Author Topic: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought  (Read 1248 times)

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Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #75 on: August 04, 2018, 07:34:21 pm »
Nothing to say about sex abuse in Eastern Orthodox churches, Jacob?
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #76 on: August 04, 2018, 07:56:42 pm »
Nothing to say about sex abuse in Eastern Orthodox churches, Jacob?

It shows that the Roman Catholic Church is not the only Church with such scandals. Sex abuse also happens in some Protestant churches

Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #77 on: August 04, 2018, 08:02:07 pm »
Nothing to say about sex abuse in Eastern Orthodox churches, Jacob?

It shows that the Roman Catholic Church is not the only Church with such scandals. Sex abuse also happens in some Protestant churches

Agreed.

So it's not Vatican II, then.

As I said, I maintain that it's clericalism.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #78 on: August 04, 2018, 08:21:28 pm »
Nothing to say about sex abuse in Eastern Orthodox churches, Jacob?

It shows that the Roman Catholic Church is not the only Church with such scandals. Sex abuse also happens in some Protestant churches

Agreed.

So it's not Vatican II, then.

As I said, I maintain that it's clericalism.

It is evil clergy not the system of clericalism itself that is the problem. There needs to be more righteous clerg6 in the Catholic Church

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #79 on: August 04, 2018, 08:47:57 pm »
Nothing to say about sex abuse in Eastern Orthodox churches, Jacob?

It shows that the Roman Catholic Church is not the only Church with such scandals. Sex abuse also happens in some Protestant churches

Agreed.

So it's not Vatican II, then.

As I said, I maintain that it's clericalism.

It is evil clergy not the system of clericalism itself that is the problem. There needs to be more righteous clerg6 in the Catholic Church
That won't work, the problem isn't even mainly individual clergy-it's what the churches let them get away with. The problem is that maintaining the appearance of righteousness is more important to churches because they're in the business of public relations. It's the good graces of their flock that keep them in business. The path of least resistance for churches plural, not just the Catholics has been to silence the victims. If you punish the abusers then you have to publicly admit you have a problem which is bad PR.

In fact, convincing the Church and the faithful that you only have righteous priests working for you now is more likely to exacerbate the problem.

Quote
A recurrent theme in Australian victims’ accounts is how their parents’ religious beliefs
and trust and reverence for members of the clergy meant that they could not conceive of
the possibility that priests could sexually abuse their children and betray their own vows.
Yet there is ample evidence that this trust and reverence was sadly misplaced and the
same caution that would be applied to other members of society needs to be applied to
members of the clergy.
Churches too must increase their index of suspicion about the possibility of priests being
capable of CSA and mandatory reporting of CSA should be introduced for the clergy. In the
Victorian Inquiry, Archbishop Hart in attempting to explain the behaviour of his
predecessor Archbishop Little in keeping no records of abusive priests, described him as a
sensitive man who found it hard to believe that priests could do such ‘evil, evil things’.
Leaving decisions about how to respond to CPCSA and perpetrator priests to the discretion
of Archbishops or anyone else in the Church is totally unacceptable.
The chairman of Catholics for Renewal and chairman of Vincent Care Victoria, Peter
Johnstone, in a submission to the Victorian Inquiry on May 1, 2013, demanded that the
church’s internal abuse response process (The Melbourne Response) was replaced by a
government body and that legal options for victims were strengthened.


What we need is harsher punishments for anybody in an institution that works with children in any capacity who covers up criminal offenses, bishop covers for a priest, they both share the same cell for the rest of their miserable days. That's how you stop it.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2018, 08:54:05 pm by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #80 on: August 04, 2018, 09:03:20 pm »
Nothing to say about sex abuse in Eastern Orthodox churches, Jacob?

It shows that the Roman Catholic Church is not the only Church with such scandals. Sex abuse also happens in some Protestant churches

Agreed.

So it's not Vatican II, then.

As I said, I maintain that it's clericalism.

It is evil clergy not the system of clericalism itself that is the problem. There needs to be more righteous clerg6 in the Catholic Church
That won't work, the problem isn't even mainly individual clergy-it's what the churches let them get away with. The problem is that maintaining the appearance of righteousness is more important to churches because they're in the business of public relations. It's the good graces of their flock that keep them in business. The path of least resistance for churches plural, not just the Catholics has been to silence the victims. If you punish the abusers then you have to publicly admit you have a problem which is bad PR.

In fact, convincing the Church and the faithful that you only have righteous priests working for you now is more likely to exacerbate the problem.

Quote
A recurrent theme in Australian victims’ accounts is how their parents’ religious beliefs
and trust and reverence for members of the clergy meant that they could not conceive of
the possibility that priests could sexually abuse their children and betray their own vows.
Yet there is ample evidence that this trust and reverence was sadly misplaced and the
same caution that would be applied to other members of society needs to be applied to
members of the clergy.
Churches too must increase their index of suspicion about the possibility of priests being
capable of CSA and mandatory reporting of CSA should be introduced for the clergy. In the
Victorian Inquiry, Archbishop Hart in attempting to explain the behaviour of his
predecessor Archbishop Little in keeping no records of abusive priests, described him as a
sensitive man who found it hard to believe that priests could do such ‘evil, evil things’.
Leaving decisions about how to respond to CPCSA and perpetrator priests to the discretion
of Archbishops or anyone else in the Church is totally unacceptable.
The chairman of Catholics for Renewal and chairman of Vincent Care Victoria, Peter
Johnstone, in a submission to the Victorian Inquiry on May 1, 2013, demanded that the
church’s internal abuse response process (The Melbourne Response) was replaced by a
government body and that legal options for victims were strengthened.


What we need is harsher punishments for anybody in an institution that works with children in any capacity who covers up criminal offenses, bishop covers for a priest, they both share the same cell for the rest of their miserable days. That's how you stop it.

I agree with you that harsher punishments and mandatory reporting is needed.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #81 on: August 04, 2018, 09:19:29 pm »
Except abiding by mandatory reporting would require a huge change in Catholic doctrine, because the seal of the confessional is inviolate, and those hearing confessions would be required either to break the law or violate said seal.

For me, the solution begins with treating religions like all other businesses (and, of course, actually punishing businesses when they break the law). Religious belief cannot be a reason to ignore secular law.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #82 on: August 04, 2018, 09:22:43 pm »
It doesn't just require mandatory reporting, to be truly secure it requires a change in church doctrine
and culture even more sweeping than Vatican II, investigations must take place with the local authorities and priests have to be kicked off their pedestal and treated like any other employee.


Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #83 on: August 04, 2018, 09:31:51 pm »
It doesn't just require mandatory reporting, to be truly secure it requires a change in church doctrine
and culture even more sweeping than Vatican II, investigations must take place with the local authorities and priests have to be kicked off their pedestal and treated like any other employee.

I agree with the other things but why does the Church have to change it’s doctrine? How would that stop the scandal?

Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #84 on: August 04, 2018, 09:46:01 pm »
It doesn't just require mandatory reporting, to be truly secure it requires a change in church doctrine
and culture even more sweeping than Vatican II, investigations must take place with the local authorities and priests have to be kicked off their pedestal and treated like any other employee.

I agree with the other things but why does the Church have to change it’s doctrine? How would that stop the scandal?

If nothing else, as I said, mandatory reporting would conflict with the seal of the confessional.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #85 on: August 16, 2018, 01:20:57 am »
And it gets even worse.

https://www.newsweek.com/pennsylvania-priest-accused-child-abuse-reference-disney-world-job-grand-1072885
https://cbspittsburgh.files.wordpress.com/2018/08/interimredactedreportandresponses.pdf

A grand jury in Pennsylvania has issued a report detailing sex abuse in six Catholic dioceses in Pennsylvania.

In one case, a priest who had been, by his own request, laicized in order to get married, had had child sexual abuse alleged against him prior to his laicization, but nonetheless received a reference from his former diocese to work at Walt Disney World, where he remained for 18 years as a train driver.

Five bishops submitted written statements; one appeared in person.

Quote
In total, the grand jury found credible allegations against over 300 priests and identified over 1,000 child victims, although they believe the real number of victims is higher.

EDIT: The first five paragraphs of the grand jury's report.

Quote
We, the members of this grand jury, need you to hear this. We know some of you have heard some of it before. There have been other reports about child sex abuse within the Catholic Church. But never on this scale. For many of us, those earlier stories happened someplace else, someplace away. Now we know the truth: it happened everywhere.

We were given the job of investigating child sex abuse in six dioceses - every diocese in the state except Philadelphia and Altoona -Johnstown, which were the subject of previous grand juries. These six dioceses account for 54 of Pennsylvania's 67 counties. We heard the testimony of dozens of witnesses concerning clergy sex abuse. We subpoenaed, and reviewed, half a million pages of internal diocesan documents. They contained credible allegations against over three hundred predator priests. Over one thousand child victims were identifiable, from the church's own records. We believe that the real number - of children whose records were lost, or who were afraid ever to come forward - is in the thousands.

Most of the victims were boys; but there were girls too. Some were teens; many were prepubescent. Some were manipulated with alcohol or pornography. Some were made to masturbate their assailants, or were groped by them. Some were raped orally, some vaginally, some anally. But all of them were brushed aside, in every part of the state, by church leaders who preferred to protect the abusers and their institution above all.

As a consequence of the coverup, almost every instance of abuse we found is too old to be prosecuted. But that is not to say there are no more predators. This grand jury has issued presentments against a priest in the Greensburg diocese and a priest in the Erie Diocese, who has been sexually assaulting children within the last decade. We learned of these abusers directly from their dioceses - which we hope is a sign that the church is finally changing its ways. And there may be more indictments in the future; investigation continues.

But we are not satisfied by the few charges we can bring, which represent only a tiny percentage of all the child abusers we saw. We are sick over all the crimes that will go unpunished and uncompensated. This report is our only recourse. We are going to name their names, and describe what they did - both the sex offenders and those who concealed them. We are going to shine a light on their conduct, because that is what the victims deserve. And we are going to make our recommendations for how the laws should change so that maybe no one will have to conduct another inquiry like this one. We hereby exercise our historical and statutory right as grand jurors to inform the public of our findings.

(emphases in original)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 01:28:59 am by dpareja »
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #86 on: August 16, 2018, 01:38:55 am »
Cue Jacob whining that V2 made 'em do it, which is essentially the same as saying that the church being insufficiently conservative is the problem.

The problem arises from the Church's conservatism, it's their reflex to protect the powerful and lampshade uncomfortable realities!

Offline dpareja

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #87 on: August 16, 2018, 01:48:16 am »
It's a long report. But at least read the introduction.

One victim who came forward was eighty-three years old. Since they were only looking at child sex abuse, that would mean that, even if that testimony was heard this year and the victim was abused shortly before turning 18, the abuse happened no later than 1953.

Vatican II my ass.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Skybison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #88 on: August 16, 2018, 01:58:28 am »
Vatican 2 is a time machine.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: Why the Catholic Church is even more morally bankrupt than we thought
« Reply #89 on: August 16, 2018, 07:36:27 am »
It's a long report. But at least read the introduction.

One victim who came forward was eighty-three years old. Since they were only looking at child sex abuse, that would mean that, even if that testimony was heard this year and the victim was abused shortly before turning 18, the abuse happened no later than 1953.

Vatican II my ass.

As I keep saying, corrupt clergy began infiltrating the Church before Vatican II and Vatican II was a result of that.