Author Topic: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought  (Read 1241 times)

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Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2018, 07:30:02 am »
The whole "Vatican 2 caused all the pervy priests" is a popular dodge amongst traditionalist Catholics wanting to lampshade the whole affair, but it's bullshit.

Quote

As I noted earlier in this essay, some have attempted to lay the blame for the problem
of abuse on shifting attitudes to sexual morality that arose post—Vatican II. Moral
relativism is viewed as a significant contributor to the problem, if not its major cause.
It is important to review the evidence for such a claim as it has consequences for the
ongoing formation of priests and religious. The proposal is suggesting that the older,
more strict forms of formation, where morality was more black and white, together
with the reintroduction of older forms of piety, would help alleviate the problem of
sexual abuse in the church.

It is not difficult to find evidence which would call this proposal into question. In
fact the most notorious cases of sexual abuse in the Australian church occurred in
institutional settings in the 1940s-60s by men (and sometimes women) who were
thoroughly trained in the strict morality and rigorous piety of the' pre—Vatican II
church. There are two such cases that come to mind. The first was the abuse of young
boys at Bindoon, Castledare, Clontarf and Tardun in Western Australia by Christian
Brothers running those institutions. As a Senate report into the abuse there noted:
4.2 The accounts of sexual abuse and assault at these four institutions are horrendous,
supporting and amplifying the UK Committee's description of 'quite exceptional
depravity'. The stories from the ex-residents of Bindoon, Castledare, Clontarf, and
Tardun provide all account of systemic criminal sexual assault and predatory behaviour
by a large number of the Brothers over a considerable period of time. Evidence was
given of boys being abused in many ways for the sexual gratification of the Brothers,
of boys being terrified in bed at night as Brothers stalked the dormitories to come
and take children to their rooms, of boys as pets' of the Brothers being repeatedly
sodomised, and of boys being pressured into bestial acts.

This is a damning indictment of those who perpetrated the abuse in those institutions.
What adds to the tragedy, however, is that these abusive activities were known to
church authorities and they did not act to protect the boys under their care.
A sinular, if less well-known occurrence, was in the orphanage at Neerkol, in the
Rockhampton diocese.

One priest who served as the resident priest at the orphanage
had a fifteen-year reign of terror with the children there, sexually abusing young
boys repeatedly, often as they served as altar boys going to and from Mass in outlying
churches.This abuse occurred in the 1950s and 1960s and cannot be attributed to any
slackening in training or moral formation due to the influence of Vatican 2. This
priest eventually died as a respected and loved figure in the Rockhampton Catholic
community without his history of abuse ever coming to light during his lifetime. His
successor at the orphanage, however, was eventually imprisoned at the age of eighty for
his sexual abuse of children in his pastoral care

Quote
Retired nurse Mary Adams, 64, suffered repeated emotional, physical and sexual mistreatment at the hands of nuns and priests at the Neerkol orphanage near Rockhampton in the 1950s and 1960s, the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse heard.

Sobbing uncontrollably at times, Ms Adams told the hearing in Rockhampton she was punched, slapped, pulled by her hair and on one occasion flogged with a skipping rope so forcefully she struggled to walk for days.

Boys who tried to run away from Neerkol were publicly flogged with horse whips, and those who wet the bed were forced to stand with the soiled sheets draped over their heads.

Ms Adams recounted how when aged 12 she confided in a visiting priest, and he tried to rape her.

Another priest repeatedly molested her while she was billeted to a foster carer in Mackay, the commission heard.

She later received $20,000 compensation from the Catholic Diocese of Rockhampton and the Sisters of Mercy, who ran the orphanage.

However, Ms Adams said she felt let down by the former Catholic bishop of the Rockhampton diocese Brian Heenan, who she said hadn’t made any real attempt to identify the priest who sexually assaulted her at Neerkol.

Hence your claim that the sexual abuse of adult nuns occuring only after Vatican 2 is very doubtful if pre Vatican 2 they couldn't even keep their horrid claws off children!

Also consider the case of this nun who entered a covenant pre Vatican 2 where she was abused, abusive cultures of secrecy take years to develop.

The only difference between the Church pre and post Vatican 2 in terms of sexual abuse has been more willingness among victims to speak out about the abuses. Now that the RCC has been dragged kicking and screaming into the light it's ugliness is plain for all to see. That's why the likes of you miss the 'good old days' when priests were above reproach and few dared challenge them.

Of course it began shortly before Vatican 2 when the corrupt clergy who later presided over Vatican 2 began to infiltrate the Church but it wasn’t until Vatican 2 that the coverup went all the way up to the Vatican

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2018, 07:31:30 am »
Ok, while I abhor the Vatican 2 reforms, I guess the reforms itself are not heretical. However heresy and corruption has sprung out of the Church as a result of the reforms
Says you, or an ordained clergyman of higher rank than those accused of said heresy and/or corruption?
It is not heretical to point out heresy, and corruption committed by those in the Church, many including members of the clergy have done that.
Yes it is, actually. As a layperson, it is not your place to question the clergy. Are they not ordained into God's true church? Do they not follow a strict chain of command all the way up to the Pope, who is of course His representative on earth? If they have committed heresy, that is for whoever is directly above them to decide and address. If you disagree with a clergyman who is fully sanctioned by his superior and by extension the Church as a whole, it is you who is committing heresy, not him.

The Church is only infallible when the Pope defines a Doctrine concerning faith or morals to be upheld by the entire Church.  There is a chain of command, but corruption can and has set foot in the Church all the way up to the Pope himself. Pope Francis not to long ago committed heresy by denying the existence of hell.

If that's the case, then it's still not your place to say. Only a future Pope can decide whether or not his predecessor is wrong. As a laymember of the church, yours is only to listen and accept and never ever question the word of the clergy. If they are ever wrong, then those above them will correct their mistake, not you. If you think you know better than even the lowest ranking ordained clergy, much less the Pope himself, then it is you who is a heretic, not them.

Nowhere in the Catechism does it say that.

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2018, 08:51:56 am »
Ok, while I abhor the Vatican 2 reforms, I guess the reforms itself are not heretical. However heresy and corruption has sprung out of the Church as a result of the reforms
Says you, or an ordained clergyman of higher rank than those accused of said heresy and/or corruption?
It is not heretical to point out heresy, and corruption committed by those in the Church, many including members of the clergy have done that.
Yes it is, actually. As a layperson, it is not your place to question the clergy. Are they not ordained into God's true church? Do they not follow a strict chain of command all the way up to the Pope, who is of course His representative on earth? If they have committed heresy, that is for whoever is directly above them to decide and address. If you disagree with a clergyman who is fully sanctioned by his superior and by extension the Church as a whole, it is you who is committing heresy, not him.

The Church is only infallible when the Pope defines a Doctrine concerning faith or morals to be upheld by the entire Church.  There is a chain of command, but corruption can and has set foot in the Church all the way up to the Pope himself. Pope Francis not to long ago committed heresy by denying the existence of hell.

If that's the case, then it's still not your place to say. Only a future Pope can decide whether or not his predecessor is wrong. As a laymember of the church, yours is only to listen and accept and never ever question the word of the clergy. If they are ever wrong, then those above them will correct their mistake, not you. If you think you know better than even the lowest ranking ordained clergy, much less the Pope himself, then it is you who is a heretic, not them.

Nowhere in the Catechism does it say that.
It's official church doctrine, at least for the traditionalists, which you claim to be. Only the priests and higher clergy have the training and ultimate blessing of God through the Church to read and interpret the scriptures. For the non-ordained, it is their place only to listen to the priest of their parish (this is why both Mass and the Bible were in Latin for the longest time, and why the church was so opposed to it being conducted/printed in other languages that are actually spoken by people). It is simply heresy for you as a layperson to say that any non-excommunicated clergyman is wrong. There's no other way to slice it.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2018, 08:54:41 am »
Of course it began shortly before Vatican 2 when the corrupt clergy who later presided over Vatican 2 began to infiltrate the Church but it wasn’t until Vatican 2 that the coverup went all the way up to the Vatican



You intellectually dishonest little hack!

From the Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Child Abuse.

Quote
At the time of the Second Vatican Council, the issue of sexual abuse by clergy and religious had not yet surfaced with the ferocity that would emerge in the 1980s and 1990s. It is not surprising then that the issue does not rate a mention in the various documents that arose from the council's deliberations. In that sense there is a certain`innocence' about the documents, for they were written at a time when the church still enjoyed a relatively unquestioned obedience from its laity (at least until the storm over Humanae Vitae), and strong respect from society, as a moral authority to be listened to and esteemed. In many countries, church institutions existed in a protected space, either officially through church—state concordats or unofficially through networks of power and influence that the church could call on to protect itself from overt scandal. Police could be trusted to allow church authorities to `deal' with matters through internal processes, and newspaper editors to keep matters off the front page. This situation was not to last in the decades following the council.

Note the highlighted text, it wasn't that the church was magically free from predatory priests while they were still barking at their flock in the language of the iron age Empire that nailed Christ to a tree, it was that the lustre and protected status of the church wore off and people increasingly had the confidence to question its bullshit.

Good thing too or they'd be sweeping it under the carpet even more than they're continuing to do so!
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 08:56:26 am by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2018, 12:33:24 pm »
Of course it began shortly before Vatican 2 when the corrupt clergy who later presided over Vatican 2 began to infiltrate the Church but it wasn’t until Vatican 2 that the coverup went all the way up to the Vatican



You intellectually dishonest little hack!

From the Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Child Abuse.

Quote
At the time of the Second Vatican Council, the issue of sexual abuse by clergy and religious had not yet surfaced with the ferocity that would emerge in the 1980s and 1990s. It is not surprising then that the issue does not rate a mention in the various documents that arose from the council's deliberations. In that sense there is a certain`innocence' about the documents, for they were written at a time when the church still enjoyed a relatively unquestioned obedience from its laity (at least until the storm over Humanae Vitae), and strong respect from society, as a moral authority to be listened to and esteemed. In many countries, church institutions existed in a protected space, either officially through church—state concordats or unofficially through networks of power and influence that the church could call on to protect itself from overt scandal. Police could be trusted to allow church authorities to `deal' with matters through internal processes, and newspaper editors to keep matters off the front page. This situation was not to last in the decades following the council.

Note the highlighted text, it wasn't that the church was magically free from predatory priests while they were still barking at their flock in the language of the iron age Empire that nailed Christ to a tree, it was that the lustre and protected status of the church wore off and people increasingly had the confidence to question its bullshit.

Good thing too or they'd be sweeping it under the carpet even more than they're continuing to do so!

When these scandals were exposed the records show that the scandal dates back to the 1940s, indicating that it is when the church began to be infiltrated by evil predatory clergy and corrupt officials who were involved in the cover up.

Offline Askold

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2018, 01:05:43 pm »
How do you know that there weren't incidents like this before?
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2018, 02:00:52 pm »
How do you know that there weren't incidents like this before?

Because if there were, there would be records of them.

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2018, 02:05:51 pm »
How can you be certain?

Centuries ago it was much easier to hide crimes than now and even the child abuse and murders that have recently been uncovered were decades old so it is more likely that crimes and corruption within the Catholic church is as old as crimes and corruption elsewhere.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2018, 02:17:10 pm »
The fact that the Catholic Church had strict moral code means it is far more likely that the child abuse being uncovered goes back no further than the 1940s. There would be records of strict punishments of priests engaging in the behavior, especially since homosexual sex used to be a huge taboo, so priests caught raping boys would be punished most severely.

Offline Askold

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2018, 02:47:17 pm »
...

a) A lot of organizations have had a strict moral code and there still have been people breaking that code and covering it up.

b) Rape is still a pretty fucking bit deal as far as crimes go but the Catholic church is notable for covering up rape, punishing the victims and letting the rapists off with a slap on their wrist whenever they have a chance.

c) Don't you think that a grown person raping a child is bad even if it isn't gay sex? Because society as a whole thinks that is a lot worse than just homosexuality.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2018, 02:57:49 pm »
...

a) A lot of organizations have had a strict moral code and there still have been people breaking that code and covering it up.

b) Rape is still a pretty fucking bit deal as far as crimes go but the Catholic church is notable for covering up rape, punishing the victims and letting the rapists off with a slap on their wrist whenever they have a chance.

c) Don't you think that a grown person raping a child is bad even if it isn't gay sex? Because society as a whole thinks that is a lot worse than just homosexuality.


a. But the Catholic Church strictly forced their moral code on their clergy and on their Congregation throughout most of history.

b. And rape is a major violation of the church’s moral code

c. Of course it’s horrible. I am saying that in the past, child rape was considered a horrible crime, but homosexual child rape was considered even worse so the Catholic Church in the past would give those priests the most severe punishment proving that the coverup scandal did not begin until the 1940s.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2018, 03:44:37 pm »
You're assuming that these incidents would even have been reported. The Church (and Christianity generally) had a far firmer grip on Western society eighty years ago, so it's entirely possible victims would never have come forward, and also, the people who would have been abused then would be around ninety years old by now.

Plus, records can be destroyed.

And anyway, the Church has had sex scandals going back centuries--look at how many children Roderic de Borja had, by mistresses no less. (He acknowledged four; some sources claim he had up to six more.)

If he were Pope now, of course, he probably would have forced his mistresses to have abortions.
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It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2018, 04:14:14 pm »
You're assuming that these incidents would even have been reported. The Church (and Christianity generally) had a far firmer grip on Western society eighty years ago, so it's entirely possible victims would never have come forward, and also, the people who would have been abused then would be around ninety years old by now.

Plus, records can be destroyed.

And anyway, the Church has had sex scandals going back centuries--look at how many children Roderic de Borja had, by mistresses no less. (He acknowledged four; some sources claim he had up to six more.)

If he were Pope now, of course, he probably would have forced his mistresses to have abortions.

Well over 80 years ago, there would be records of victims reporting cases to secular authorities.

And the Catholic Church considers Pope Alexander VI to be one of the bad popes for breaking the Church’s code of celibacy.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2018, 05:00:28 pm »
You're assuming that these incidents would even have been reported. The Church (and Christianity generally) had a far firmer grip on Western society eighty years ago, so it's entirely possible victims would never have come forward, and also, the people who would have been abused then would be around ninety years old by now.

Plus, records can be destroyed.

And anyway, the Church has had sex scandals going back centuries--look at how many children Roderic de Borja had, by mistresses no less. (He acknowledged four; some sources claim he had up to six more.)

If he were Pope now, of course, he probably would have forced his mistresses to have abortions.

Well over 80 years ago, there would be records of victims reporting cases to secular authorities.

And the Catholic Church considers Pope Alexander VI to be one of the bad popes for breaking the Church’s code of celibacy.

80 years ago, secular authorities were, as already noted, even more subservient to Christianity than they are today.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2018, 05:07:57 pm »
You're assuming that these incidents would even have been reported. The Church (and Christianity generally) had a far firmer grip on Western society eighty years ago, so it's entirely possible victims would never have come forward, and also, the people who would have been abused then would be around ninety years old by now.

Plus, records can be destroyed.

And anyway, the Church has had sex scandals going back centuries--look at how many children Roderic de Borja had, by mistresses no less. (He acknowledged four; some sources claim he had up to six more.)

If he were Pope now, of course, he probably would have forced his mistresses to have abortions.

Well over 80 years ago, there would be records of victims reporting cases to secular authorities.

And the Catholic Church considers Pope Alexander VI to be one of the bad popes for breaking the Church’s code of celibacy.

80 years ago, secular authorities were, as already noted, even more subservient to Christianity than they are today.

Well the United States was majority Protestant so the authorities in the US 80 years ago would not be subservient to the Catholic Church, so such scandals in the United States would be reported