Author Topic: The Ultimate Question  (Read 506 times)

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Offline davedan

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2018, 06:02:13 pm »
Pretty sure Zoroastrianism has eternal punishment too.

The citation of Thallus is laughable. Julius Africanus reports reading Thallus but no one else ever did. Wonder why that is?

Passover - no business, including legal trials would be conducted over passover. They would have been committing sacrilege by holding the trial

Romans - You know they had conquered the province. In doing so they had been surrounded by Judaens in greater numbers, trained and armed. Pontius Pilate had the only soldiers in the province.

Yet he was famous, certainly didn't require the treachery of his comrade. Especially as he had apparently debated many of the people personally who wanted him killed, and no one could identify the man who stormed the temple? I'm sure the pigeon sellers and moneylenders could have identified him.

Yes miracles are more likely than a good (and if accepted divinely inspired) memory.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2018, 06:13:30 pm »
That's a really, really bad argument. Because if you are just going with "playing the odds" take on the religion then why worship Christian God when you could go for any of the other religions? Zoroastrianism is older than Christianity so why not that? There's lots of religions with pantheons and worshiping a lot of gods at the same time would get you better chances of being right purely by luck than a monotheistic religion. In fact, why not go for one of those cooky new age religions that are cool with orgies and drugs because that gives you a better reward than some of the tougher religions as it is easier not to break the rules. Kinda like, why pay 5€ for a lottery ticket when the reward is 10'000€ when you could buy a ticket with the potential reward of 100'000€ that's on sale for the same price? It's not like your chances of winning are any different?

Heck, if the only argument you have for your religion is "it could be the right one, I dunno?" then you have a very weak argument.

But Christianity and Islam are the only religions where non believers get damned to hell. Christianity is more likely than Islam because Christianity is older, more similar to Judaism, does not merge the monotheistic God with the pagan moon diety Allah, and does not have the far fetched story of a prophet memorizizing all the Quranic verses recited to him by an angel before writing them down.

So not worshipping the Christian God has a far greater loss than the other gods.
Uh, the ancient Greeks had eternal afterlife punishments too. Likely early Greek Christian converts borrowed the concept as it's foreign to Judaism.

Here again Jacob demonstrates that his faith is incredibly weak, I have a lot of Catholics in my family and they are very defensive of their faith and believe in it strongly but it's not the threat of hell that keeps them there and they don't use it on other people-and this doesn't necessarily mean they don't believe in hell. They just believe all that stuff about Jesus and his ministry as told via the RCC, I don't bloody understand why but it's not the threat of hell. I understand that.

True faith and devotion can't come from argumentum ad baculum, merely compliance and for compliance the threat has to be credible. The threat of hell is only credible if you uncritically accept the whole package offered in hell-believing religions.

But the Greeks didn’t believe that people of other religions would go to Tartarus. And I am warning you s about Hell so that you don’t end up there not because of weak faith.
Yeah but to accept your argument about hell being a problem I first have to believe what you do and accept that it's a problem, I don't.

Online dpareja

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2018, 06:38:28 pm »
I see that Jakey-boy hasn't said a thing about my supposition that God only cares about a species twenty billion light-years away. Clearly this means that he's having serious doubts about whether he's been wrong all this time.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline davedan

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2018, 06:46:50 pm »
We are just the unhappy by-product of the creation  of the true meaning of the universe. Isn't there a SMBC cartoon about that?

Online dpareja

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2018, 07:16:20 pm »
This one maybe?

(click to show/hide)
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline davedan

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2018, 07:32:24 pm »
No this one:

(click to show/hide)

Online dpareja

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2018, 07:36:12 pm »
Fixed that.

(click to show/hide)
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline davedan

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2018, 07:43:02 pm »
Thanks

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2018, 07:54:57 pm »
Pretty sure Zoroastrianism has eternal punishment too.

The citation of Thallus is laughable. Julius Africanus reports reading Thallus but no one else ever did. Wonder why that is?

Passover - no business, including legal trials would be conducted over passover. They would have been committing sacrilege by holding the trial

Romans - You know they had conquered the province. In doing so they had been surrounded by Judaens in greater numbers, trained and armed. Pontius Pilate had the only soldiers in the province.

Yet he was famous, certainly didn't require the treachery of his comrade. Especially as he had apparently debated many of the people personally who wanted him killed, and no one could identify the man who stormed the temple? I'm sure the pigeon sellers and moneylenders could have identified him.

Yes miracles are more likely than a good (and if accepted divinely inspired) memory.

Multiple ancient historians cited Thallus according to this article. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thallus_(historian)

And the Pharisees were corrupt so they willingly committed the sacrilege when trying Jesus.

Pilate was not prepared with the backup legions as he was surrounded so he wasn’t able to use them to put down the mob.

And the Quran was written after Muhammad so even if Muhammad memorized the verses word for word, it is absurd that those who came after him memorized those exact same words.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2018, 08:02:10 pm »
I see that Jakey-boy hasn't said a thing about my supposition that God only cares about a species twenty billion light-years away. Clearly this means that he's having serious doubts about whether he's been wrong all this time.

Because of that is true, then I have nothing to lose. But if Christianity is true, and you don’t accept it, then you have eternity to lose.

Offline davedan

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2018, 08:02:40 pm »
Cited Thallus but not the astronomical events cited only by Africanus or repeated from Africanus.

Corrupt or not they were certain to give the appearance of righteousness which a trial over Passover would have destroyed. After all aren't they the 'whited sepulchers' ? That just makes it more unlikely.

Pilate would have always had soldiers with him.

No answer to the identification of such a famous man requiring treachery, rather than an unhappy pigeon seller.

Again inifinite fish is much more likely than continuous oral history. Although you don't seem to have realised that may create some problems for your religion.

Online dpareja

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2018, 08:18:02 pm »
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager

Quote
One way to counter the wager is to replace Pascal's Judeo-Christian God with a perverse god that punishes those who believe in him without evidence, and rewards those who don't. Note that this doesn't even presuppose that the Bible and other holy texts are not divinely inspired: this god could have authored them to serve as a test of credulity. Importantly, because Pascal's Wager can only work if you improve the prior probability of any one god's existence over the others (which generally doesn't happen in any theological argument) this wager is exactly as valid as Pascal's original formulation.

In this case:

Belief in God + God exists = infinite punishment.
Belief in God + God doesn't exist = insignificant loss.
Disbelief in God + God exists = infinite reward.
Disbelief in God + God doesn't exist = insignificant gain.

Quote
This theoretical belief system presents a win/win scenario for atheists and a lose/lose scenario for those who believe in God. Since the two contrasting ideas of a specific god are logically equivalent in likelihood, atheism is shown to have the greatest potential for gain, completely negating and effectively reversing Pascal's argument. Remember, this is equally empirically provable as Pascal's Wager, and so we now have to factor in a 50:50 chance of Pascal's Wager being true or this one being true.

The wager assumes that there is a self-evident reason for rewarding blind faith. Why is the faith of a believer better than the personal courage of the disbeliever that leads an outstanding life? Why does a deity prefer blind faith over evidence based submission?

The real argument goes in the opposite direction: God exists (I assume) and I cannot see him, therefore he has to have a reason not to show himself. Therefore, there has to be something for me if I play along.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2018, 08:30:22 pm »
I see that Jakey-boy hasn't said a thing about my supposition that God only cares about a species twenty billion light-years away. Clearly this means that he's having serious doubts about whether he's been wrong all this time.

Because of that is true, then I have nothing to lose. But if Christianity is true, and you don’t accept it, then you have eternity to lose.
Here's the thing, it's not the grudging acceptance of a victim of crime handing his wallet to a mugger or the confused mental state of someone with Stockholm syndrome that gets you through the pearly gates according to that schema, it's true dedication and love. Even if it were true (it's not) I couldn't respect a being asking for my love on those terms I'd always secretly or openly hate them. No deal, you don't get love by showing me the instruments of torture!

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2018, 09:03:40 pm »
Cited Thallus but not the astronomical events cited only by Africanus or repeated from Africanus.

Corrupt or not they were certain to give the appearance of righteousness which a trial over Passover would have destroyed. After all aren't they the 'whited sepulchers' ? That just makes it more unlikely.

Pilate would have always had soldiers with him.

No answer to the identification of such a famous man requiring treachery, rather than an unhappy pigeon seller.

Again inifinite fish is much more likely than continuous oral history. Although you don't seem to have realised that may create some problems for your religion.

1. The Judeans were wicked and wanted Christ crucified right away, disregarding the laws, so the Pharisees had him tried on the Passover.

2. But at that time Pilate was surrounded, so he couldn’t have called for backup.

3. The pigeon seller probably left Jeruselem by the time that Christ was arrested.

4. While oral history is very likely, the same exact words being memorized is not.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The Ultimate Question
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2018, 09:08:55 pm »
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager

Quote
One way to counter the wager is to replace Pascal's Judeo-Christian God with a perverse god that punishes those who believe in him without evidence, and rewards those who don't. Note that this doesn't even presuppose that the Bible and other holy texts are not divinely inspired: this god could have authored them to serve as a test of credulity. Importantly, because Pascal's Wager can only work if you improve the prior probability of any one god's existence over the others (which generally doesn't happen in any theological argument) this wager is exactly as valid as Pascal's original formulation.

In this case:

Belief in God + God exists = infinite punishment.
Belief in God + God doesn't exist = insignificant loss.
Disbelief in God + God exists = infinite reward.
Disbelief in God + God doesn't exist = insignificant gain.

Quote
This theoretical belief system presents a win/win scenario for atheists and a lose/lose scenario for those who believe in God. Since the two contrasting ideas of a specific god are logically equivalent in likelihood, atheism is shown to have the greatest potential for gain, completely negating and effectively reversing Pascal's argument. Remember, this is equally empirically provable as Pascal's Wager, and so we now have to factor in a 50:50 chance of Pascal's Wager being true or this one being true.

The wager assumes that there is a self-evident reason for rewarding blind faith. Why is the faith of a believer better than the personal courage of the disbeliever that leads an outstanding life? Why does a deity prefer blind faith over evidence based submission?

The real argument goes in the opposite direction: God exists (I assume) and I cannot see him, therefore he has to have a reason not to show himself. Therefore, there has to be something for me if I play along.

1. I already explained why Christianity stands out over other religions due to rejecting it causing there to be the greatest loss. And God damning non believers is far more likely and not equally as valid as him being a perverse psycho who damns believers.