Author Topic: Amazon is aiding in mass deportations  (Read 584 times)

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Offline dpareja

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Re: Amazon is aiding in mass deportations
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2018, 01:44:35 pm »
https://bipartisanpolicy.org/blog/how-do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-federal-taxes-an-explainer/

The IRS set up a system called the ITIN (Individual Taxpayer Identification Number). The idea was that it would be used by legal immigrants who did not have a Social Security Number for whatever reason. However, many undocumented immigrants use it to file federal income and payroll taxes (yes, they pay into Social Security and Medicare and likely never see any benefit from it), especially if their employer withholds those (in which case they can get the appropriate refund). Note that they are ineligible for almost all federal benefits and credits. Many file hoping that it will help them in case they ever try to get citizenship, or at least not get deported. (And then of course there are some who have been in the US long enough to get married to citizens, have citizen children, start small businesses hiring citizens and/or legal immigrants--so far from taking jobs, they've created jobs.)

As for the jobs they do, in many cases they are jobs those who can work legally simply will not do. When Georgia cracked down on undocumented workers, their economy crashed because fruit went unpicked and then rotted on the vine. Farmers have tried offering good wages and benefits to people authorized to work--$15/hr, health insurance, retirement pension--and can't find anyone willing to do the work even at those wages. (One story I heard was of a farmer who hired four workers--three authorized, one unauthorized--and the only one who hadn't quit by the end of the first day was the unauthorized worker.) The jobs they're taking, in many cases, are ones citizens and legal immigrants simply will not do, but are absolutely vital to the US economy.

As for controlling immigrant intake, you're right that every country must exercise control over that. However, it is racist to do so by controlling immigration on a racial basis. (And yes, US society generally benefits from illegal immigrants, who pay into the system but get nothing out of it, which helps keep Social Security solvent.) Controlling immigration on a merit basis is absolutely fine. Controlling it on a racial basis (which, in all fairness, Canada did pre-WWII--there was a list of "preferred races," at the top being the British, then the Germans, and various other European nationalities; Jews were allowed only if they were British, or by special waiver--almost never granted, and as a result Canada took in around 5,000 Jewish refugees during WWII and about 6,000 Nazi war criminals after WWII) is a racist policy.

As for the Australian Constitution being "the same throughout"... that means it's created second-class citizens throughout its existence. A provision always having been in there doesn't make it good. Further, as I've noted, some citizenships are extremely difficult to get rid of (US citizenship especially), meaning that the prospective office-seeker can make every effort to get rid of their secondary citizenship and fail through no fault of their own.

Quote
You can also help stabilize the economical and humanitarian situation in the countries they are coming from. Unfortunately when it comes to geopolitics US is usually doing the opposite.

Let's keep in mind that a lot of these people are fleeing gang violence in Latin America. That violence is generally a result of powerful drug cartels, which exist with the power they have because of the "War on Drugs".
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Offline ironbite

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Re: Amazon is aiding in mass deportations
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2018, 04:20:03 pm »
But I thought Amazon hated Trump!

Offline dpareja

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Re: Amazon is aiding in mass deportations
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2018, 04:26:45 pm »
But I thought Amazon hated Trump!

Not when cooperating with Trump brings in lots of money.
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Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: Amazon is aiding in mass deportations
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2018, 01:16:06 am »
If you get caught stealing in Saudi-Arabia and get your hand chopped off you should have known better. What else can the authorities do, they have a law to follow.

A country has a duty to all the people within its borders to treat them humanely. This doesn't mean that everyone has to have the same rights as a citizen but it does mean protection from a disproportionate punishment. If the situation is such that following the letter of a law has a disproportionately harmful effect then the law and/or how it's applied must be adjusted.
Yes indeed, chopping off a limb is a disproportionate response. However, taking back what was stolen and returning it to its rightful owner is not. It's more the bare minimum response to theft. I do agree that people who break the law should be dealt with humanely, however that doesn't mean they should just be wilfully ignored because not doing so is racist or something. Yes, obviously ICE's current shtick of sticking them in cages because reasons is a tad undignified and unnecessary, to say the least. However, the fact remains that simply putting them on a bus or plane back home is not a disproportionate or cruel and unusual response, and is in fact the sensible thing to do.
If you want to decrease illegal immigration you can take actions such as enforcing living wages and punishing employers who take advantage of the illegal immigrants by paying them lower wages. You can also help stabilize the economical and humanitarian situation in the countries they are coming from. Unfortunately when it comes to geopolitics US is usually doing the opposite.
You know what else you can do? You can actually enforce your own immigration laws and make sure people who are found to be in the country illegally are removed from the country. It's what they do in every other country that doesn't have a national guilt complex, and I have to say it does the job quite nicely. Obviously illegal immigrants are still a thing outside America, but nowhere near in the numbers you guys have, nor is the entire economy geared to take advantage of them. So yeah, it just works.
https://bipartisanpolicy.org/blog/how-do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-federal-taxes-an-explainer/

The IRS set up a system called the ITIN (Individual Taxpayer Identification Number). The idea was that it would be used by legal immigrants who did not have a Social Security Number for whatever reason. However, many undocumented immigrants use it to file federal income and payroll taxes (yes, they pay into Social Security and Medicare and likely never see any benefit from it), especially if their employer withholds those (in which case they can get the appropriate refund). Note that they are ineligible for almost all federal benefits and credits. Many file hoping that it will help them in case they ever try to get citizenship, or at least not get deported. (And then of course there are some who have been in the US long enough to get married to citizens, have citizen children, start small businesses hiring citizens and/or legal immigrants--so far from taking jobs, they've created jobs.)
Alright, I stand corrected. Some of them do indeed pay taxes. As for getting married, starting businesses and creating, well, I can't really buy that's any more than a tiny minority of them. Even if some of them did, it really wouldn't have anything to do with those who work for near-slave wages. They're not one monolithic entity, after all, but rather a group of individuals who are not collectively responsible for each other's actions.
As for the jobs they do, in many cases they are jobs those who can work legally simply will not do. When Georgia cracked down on undocumented workers, their economy crashed because fruit went unpicked and then rotted on the vine. Farmers have tried offering good wages and benefits to people authorized to work--$15/hr, health insurance, retirement pension--and can't find anyone willing to do the work even at those wages. (One story I heard was of a farmer who hired four workers--three authorized, one unauthorized--and the only one who hadn't quit by the end of the first day was the unauthorized worker.) The jobs they're taking, in many cases, are ones citizens and legal immigrants simply will not do, but are absolutely vital to the US economy.
That is interesting. What's especially interesting is that that's more or less the pay and benefits of a construction worker in the US, and they have no problem finding legal workers who'll stick around. I wonder what exactly the difference could be. Perhaps being seasonal might have something to do with it. Ah well, I'm getting a bit off topic. Still, fact remains that if locals won't do it for whatever reason, seasonal work visas are certainly a thing. Bring in those hard working foreigners, pay them a proper amount and then send them back home when the work dries up. Can't go wrong, eh?
As for controlling immigrant intake, you're right that every country must exercise control over that. However, it is racist to do so by controlling immigration on a racial basis. (And yes, US society generally benefits from illegal immigrants, who pay into the system but get nothing out of it, which helps keep Social Security solvent.) Controlling immigration on a merit basis is absolutely fine. Controlling it on a racial basis (which, in all fairness, Canada did pre-WWII--there was a list of "preferred races," at the top being the British, then the Germans, and various other European nationalities; Jews were allowed only if they were British, or by special waiver--almost never granted, and as a result Canada took in around 5,000 Jewish refugees during WWII and about 6,000 Nazi war criminals after WWII) is a racist policy.
Two questions. First, which countries are selecting immigrants based on race? Second, what does that have to do with deporting people who enter the country illegally?

Offline Svata

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Re: Amazon is aiding in mass deportations
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2018, 02:42:20 am »
If you get caught stealing in Saudi-Arabia and get your hand chopped off you should have known better. What else can the authorities do, they have a law to follow.

A country has a duty to all the people within its borders to treat them humanely. This doesn't mean that everyone has to have the same rights as a citizen but it does mean protection from a disproportionate punishment. If the situation is such that following the letter of a law has a disproportionately harmful effect then the law and/or how it's applied must be adjusted.
Yes indeed, chopping off a limb is a disproportionate response. However, taking back what was stolen and returning it to its rightful owner is not. It's more the bare minimum response to theft. I do agree that people who break the law should be dealt with humanely, however that doesn't mean they should just be wilfully ignored because not doing so is racist or something. Yes, obviously ICE's current shtick of sticking them in cages because reasons is a tad undignified and unnecessary, to say the least. However, the fact remains that simply putting them on a bus or plane back home is not a disproportionate or cruel and unusual response, and is in fact the sensible thing to do.


Many, if not most, left because they feared for their lives. Because if they did not leave, they would die. If you send them back, knowing that when they get back, they will be killed, you are complicit in their murder, and nearly as responsible for it as the person who killed them. Also, illegal entry is a misdemeanor. You're essentially proposing the death penalty for a misdemeanor.
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Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: Amazon is aiding in mass deportations
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2018, 04:56:52 am »
Many, if not most, left because they feared for their lives. Because if they did not leave, they would die. If you send them back, knowing that when they get back, they will be killed, you are complicit in their murder, and nearly as responsible for it as the person who killed them. Also, illegal entry is a misdemeanor. You're essentially proposing the death penalty for a misdemeanor.
Yes, that's always the story, isn't it? Apparently, some very powerful people have it in specifically for several million fruit pickers and other assorted individuals. Individuals for whom the border is but a minor inconvenience, but stop these murder-happy foes dead in their tracks. But hey, I'm sure it's all true. After all, they totally wouldn't lie to avoid being deported, would they?

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Re: Amazon is aiding in mass deportations
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2018, 05:46:52 am »
We have no reason other than the rankest sort of self serving cynicism professed by the likes of the alt-right to not believe them. Clearly these attitudes about borders being sacred in some way and needing deportation to be preserved is a communicable disease spread by the mouths of the idiotic right wing populists.

The only thing that can be done is to look down one's nose at these imbecile contrarians and treat them the way they deserve to be treated - societal malfeasants who course through established rhetoric like poison.

If this is as Art says concern for Americans who would do these jobs and then get higher standards of life in this job, there is utterly no reason for the employers not to treat illegal workers with the same respect as American Citizen workers.

If the rural whites cannot get these farming jobs, then I suppose they'll just need to rot if they've nothing to offer.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 05:53:27 am by niam2023 »
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Re: Amazon is aiding in mass deportations
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2018, 06:54:04 am »
If you get caught stealing in Saudi-Arabia and get your hand chopped off you should have known better. What else can the authorities do, they have a law to follow.

A country has a duty to all the people within its borders to treat them humanely. This doesn't mean that everyone has to have the same rights as a citizen but it does mean protection from a disproportionate punishment. If the situation is such that following the letter of a law has a disproportionately harmful effect then the law and/or how it's applied must be adjusted.
Yes indeed, chopping off a limb is a disproportionate response. However, taking back what was stolen and returning it to its rightful owner is not. It's more the bare minimum response to theft. I do agree that people who break the law should be dealt with humanely, however that doesn't mean they should just be wilfully ignored because not doing so is racist or something. Yes, obviously ICE's current shtick of sticking them in cages because reasons is a tad undignified and unnecessary, to say the least. However, the fact remains that simply putting them on a bus or plane back home is not a disproportionate or cruel and unusual response, and is in fact the sensible thing to do.
If you want to decrease illegal immigration you can take actions such as enforcing living wages and punishing employers who take advantage of the illegal immigrants by paying them lower wages. You can also help stabilize the economical and humanitarian situation in the countries they are coming from. Unfortunately when it comes to geopolitics US is usually doing the opposite.
You know what else you can do? You can actually enforce your own immigration laws and make sure people who are found to be in the country illegally are removed from the country. It's what they do in every other country that doesn't have a national guilt complex, and I have to say it does the job quite nicely. Obviously illegal immigrants are still a thing outside America, but nowhere near in the numbers you guys have, nor is the entire economy geared to take advantage of them. So yeah, it just works.

First of all, I'm Finnish, not American. The reason I'm arguing this issue is that I value human life and dignity and hate dismissing them because of either racism or an authoritarian respect of a system above people. If a system first provides incentives* for people to come to the country and then takes advantage of them then the system in question has the responsibility to do right by these people if it wants to change how it works. Heck, even if it hadn't provided these incentives it would still have the moral responsibility to respect their human dignity.

An immigrant who has built a life and started a family in a country where they have lived for years is in a situation where taking all this away is an inhumane punishment. Ignoring the pain caused in this process both to them and their family members means or arguing that they deserve it because one or some of them have committed a minor infraction years ago means you are dismissing their humanity.

*"Incentives" is putting it lightly. USA and the corporations it supports have participated and are actively participating in the situations the immigrants are running away from in addition to having industries taking advantage of their labor.

Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: Amazon is aiding in mass deportations
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2018, 08:17:18 am »
First of all, I'm Finnish, not American. The reason I'm arguing this issue is that I value human life and dignity and hate dismissing them because of either racism or an authoritarian respect of a system above people. If a system first provides incentives* for people to come to the country and then takes advantage of them then the system in question has the responsibility to do right by these people if it wants to change how it works. Heck, even if it hadn't provided these incentives it would still have the moral responsibility to respect their human dignity.

An immigrant who has built a life and started a family in a country where they have lived for years is in a situation where taking all this away is an inhumane punishment. Ignoring the pain caused in this process both to them and their family members means or arguing that they deserve it because one or some of them have committed a minor infraction years ago means you are dismissing their humanity.

*"Incentives" is putting it lightly. USA and the corporations it supports have participated and are actively participating in the situations the immigrants are running away from in addition to having industries taking advantage of their labor.
Yeah, I can't really say I buy that excuse. For starters, it's not "a minor infraction years ago", as if the specific act of hopping the border is all they did wrong, and simply not getting caught is enough to set it right. No, living and working in a foreign country when you don't have a proper visa for it is largely the issue here. Far from being a single incident years ago, all the time they've spent living and working illegally in the country has been, well, illegal. Far from being a punishment of a specific thing they did years ago, deportation simply puts the situation the way it should've been from the very beginning. I.e. The person that is illegally residing in a foreign country is no longer doing so.

This is why you don't try and set down roots in a foreign country if you aren't there legally. Because eventually you will be caught and sent back home. If you want to bring up about humanity, last I checked humans aren't cows or some other dumb herd animal. They're fully capable of informed decision making, and therefore responsible for those decisions. Especially so when the consequences of certain choices were clearly spelled out from the very beginning.

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Re: Amazon is aiding in mass deportations
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2018, 04:52:08 pm »
So you are confirming you are a slobbering adherent of this outdated status quo, then?
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Re: Amazon is aiding in mass deportations
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2018, 05:19:01 pm »
Some people flee because in their country of origin their sexuality is punishable by death. Some people flee because there is a war or natural disaster that is making life impossible for them in their country of origin.

Moving into a country where a person isn't executed for being in a consensual relationship with another adult or where people aren't starving to death because there is literally no food left is an improvement.


Heck, look at the civil wars in the middle east. How would you pick a side to support? Can you blame those people for saying "fuck this" and getting their kids out of there?
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Re: Amazon is aiding in mass deportations
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2018, 05:56:07 pm »
First of all, I'm Finnish, not American. The reason I'm arguing this issue is that I value human life and dignity and hate dismissing them because of either racism or an authoritarian respect of a system above people. If a system first provides incentives* for people to come to the country and then takes advantage of them then the system in question has the responsibility to do right by these people if it wants to change how it works. Heck, even if it hadn't provided these incentives it would still have the moral responsibility to respect their human dignity.

An immigrant who has built a life and started a family in a country where they have lived for years is in a situation where taking all this away is an inhumane punishment. Ignoring the pain caused in this process both to them and their family members means or arguing that they deserve it because one or some of them have committed a minor infraction years ago means you are dismissing their humanity.

*"Incentives" is putting it lightly. USA and the corporations it supports have participated and are actively participating in the situations the immigrants are running away from in addition to having industries taking advantage of their labor.
Yeah, I can't really say I buy that excuse. For starters, it's not "a minor infraction years ago", as if the specific act of hopping the border is all they did wrong, and simply not getting caught is enough to set it right. No, living and working in a foreign country when you don't have a proper visa for it is largely the issue here. Far from being a single incident years ago, all the time they've spent living and working illegally in the country has been, well, illegal. Far from being a punishment of a specific thing they did years ago, deportation simply puts the situation the way it should've been from the very beginning. I.e. The person that is illegally residing in a foreign country is no longer doing so.

This is why you don't try and set down roots in a foreign country if you aren't there legally. Because eventually you will be caught and sent back home. If you want to bring up about humanity, last I checked humans aren't cows or some other dumb herd animal. They're fully capable of informed decision making, and therefore responsible for those decisions. Especially so when the consequences of certain choices were clearly spelled out from the very beginning.

I'm not going to bother with the strawman about systematic incentives. Let's just assume that this situation came from nowhere and Americans suddenly realized there are millions of people living in the country who each as an individual made the personal decision to enter the country without going through the official process.

What is the most moral solution? To direct resources to hunting down all these people, making their lives miserable and throwing out as many of them as possible or to adjust the system to find a path that causes least suffering? The process of deporting them is going to demand immense effort and cause widespread pain and chaos to these people and the communities they live in. You cannot just snap your fingers and make them disappear.

It's a perfectly logical position to argue that they broke the rules and need to be punished for it. It's also an authoritarian position that cares more about enforcing the existing rules and practices than adjusting the system to produce most humane results possible. Since that is what you see as the simple and rational solution I don't think there is going to be a productive result from continuing the debate. This is simply a question of one's basic values and we are going to just keep going around repeating the same arguments in different forms.

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Re: Amazon is aiding in mass deportations
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2018, 12:44:54 am »
It's a perfectly logical position to argue that they broke the rules and need to be punished for it. It's also an authoritarian position that cares more about enforcing the existing rules and practices than adjusting the system to produce most humane results possible. Since that is what you see as the simple and rational solution I don't think there is going to be a productive result from continuing the debate. This is simply a question of one's basic values and we are going to just keep going around repeating the same arguments in different forms.
Alright, fair enough. Good talk, friend.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Amazon is aiding in mass deportations
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2018, 10:02:44 pm »
https://theintercept.com/2018/07/27/immigrant-detention-suicides-ice-corecivic/

Calling for border security is one thing. Even saying that undocumented immigrants should be deported, even to places where they face a very high risk of being killed, even to places where they haven't been for decades and face a very high risk of being killed, is one thing. (A very inhumane thing, but...)

Detaining people with schizophrenia and putting them in solitary confinement for three weeks is torture. In this case (and a number of others) the man in question took his own life afterward. The UN has said this is torture. ICE rules prohibit it--but they do it anyway.
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It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

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Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.