Nobody seems to disagree with this except for the bishops it would make accountable.

LIKELIHOOD OF HAPPENING: slim to none

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16.11: The Australian Catholic Bishops Conference should request the Holy See to amend canon law to ensure that the ‘pastoral approach’ is not an essential precondition to the commencement of canonical action relating to child sexual abuse.

Yes. True of other delicts as well. I mean, I always thought it obvious that, by the nature of the crime, you cannot "restore justice" after sex abuse with "fraternal correction"... but the bishops have amply demonstrated that it is not at all obvious to them.

So, sure, call this out for them.

LIKELIHOOD: some idiot's going to say that you can't reform this because of Matt 18:15, and that's an incredibly tendentious reading, but as anyone who's tried to push legislation through a multi-layered committee knows, all it takes is one idiot to make it impossible to pass.

Oh, the canon Australia is referring to is -- I'm pretty sure -- Canon 1341.

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16.12: The Australian Catholic Bishops Conference should request the Holy See to amend canon law to remove the time limit (prescription) for commencement of canonical actions relating to child sexual abuse. This amendment should apply retrospectively.

Wise. I understand why we have statutes of limitations on crimes -- same reason any polity has statutes of limitations, really -- but the past decade has shown that the good the limitations do is outweighed by the huge evil of bishops trying to run out the statute of limitations for their priests. Time to go.

LIKELIHOOD: meh.

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16.13: The Australian Catholic Bishops Conference should request the Holy See to amend the ‘imputability’ test in canon law so that a diagnosis of paedophilia is not relevant to the prosecution of or penalty for a canonical offence relating to child sexual abuse.

First time I have reservations. Canon 1321 basically says, "You can only be held responsible for crimes you committed while of sound mind." Every just code of laws has this. In America, it's the insanity defense. I don't think you can strip that out and still have a just law.

What you need, in order to prevent the abuse of the Church's insanity defense ("I'm a diagnosed pedophile, so my criminal pedophilia isn't my responsibility!") is good judges who are working from good standards who can apply those standards consistently and correctly to cases. Those standards come from the journals of canon law and precedent. Maybe you could legislate them here, but, like I said, I have reservations.

I am not a canon lawyer, so maybe this would be fine, but my sense is no. I get what Australia's trying to do here, though, and it's a good move.

LIKELIHOOD: pretty low, if my concerns are right.

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16.14: The Australian Catholic Bishops Conference should request the Holy See to amend canon law to give effect to Recommendations 16.55 and 16.56.

Guess we'll get there when we get there.

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16.15: The Australian Catholic Bishops Conference and Catholic Religious Australia, in consultation with the Holy See, should consider establishing an Australian tribunal for trying canonical disciplinary cases against clergy, whose decisions could be appealed to the Apostolic Signatura in the usual way.

Sucks that they even need authorization from the Holy See for this, but sure, good plan.

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16.16: The Australian Catholic Bishops Conference should request the Holy See to introduce measures to ensure that Vatican Congregations and canonical appeal courts always publish decisions in disciplinary matters relating to child sexual abuse, and provide written reasons for their decisions. Publication should occur in a timely manner. In some cases it may be appropriate to suppress information that might lead to the identification of a victim.

Excellent.

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16.17: The Australian Catholic Bishops Conference should request the Holy See to amend canon law to remove the requirement to destroy documents relating to canonical criminal cases in matters of morals, where the accused cleric has died or ten years have elapsed from the condemnatory sentence. In order to allow for delayed disclosure of abuse by victims and to take account of the limitation periods for civil actions for child sexual abuse, the minimum requirement for retention of records in the secret archives should be at least 45 years.

Capital idea.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #127 on: August 24, 2018, 03:13:31 am »
And Part 2:

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16.18: The Australian Catholic Bishops Conference should request the Holy See to consider introducing voluntary celibacy for diocesan clergy.

I'm open to this, for the first time in my life. There would be a lot of logistical and pastoral problems from removing the requirement of clerical celibacy. At the same time, A.W. Richard Sipe, who has (literally within days of his death) been suddenly recognized as a prophet, writes about how the vow of celibacy -- particularly the way it is rarely actually followed -- contributes to the culture of secrecy that allows abuse to happen:

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I. Catholic clergy submit to the rule of celibacy that is required for ordination to the priesthood. Most—from my experience I repeat most—Roman Catholic clergy do not want to be celibate (sexually abstinent). They wish to be priests; many genuinely wish to serve others; but many are bound by the status, advantages, and security that ministry provides.

II. Celibacy (sexual abstinence) is not a common or persistent practice among Roman Catholic clergy. Many bishops and priests have had or are having some kind of sexual contact, experience, or relationship, at least from time to time.

III. Sexually active clergy, and those with a sexual history, run the risk of exposing their own activity if they bring a fellow cleric?s activity to public attention. A great deal of information about priests? sexual lives, however, is circulated within clerical circles and some can be found in church records. Sacramental confession is a reservoir of sexual knowledge.

IV. In addition, sexual experiences with fellow seminarians or priest faculty are common in houses of training. [Estimates of twenty (20) percent sexual contact during formation are frequent among informed conservative sources.] Church authorities are aware of the situation. (Cf. the recent Vatican evaluation of U.S. Catholic seminaries, 2006 and the Vatican guidelines for the psychological screening of priesthood candidates, October 30, 2008).

V. Homosexual contact and slips are so common among the RC clergy that the Vatican has invented a new pseudo-scientific category of behavior—transitional homosexuality—especially designed to cover activity in seminaries and religious orders. This rationalization allows authorities to permit candidates who have been sexually active, even with minors, to admit them to ordination if they have been abstinent for three years.

VI. Even temporary involvement of a priest in a sexual relationship or experimentation with another priest puts him in a fearful state and a bind of "systemic blackmail." He cannot expose the other priest without exposing himself and endangering not only his reputation, but also even his career.

VII. At times priests or seminary faculty are involved in sex-play or relationships with seminarians or young priests. Later the faculty member is promoted to the office of major superior or bishop. Even the good numbers of clergy who have been sexually involved and subsequently strive to establish celibate practice are caught in the circle of secrecy that covers even sexual abuse of minors. [There is no effective viable recourses to report misbehavior of a bishop.]

VIII. There is a scarlet bond of secrecy that is inculcated within the clerical system (reinforced via Confession), supported from the top down (Vatican), and preserved by bishops and superiors for fear of systemic or personal exposure. Candidates are taught this dynamic of secrecy about sexual activity and abuse from their first days in training.

IX. Wherever one finds a coterie of sexual abusing clergy one can locate a sexually active superior or one who tolerates sexual activity and abuse. The superior?s sexual activity most likely is not minor abuse; activity with consenting adult females or males suffices to seal the bond. All RC clergy are caught in this system that demands cover up at any cost to save themselves (the Church) from scandal.

X. Truth, honesty, transparency, accountability, and lay people find no place within the Scarlet Bond. Denial is the most commonly psychic defense used to seal the bond from within. Rationalization and Mental Reservation are employed freely and frequently even under civil oath not to lie.

Jesus praises celibacy so highly, and support for celibacy is so deeply ingrained in the pious (which is understandable), and its loss would be so regrettable, that I would want to exhaust most other remedies before resorting to this, and I'm sure many people are even more reluctant than I am. But Pope Adrian II brought his wife and daughter to the Lateran Palace upon his election, and there really don't seem to be enough genuinely celibate people out there to run the Church, so... I don't know if preserving it is realistic.

LIKELIHOOD: Increasingly, it feels inevitable to me that the requirement of celibacy will end in the Latin Church. But I don't expect to see it in my lifetime.

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16.19: All Catholic religious institutes in Australia, in consultation with their international leadership and the Holy See as required, should implement measures to address the risks of harm to children and the potential psychological and sexual dysfunction associated with a celibate rule of religious life. This should include consideration of whether and how existing models of religious life could be modified to facilitate alternative forms of association, shorter terms of celibate commitment, and/or voluntary celibacy (where that is consistent with the form of association that has been chosen).

"Alternative forms of association" is an important, important reform that gets buried in all the other words here. We've got all these priests living alone, or with one other man, in parish rectories. It's isolating. Isolation and loneliness are dangerous, as our gay Catholic friends keep reminding us. Heck, we've got the MSM talking about the "loneliness epidemic" that's killing middle-aged American men these days. We've got to take a hard look at this.

LIKELIHOOD: They'll implement some dang "program" that's underfunded and underutilized instead of taking a fundamental critical look at the way priestly isolation has developed since (/because of) Trent.

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16.20: In order to promote healthy lives for those who choose to be celibate, the Australian Catholic Bishops Conference and all Catholic religious institutes in Australia should further develop, regularly evaluate and continually improve, their processes for selecting, screening and training of candidates for the clergy and religious life, and their processes of ongoing formation, support and supervision of clergy and religious.

Kind of a "duh" recommendation, vague to the point of meaninglessness, but sure.

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16.21: The Australian Catholic Bishops Conference and Catholic Religious Australia should establish a national protocol for screening candidates before and during seminary or religious formation, as well as before ordination or the profession of religious vows.

I don't think a protocol is likely to help here. This is one of those paper-pusher recommendations that thinks you can solve a cascading series of horrifying misjudgments and outright crimes by adding an extra form to fill out in the middle. It wouldn't be a horrible move, but I think it'd do more harm than good, and very little of either.

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16.22: The Australian Catholic Bishops Conference and Catholic Religious Australia should establish a mechanism to ensure that diocesan bishops and religious superiors draw upon broad-ranging professional advice in their decision-making, including from staff from seminaries or houses of formation, psychologists, senior clergy and religious, and lay people, in relation to the admission of individuals to:

a. seminaries and houses of religious formation
b. ordination and/or profession of vows.

Nah, they should close the seminaries. I think they're broken beyond repair. Good things do happen in seminaries, but it is despite the seminary structure, not because of it (and thanks to the truly titanic efforts of a few very good men).

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16.23: In relation to guideline documents for the formation of priests and religious:

a. The Australian Catholic Bishops Conference should review and revise the Ratio nationalis institutionis sacerdotalis: Programme for priestly formation (current version December 2015), and all other guideline documents relating to the formation of priests, permanent deacons, and those in pastoral ministry, to explicitly address the issue of child sexual abuse by clergy and best practice in relation to its prevention.

b. All Catholic religious institutes in Australia should review and revise their particular norms and guideline documents relating to the formation of priests, religious brothers, and religious sisters, to explicitly address the issue of child sexual abuse and best practice in relation to its prevention.

16.24: The Australian Catholic Bishops Conference and Catholic Religious Australia should conduct a national review of current models of initial formation to ensure that they promote pastoral effectiveness, (including in relation to child safety and pastoral responses to victims and survivors) and protect against the development of clericalist attitudes.

16.25: The Australian Catholic Bishops Conference and Catholic Religious Australia should develop and each diocese and religious institute should implement mandatory national standards to ensure that all people in religious or pastoral ministry (bishops, provincials, clergy, religious, and lay personnel):

a. undertake mandatory, regular professional development, compulsory components being professional responsibility and boundaries, ethics in ministry, and child safety
b. undertake mandatory professional/pastoral supervision
c. undergo regular performance appraisals.

Easily done, easily faked. You know how many policies my diocese implemented in the '90s and '00s? They were fine policies. They should never have been necessary in the first place. And nobody followed them, so moot point. The bishops are gonna do what they're gonna do. That's why you have to reform the bishops -- remove a TON of them and, yes, change how they are appointed.

LIKELIHOOD: Oh, they'll have the review.

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16.26: The Australian Catholic Bishops Conference should consult with the Holy See, and make public any advice received, in order to clarify whether:

a. information received from a child during the sacrament of reconciliation that they have been sexually abused is covered by the seal of confession
b. if a person confesses during the sacrament of reconciliation to perpetrating child sexual abuse, absolution can and should be withheld until they report themselves to civil authorities.

Ah, here's the bombshell!

I can clarify (a) for them: yes, all information divulged in the confessional is protect by the seal. A good priest would sooner die than breach it.

Now, (b) seems highly controversial. As I've noted before, I thought this was already the law, I think it's at least implicit in Canon 987, and I want it made explicit. However, I got into a nasty and extended Twitter argument about it the other day, and I'm not seeing anybody else take up the call. I have yet to read any actual canonists or half-decent theologians on the subject, so I could be wrong. But I really don't want to be: withholding absolution until the crime is confessed to secular authority is a powerful and important way to ensure actual repentence.

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16.55: Any person in religious ministry who is the subject of a complaint of child sexual abuse which is substantiated on the balance of probabilities, having regard to the principles in Briginshaw v Briginshaw, or who is convicted of an offence relating to child sexual abuse, should be permanently removed from ministry. Religious institutions should also take all necessary steps to effectively prohibit the person from in any way holding himself or herself out as being a person with religious authority.

This is already Church policy in the U.S. Don't know about Australia. And, frankly, it's followed. Nothing else about the law is, but American bishops post-Boston obey this one point of the Dallas Charter absolutely. They're scared straight.  Which is why so many of their protests lately have been, "Well, despite all the red flags we saw and covered up, the INSTANT we had a credible accusation from a child, we pulled him from ministry." Of course, they don't actually say the first part.

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16.56: Any person in religious ministry who is convicted of an offence relating to child sexual abuse should:

a. in the case of Catholic priests and religious, be dismissed from the priesthood and/or dispensed from his or her vows as a religious
b. in the case of Anglican clergy, be deposed from holy orders
c. in the case of Uniting Church ministers, have his or her recognition as a minister withdrawn
d. in the case of an ordained person in any other religious denomination that has a concept of ordination, holy orders and/or vows, be dismissed, deposed or otherwise effectively have their religious status removed.

Why dismiss from the priesthood when you can flog him, humiliate him, starve him, and condemn him to a simple life of prayer and penance?

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But that would mean real change, and no Pope will countenance that.

Some would. They tend to end up with the epitaph "The Great."

I predict that, in the long run, despite the attempts of so many contemporaries to enshrine his papacy in history, St. John Paul II will not end up being called "John Paul the Great." That's a this-generation-only thing.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #128 on: August 24, 2018, 08:42:42 am »
RCC Victim blaming and shaming turned up to 11.

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...a newly minted Mexican Cardinal has suggested that victims who accuse priests should be “ashamed” because they too have skeletons in their own closets.

Can we just shut the doors on this whole perverse, medieval fuck up called the Roman Catholic Church, sell its assets give the proceeds to their victims and the rest to secular charities now please?

At the very least could these apologists for rape, pederasty and torture shut the holy fuck up about "sexual immorality" forever?

Or we can have righteous clergy infiltrate the Church, become Pope, get rid of Vatican 2, and finally crack down on the pedophile priests, those who cover for them, and those who make comments like the Mexican Cardinal. He was made a Cardinal by the liberal Pope Francis.
I'll just leave this here.

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Former trainee priest, lawyer and author Kieran Tapsell said Pope Francis can change church culture with the stroke of a pen.

“He can change the culture of the church with the stroke of a pen by changing canon law but he won’t,” said lawyer and former trainee priest Kieran Tapsell, whose submission to the royal commission on canon law was reflected in a series of recommendations for Australian bishops to raise with the Vatican.

 “The church secrecy laws protect the perpetrators and increase the amount of child sexual abuse and yet when two United Nations committees in 2014 recommended the Pope change canon law to protect children, he rejected them,” Mr Tapsell said.

“How can he get rid of a culture of secrecy when canon law requires secrecy? Until he changes canon law, everything he says is hypocrisy. There’s nothing wrong with the words in his letter. I like what he says, but it’s still more hand-wringing.”

Now, how likely is it that an ultraconservative pontiff, more traditional than say Francis, would change the canon laws that allow priests to hide their misdeeds under the seal of the confessional Jacob?

From the Wikipedia article on Pontificial secret.

“Thus the procedures of the Church tribunal were covered by papal secrecy (called at that time secrecy of the Holy Office), but the crime of the priest was not: "These matters are confidential only to the procedures within the Church, but do not preclude in any way for these matters to be brought to civil authorities for proper legal adjudication. The Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People of June, 2002, approved by the Vatican, requires that credible allegations of sexual abuse of children be reported to legal authorities."

So allegations already can be reported to legal authorities without changes in Canon law. All the Church needs to do, is to defrock clergy members involved in the crimes and cover up, and increase the vetting procedures when ordaining clergy.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #129 on: August 24, 2018, 06:16:36 pm »
RCC Victim blaming and shaming turned up to 11.

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...a newly minted Mexican Cardinal has suggested that victims who accuse priests should be “ashamed” because they too have skeletons in their own closets.

Can we just shut the doors on this whole perverse, medieval fuck up called the Roman Catholic Church, sell its assets give the proceeds to their victims and the rest to secular charities now please?

At the very least could these apologists for rape, pederasty and torture shut the holy fuck up about "sexual immorality" forever?

Or we can have righteous clergy infiltrate the Church, become Pope, get rid of Vatican 2, and finally crack down on the pedophile priests, those who cover for them, and those who make comments like the Mexican Cardinal. He was made a Cardinal by the liberal Pope Francis.
I'll just leave this here.

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Former trainee priest, lawyer and author Kieran Tapsell said Pope Francis can change church culture with the stroke of a pen.

“He can change the culture of the church with the stroke of a pen by changing canon law but he won’t,” said lawyer and former trainee priest Kieran Tapsell, whose submission to the royal commission on canon law was reflected in a series of recommendations for Australian bishops to raise with the Vatican.

 “The church secrecy laws protect the perpetrators and increase the amount of child sexual abuse and yet when two United Nations committees in 2014 recommended the Pope change canon law to protect children, he rejected them,” Mr Tapsell said.

“How can he get rid of a culture of secrecy when canon law requires secrecy? Until he changes canon law, everything he says is hypocrisy. There’s nothing wrong with the words in his letter. I like what he says, but it’s still more hand-wringing.”

Now, how likely is it that an ultraconservative pontiff, more traditional than say Francis, would change the canon laws that allow priests to hide their misdeeds under the seal of the confessional Jacob?

From the Wikipedia article on Pontificial secret.

“Thus the procedures of the Church tribunal were covered by papal secrecy (called at that time secrecy of the Holy Office), but the crime of the priest was not: "These matters are confidential only to the procedures within the Church, but do not preclude in any way for these matters to be brought to civil authorities for proper legal adjudication. The Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People of June, 2002, approved by the Vatican, requires that credible allegations of sexual abuse of children be reported to legal authorities."

So allegations already can be reported to legal authorities without changes in Canon law. All the Church needs to do, is to defrock clergy members involved in the crimes and cover up, and increase the vetting procedures when ordaining clergy.
"Not precluding" is woefully insufficient, church doctrine should make it mandatory in all cases and suspected cases, not merely those the church considers "credible."

Fuck it, the matter needs to be taken up by civil authorities everywhere the RCC has infected. If they cover it up, jail the bastards. Jail the bastards who covered for bastards fiddling with kids, jail every bastard who sent a pedo bastard to another parish when they found out what they were doing. If any organisation is found to be covering for child sex abusers it's assets should be turned over to the state and the proceeds given to the victims of crime. No exceptions, no excuses.

Religious organisations and groupings cannot police themselves and must be policed properly, and stringently by governments.

Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #130 on: August 24, 2018, 08:29:14 pm »
Calling Sigma to this thread to explain how Bergoglio is every bit as ultraconservative as other Popes.

And Vatican II ain't the problem.


Eh. I could, but what would be the point? Jacob has never let facts get in the way of anything and is not even an amusing troll for me anymore.
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