Author Topic: The Ultimate Question  (Read 667 times)

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Offline Jacob Harrison

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The Ultimate Question
« on: August 26, 2018, 12:12:32 pm »
I know that I haven’t convinced you that the Christian God exists despite the overwhelming evidence I showed when trying to convert you. However think about it, shouldn’t you worship him just in case he exists so that you don’t go to hell?

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Offline Askold

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2018, 12:21:20 pm »
That's a really, really bad argument. Because if you are just going with "playing the odds" take on the religion then why worship Christian God when you could go for any of the other religions? Zoroastrianism is older than Christianity so why not that? There's lots of religions with pantheons and worshiping a lot of gods at the same time would get you better chances of being right purely by luck than a monotheistic religion. In fact, why not go for one of those cooky new age religions that are cool with orgies and drugs because that gives you a better reward than some of the tougher religions as it is easier not to break the rules. Kinda like, why pay 5€ for a lottery ticket when the reward is 10'000€ when you could buy a ticket with the potential reward of 100'000€ that's on sale for the same price? It's not like your chances of winning are any different?

Heck, if the only argument you have for your religion is "it could be the right one, I dunno?" then you have a very weak argument.
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Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2018, 01:29:40 pm »
That's a really, really bad argument. Because if you are just going with "playing the odds" take on the religion then why worship Christian God when you could go for any of the other religions? Zoroastrianism is older than Christianity so why not that? There's lots of religions with pantheons and worshiping a lot of gods at the same time would get you better chances of being right purely by luck than a monotheistic religion. In fact, why not go for one of those cooky new age religions that are cool with orgies and drugs because that gives you a better reward than some of the tougher religions as it is easier not to break the rules. Kinda like, why pay 5€ for a lottery ticket when the reward is 10'000€ when you could buy a ticket with the potential reward of 100'000€ that's on sale for the same price? It's not like your chances of winning are any different?

Heck, if the only argument you have for your religion is "it could be the right one, I dunno?" then you have a very weak argument.

But Christianity and Islam are the only religions where non believers get damned to hell. Christianity is more likely than Islam because Christianity is older, more similar to Judaism, does not merge the monotheistic God with the pagan moon diety Allah, and does not have the far fetched story of a prophet memorizizing all the Quranic verses recited to him by an angel before writing them down.

So not worshipping the Christian God has a far greater loss than the other gods.

Offline dpareja

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2018, 02:26:34 pm »
Oh for fuck's sake Pascal's Wager?
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2018, 02:37:13 pm »
Oh for fuck's sake Pascal's Wager?

I already addressed the many religions objections of Pascal’s wager in my previous comment on why Christianity stands out.

Offline dpareja

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2018, 02:41:50 pm »
So you believe in a God dumb enough not to see through the fact that we'd be worshipping it (or going through the motions of worship) because of some probabilistic notion and not because we actually do believe?
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2018, 02:48:09 pm »
So you believe in a God dumb enough not to see through the fact that we'd be worshipping it (or going through the motions of worship) because of some probabilistic notion and not because we actually do believe?

He will see that you wish to be saved and will eventually make you believe once he answers your prayers.

“Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you.” Mathew 7:7
« Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 02:52:41 pm by Jacob Harrison »

Offline davedan

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2018, 04:01:33 pm »
Islam is unlikely because Mohammed had to memorise the verses. Christianity suffers from no such credibility problems, such as:
holding a criminal trial at passover
a roman governor being bullied by the locals into executing someone he doesn't want to
a man so famous he was going to spark a revolution needing to be identified by one of his followers

etc etc

And that's not touching the wedding at Cana, the loaves and the fishes, the resurrection of lazaraus, the resurrection, the astronomical events otherwise unreported.

Yes I know which is more likely.

Offline ironbite

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2018, 04:21:52 pm »
I'm sorry ultimate question?

Ironbite-it's anything you want your cousin to wear dude.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2018, 04:51:24 pm »
That's a really, really bad argument. Because if you are just going with "playing the odds" take on the religion then why worship Christian God when you could go for any of the other religions? Zoroastrianism is older than Christianity so why not that? There's lots of religions with pantheons and worshiping a lot of gods at the same time would get you better chances of being right purely by luck than a monotheistic religion. In fact, why not go for one of those cooky new age religions that are cool with orgies and drugs because that gives you a better reward than some of the tougher religions as it is easier not to break the rules. Kinda like, why pay 5€ for a lottery ticket when the reward is 10'000€ when you could buy a ticket with the potential reward of 100'000€ that's on sale for the same price? It's not like your chances of winning are any different?

Heck, if the only argument you have for your religion is "it could be the right one, I dunno?" then you have a very weak argument.

But Christianity and Islam are the only religions where non believers get damned to hell. Christianity is more likely than Islam because Christianity is older, more similar to Judaism, does not merge the monotheistic God with the pagan moon diety Allah, and does not have the far fetched story of a prophet memorizizing all the Quranic verses recited to him by an angel before writing them down.

So not worshipping the Christian God has a far greater loss than the other gods.
Uh, the ancient Greeks had eternal afterlife punishments too. Likely early Greek Christian converts borrowed the concept as it's foreign to Judaism.

Here again Jacob demonstrates that his faith is incredibly weak, I have a lot of Catholics in my family and they are very defensive of their faith and believe in it strongly but it's not the threat of hell that keeps them there and they don't use it on other people-and this doesn't necessarily mean they don't believe in hell. They just believe all that stuff about Jesus and his ministry as told via the RCC, I don't bloody understand why but it's not the threat of hell. I understand that.

True faith and devotion can't come from argumentum ad baculum, merely compliance and for compliance the threat has to be credible. The threat of hell is only credible if you uncritically accept the whole package offered in hell-believing religions.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 05:08:59 pm by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline dpareja

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2018, 05:06:24 pm »
"[Religions] can't all be right but they can all be wrong."

What if God's chosen people are a species on a planet on the far side of a galaxy twenty billion light-years away and we're just an accident of abiogenesis? We might all be damned to eternal torture simply for not being said species.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2018, 05:27:11 pm »
Come to think of it, I could just make up my own religion. I mean, last night I was visited by an angel, and he told me that I must found a new faith in order to save the souls of all of humanity. Basically, everyone has to give me $1000 per day, and gargle my scrotum for at least ten minutes per week, or upon their passing from the mortal coil, they will be sent to the Plane of Nurples for all eternity, where various imps and goblins will continuously attack and twist their nipples with clamps.

Sure, I could just be full of shit, but why take that chance? Surely it's worth going through the motions just to avoid the possibility of eternal nipple cripples, yes?

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2018, 05:47:01 pm »
Islam is unlikely because Mohammed had to memorise the verses. Christianity suffers from no such credibility problems, such as:
holding a criminal trial at passover
a roman governor being bullied by the locals into executing someone he doesn't want to
a man so famous he was going to spark a revolution needing to be identified by one of his followers

etc etc

And that's not touching the wedding at Cana, the loaves and the fishes, the resurrection of lazaraus, the resurrection, the astronomical events otherwise unreported.

Yes I know which is more likely.

1. How does the Passover effect his trial?

2. How is that far fetched? He was surrounded by an angry mob.

3. They didn’t have photography back then. Many people would have heard of him but not know what he looked like.

4. But he is the son of God so he could perform those miracles. That is more likely than a mere man memorizing all those verses.

5. The darkness was reported by sources outside the Bible. https://carm.org/there-non-biblical-evidence-day-darkness-christs-death

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2018, 05:51:14 pm »
That's a really, really bad argument. Because if you are just going with "playing the odds" take on the religion then why worship Christian God when you could go for any of the other religions? Zoroastrianism is older than Christianity so why not that? There's lots of religions with pantheons and worshiping a lot of gods at the same time would get you better chances of being right purely by luck than a monotheistic religion. In fact, why not go for one of those cooky new age religions that are cool with orgies and drugs because that gives you a better reward than some of the tougher religions as it is easier not to break the rules. Kinda like, why pay 5€ for a lottery ticket when the reward is 10'000€ when you could buy a ticket with the potential reward of 100'000€ that's on sale for the same price? It's not like your chances of winning are any different?

Heck, if the only argument you have for your religion is "it could be the right one, I dunno?" then you have a very weak argument.

But Christianity and Islam are the only religions where non believers get damned to hell. Christianity is more likely than Islam because Christianity is older, more similar to Judaism, does not merge the monotheistic God with the pagan moon diety Allah, and does not have the far fetched story of a prophet memorizizing all the Quranic verses recited to him by an angel before writing them down.

So not worshipping the Christian God has a far greater loss than the other gods.
Uh, the ancient Greeks had eternal afterlife punishments too. Likely early Greek Christian converts borrowed the concept as it's foreign to Judaism.

Here again Jacob demonstrates that his faith is incredibly weak, I have a lot of Catholics in my family and they are very defensive of their faith and believe in it strongly but it's not the threat of hell that keeps them there and they don't use it on other people-and this doesn't necessarily mean they don't believe in hell. They just believe all that stuff about Jesus and his ministry as told via the RCC, I don't bloody understand why but it's not the threat of hell. I understand that.

True faith and devotion can't come from argumentum ad baculum, merely compliance and for compliance the threat has to be credible. The threat of hell is only credible if you uncritically accept the whole package offered in hell-believing religions.

But the Greeks didn’t believe that people of other religions would go to Tartarus. And I am warning you s about Hell so that you don’t end up there not because of weak faith.