Author Topic: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought  (Read 1454 times)

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Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2018, 10:35:54 am »
Ok, while I abhor the Vatican 2 reforms, I guess the reforms itself are not heretical. However heresy and corruption has sprung out of the Church as a result of the reforms
Says you, or an ordained clergyman of higher rank than those accused of said heresy and/or corruption?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 10:40:01 am by Art Vandelay »

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2018, 10:48:15 am »
Ok, while I abhor the Vatican 2 reforms, I guess the reforms itself are not heretical. However heresy and corruption has sprung out of the Church as a result of the reforms
You abhor the church's teachings? That's worse Jacob, before you were merely a heretic. Now you're an apostate!

You're a bad Catholic, Jacob. It'll take more than a couple of Hail Marys and a bit of loose change in the plate, quite irredeemable I'm afraid.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2018, 12:11:30 pm »
Ok, while I abhor the Vatican 2 reforms, I guess the reforms itself are not heretical. However heresy and corruption has sprung out of the Church as a result of the reforms
Says you, or an ordained clergyman of higher rank than those accused of said heresy and/or corruption?

It is not heretical to point out heresy, and corruption committed by those in the Church, many including members of the clergy have done that.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2018, 12:12:31 pm »
Ok, while I abhor the Vatican 2 reforms, I guess the reforms itself are not heretical. However heresy and corruption has sprung out of the Church as a result of the reforms
You abhor the church's teachings? That's worse Jacob, before you were merely a heretic. Now you're an apostate!

You're a bad Catholic, Jacob. It'll take more than a couple of Hail Marys and a bit of loose change in the plate, quite irredeemable I'm afraid.

I do not abhor the Church's teachings, I abhor the changes they made in Vatican 2.

Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2018, 12:25:36 pm »
Ok, while I abhor the Vatican 2 reforms, I guess the reforms itself are not heretical. However heresy and corruption has sprung out of the Church as a result of the reforms
Says you, or an ordained clergyman of higher rank than those accused of said heresy and/or corruption?
It is not heretical to point out heresy, and corruption committed by those in the Church, many including members of the clergy have done that.
Yes it is, actually. As a layperson, it is not your place to question the clergy. Are they not ordained into God's true church? Do they not follow a strict chain of command all the way up to the Pope, who is of course His representative on earth? If they have committed heresy, that is for whoever is directly above them to decide and address. If you disagree with a clergyman who is fully sanctioned by his superior and by extension the Church as a whole, it is you who is committing heresy, not him.

Offline ironbite

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2018, 03:12:17 pm »
God how long until your second cousin castrates you and we won't have to see you on the forums?

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2018, 05:38:56 pm »
Ok, while I abhor the Vatican 2 reforms, I guess the reforms itself are not heretical. However heresy and corruption has sprung out of the Church as a result of the reforms
Says you, or an ordained clergyman of higher rank than those accused of said heresy and/or corruption?
It is not heretical to point out heresy, and corruption committed by those in the Church, many including members of the clergy have done that.
Yes it is, actually. As a layperson, it is not your place to question the clergy. Are they not ordained into God's true church? Do they not follow a strict chain of command all the way up to the Pope, who is of course His representative on earth? If they have committed heresy, that is for whoever is directly above them to decide and address. If you disagree with a clergyman who is fully sanctioned by his superior and by extension the Church as a whole, it is you who is committing heresy, not him.

The Church is only infallible when the Pope defines a Doctrine concerning faith or morals to be upheld by the entire Church.  There is a chain of command, but corruption can and has set foot in the Church all the way up to the Pope himself. Pope Francis not to long ago committed heresy by denying the existence of hell.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2018, 07:09:19 pm »
Ok, while I abhor the Vatican 2 reforms, I guess the reforms itself are not heretical. However heresy and corruption has sprung out of the Church as a result of the reforms
You abhor the church's teachings? That's worse Jacob, before you were merely a heretic. Now you're an apostate!

You're a bad Catholic, Jacob. It'll take more than a couple of Hail Marys and a bit of loose change in the plate, quite irredeemable I'm afraid.

I do not abhor the Church's teachings, I abhor the changes they made in Vatican 2.
And V2 were teachings of the church, apostate!

It's fascinating to watch how a fundies brain builds little protective walls of hot air around absurdities. Folks, I present cognitive dissonance in action!

I also not how dutifully our little fundie has rushed to divert attention away from another disgusting RCC rape scandal. If he winds up looking like a tit defending 2+2=5 in his mind it's defended mother Church by moving the spotlight off forced abortions and covering and enabling the rape of nuns.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 07:13:33 pm by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2018, 07:11:37 pm »
Ok, while I abhor the Vatican 2 reforms, I guess the reforms itself are not heretical. However heresy and corruption has sprung out of the Church as a result of the reforms
You abhor the church's teachings? That's worse Jacob, before you were merely a heretic. Now you're an apostate!

You're a bad Catholic, Jacob. It'll take more than a couple of Hail Marys and a bit of loose change in the plate, quite irredeemable I'm afraid.

I do not abhor the Church's teachings, I abhor the changes they made in Vatican 2.
And V2 were teachings of the church, apostate!

It's fascinating to watch how a fundies brain builds little protective walls of hot air around absurdities. Folks, I present cognitive dissonance in action!

Vatican 2 was reforms of the Church’s practices, not teachings.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2018, 07:19:00 pm »
Reforms in practices about what and how they teach at the pulpit heretic.

And your suicide defence of a blatant contradiction is noted. Of course it makes Jacob Harrison look like more of a twat but it shifts attention away from rape and forced abortions in the RCC.

Trying to atone for your heresy and apostasy eh Jacob? Or do you merely conclude that any sin is forgivable so long as it defends Mother Church?

Now, that is VERY Catholic!

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2018, 07:49:12 pm »
Reforms in practices about what and how they teach at the pulpit heretic.

And your suicide defence of a blatant contradiction is noted. Of course it makes Jacob Harrison look like more of a twat but it shifts attention away from rape and forced abortions in the RCC.

Trying to atone for your heresy and apostasy eh Jacob? Or do you merely conclude that any sin is forgivable so long as it defends Mother Church?

Now, that is VERY Catholic!

Reforms in how they teach, not what they teach. And I am saying that these rapes and forced abortions are happening after Vatican 2. The Church has fallen astray when it started making liberal modernizing reforms. I pray that a future Pope repeals Vatican 2, and defrocks the pedophiles and rapists in the clergy.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2018, 08:15:16 pm »
Your petty, pointless hairsplitting not withstanding, you really are doing this to derail the discussion away from Priests buying abortions for Nuns they raped.

Dunno why, seeing as you're not actually Catholic. Just a weird, archaic cosplay version of such.

Maybe you're Catholic in an alternate universe?

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2018, 08:20:18 pm »
Your petty, pointless hairsplitting not withstanding, you really are doing this to derail the discussion away from Priests buying abortions for Nuns they raped.

Dunno why, seeing as you're not actually Catholic. Just a weird, archaic cosplay version of such.

Maybe you're Catholic in an alternate universe?

The sexual abuse of nuns is a result of the Church becoming corrupt after Vatican 2.

Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2018, 03:15:07 am »
Ok, while I abhor the Vatican 2 reforms, I guess the reforms itself are not heretical. However heresy and corruption has sprung out of the Church as a result of the reforms
Says you, or an ordained clergyman of higher rank than those accused of said heresy and/or corruption?
It is not heretical to point out heresy, and corruption committed by those in the Church, many including members of the clergy have done that.
Yes it is, actually. As a layperson, it is not your place to question the clergy. Are they not ordained into God's true church? Do they not follow a strict chain of command all the way up to the Pope, who is of course His representative on earth? If they have committed heresy, that is for whoever is directly above them to decide and address. If you disagree with a clergyman who is fully sanctioned by his superior and by extension the Church as a whole, it is you who is committing heresy, not him.

The Church is only infallible when the Pope defines a Doctrine concerning faith or morals to be upheld by the entire Church.  There is a chain of command, but corruption can and has set foot in the Church all the way up to the Pope himself. Pope Francis not to long ago committed heresy by denying the existence of hell.

If that's the case, then it's still not your place to say. Only a future Pope can decide whether or not his predecessor is wrong. As a laymember of the church, yours is only to listen and accept and never ever question the word of the clergy. If they are ever wrong, then those above them will correct their mistake, not you. If you think you know better than even the lowest ranking ordained clergy, much less the Pope himself, then it is you who is a heretic, not them.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2018, 03:17:40 am »
The whole "Vatican 2 caused all the pervy priests" is a popular dodge amongst traditionalist Catholics wanting to lampshade the whole affair, but it's bullshit.

Quote

As I noted earlier in this essay, some have attempted to lay the blame for the problem
of abuse on shifting attitudes to sexual morality that arose post—Vatican II. Moral
relativism is viewed as a significant contributor to the problem, if not its major cause.
It is important to review the evidence for such a claim as it has consequences for the
ongoing formation of priests and religious. The proposal is suggesting that the older,
more strict forms of formation, where morality was more black and white, together
with the reintroduction of older forms of piety, would help alleviate the problem of
sexual abuse in the church.

It is not difficult to find evidence which would call this proposal into question. In
fact the most notorious cases of sexual abuse in the Australian church occurred in
institutional settings in the 1940s-60s by men (and sometimes women) who were
thoroughly trained in the strict morality and rigorous piety of the' pre—Vatican II
church. There are two such cases that come to mind. The first was the abuse of young
boys at Bindoon, Castledare, Clontarf and Tardun in Western Australia by Christian
Brothers running those institutions. As a Senate report into the abuse there noted:
4.2 The accounts of sexual abuse and assault at these four institutions are horrendous,
supporting and amplifying the UK Committee's description of 'quite exceptional
depravity'. The stories from the ex-residents of Bindoon, Castledare, Clontarf, and
Tardun provide all account of systemic criminal sexual assault and predatory behaviour
by a large number of the Brothers over a considerable period of time. Evidence was
given of boys being abused in many ways for the sexual gratification of the Brothers,
of boys being terrified in bed at night as Brothers stalked the dormitories to come
and take children to their rooms, of boys as pets' of the Brothers being repeatedly
sodomised, and of boys being pressured into bestial acts.

This is a damning indictment of those who perpetrated the abuse in those institutions.
What adds to the tragedy, however, is that these abusive activities were known to
church authorities and they did not act to protect the boys under their care.
A sinular, if less well-known occurrence, was in the orphanage at Neerkol, in the
Rockhampton diocese.

One priest who served as the resident priest at the orphanage
had a fifteen-year reign of terror with the children there, sexually abusing young
boys repeatedly, often as they served as altar boys going to and from Mass in outlying
churches.This abuse occurred in the 1950s and 1960s and cannot be attributed to any
slackening in training or moral formation due to the influence of Vatican 2. This
priest eventually died as a respected and loved figure in the Rockhampton Catholic
community without his history of abuse ever coming to light during his lifetime. His
successor at the orphanage, however, was eventually imprisoned at the age of eighty for
his sexual abuse of children in his pastoral care

Quote
Retired nurse Mary Adams, 64, suffered repeated emotional, physical and sexual mistreatment at the hands of nuns and priests at the Neerkol orphanage near Rockhampton in the 1950s and 1960s, the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse heard.

Sobbing uncontrollably at times, Ms Adams told the hearing in Rockhampton she was punched, slapped, pulled by her hair and on one occasion flogged with a skipping rope so forcefully she struggled to walk for days.

Boys who tried to run away from Neerkol were publicly flogged with horse whips, and those who wet the bed were forced to stand with the soiled sheets draped over their heads.

Ms Adams recounted how when aged 12 she confided in a visiting priest, and he tried to rape her.

Another priest repeatedly molested her while she was billeted to a foster carer in Mackay, the commission heard.

She later received $20,000 compensation from the Catholic Diocese of Rockhampton and the Sisters of Mercy, who ran the orphanage.

However, Ms Adams said she felt let down by the former Catholic bishop of the Rockhampton diocese Brian Heenan, who she said hadn’t made any real attempt to identify the priest who sexually assaulted her at Neerkol.

Hence your claim that the sexual abuse of adult nuns occuring only after Vatican 2 is very doubtful if pre Vatican 2 they couldn't even keep their horrid claws off children!

Also consider the case of this nun who entered a covenant pre Vatican 2 where she was abused, abusive cultures of secrecy take years to develop.

The only difference between the Church pre and post Vatican 2 in terms of sexual abuse has been more willingness among victims to speak out about the abuses. Now that the RCC has been dragged kicking and screaming into the light it's ugliness is plain for all to see. That's why the likes of you miss the 'good old days' when priests were above reproach and few dared challenge them.