Author Topic: The most important announcement on this thread.  (Read 1958 times)

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Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #180 on: September 13, 2018, 09:00:16 am »
But those treaties were not done by the legitimate Kings of England while the treaties of the Byzantine Empire were done by the legitimate Byzantine Emperors.
"Kings' legitimacy is based on treaties.

Treaties' legitimacy is based on kings."

Maybe it's just me, but I think I'm seeing a slight problem with your reasoning.

I will clarify. A treaty is legitimate if it is done by a legitimate King. A treaty done by a legitimate King can legitimize other Kings.

The legitimate Kong’s of England never signed a treaty that handed the throne to other monarchs.


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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #181 on: September 13, 2018, 09:09:48 am »
I will clarify. A treaty is legitimate if it is done by a legitimate King. A treaty done by a legitimate King can legitimize other Kings.

The legitimate Kong’s of England never signed a treaty that handed the throne to other monarchs.
Every government the world over recognises Lizzie as the rightful national human zoo exhibit queen of England, and parliament as the rightful government. Unless you're suggesting every country in the world has an illegitimate government, then that should do it, right?

Unless of course, foreign leaders get no say in who is and who isn't the legitimate ruler of a country, in which case your previous citation of Byzantium recognising the Holy Roman Empire and before that the Papacy crowning the Saxon and Frankish conquerors of western Europe is irrelevant by your own admission.

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #182 on: September 13, 2018, 09:13:34 am »
Of course, you could just ignore the rather arbitrary notion of legitimacy and realise that whoever has the most power is in charge, regardless of long irrelevant and abandoned feudal succession laws, but why let reality get in the way of one's favourite pet issue, am I right?

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #183 on: September 13, 2018, 09:47:38 am »
I will clarify. A treaty is legitimate if it is done by a legitimate King. A treaty done by a legitimate King can legitimize other Kings.

The legitimate Kong’s of England never signed a treaty that handed the throne to other monarchs.
Every government the world over recognises Lizzie as the rightful national human zoo exhibit queen of England, and parliament as the rightful government. Unless you're suggesting every country in the world has an illegitimate government, then that should do it, right?

Unless of course, foreign leaders get no say in who is and who isn't the legitimate ruler of a country, in which case your previous citation of Byzantium recognising the Holy Roman Empire and before that the Papacy crowning the Saxon and Frankish conquerors of western Europe is irrelevant by your own admission.

But the Byzantine Emperors were not mere foreign leaders. They were the successors of the Roman Emperors and they recognized Charlemagne and the Holy Roman Emperor’s as fellow Emperors.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #184 on: September 13, 2018, 09:49:33 am »
A Frankish king given lofty titles in order to placate him, yeah-sounds legit!

Also, from your favourite source.

Quote
Collins points out "that the motivation behind the acceptance of the imperial title was a romantic and antiquarian interest in reviving the Roman empire is highly unlikely."[77] For one thing, such romance would not have appealed either to Franks or Roman Catholics at the turn of the ninth century, both of whom viewed the Classical heritage of the Roman Empire with distrust. The Franks took pride in having "fought against and thrown from their shoulders the heavy yoke of the Romans" and "from the knowledge gained in baptism, clothed in gold and precious stones the bodies of the holy martyrs whom the Romans had killed by fire, by the sword and by wild animals", as Pippin III described it in a law of 763 or 764.[78]

Furthermore, the new title—carrying with it the risk that the new emperor would "make drastic changes to the traditional styles and procedures of government" or "concentrate his attentions on Italy or on Mediterranean concerns more generally"—risked alienating the Frankish leadership.[79]

Charlemagne was crowned because Pope Leo III considered Empress Irene of the Byzantine Empire an illegitimate usurper. However Emperor Nikephoros I recognized Charlemagne’s title.
So, realpolitik and horsetrading.

"Legitimacy."

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #185 on: September 13, 2018, 09:57:55 am »
But the Byzantine Emperors were not mere foreign leaders. They were the successors of the Roman Emperors and they recognized Charlemagne and the Holy Roman Emperor’s as fellow Emperors.
Were they now? Here I thought you spent the last several pages arguing that the Papacy were the successors to Rome, and Byzantium's jurisdiction ends where Western Rome's former territory begins.

In any case, I get what you're saying. "Foreign recognition is unnecessary, unless it happens to agree with me, in which case it is a vital and unassailable source of legitimacy because reasons."

Offline Askold

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #186 on: September 13, 2018, 09:58:43 am »
Recognizing HRE as an existing empire is just that and does not mean any of the other stuff you claimed.

But I'm getting tired of this and I think I'm gonna stay away from here now. There's a limit to how much stupidity I can deal with.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
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Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #187 on: September 13, 2018, 10:26:18 am »
But the Byzantine Emperors were not mere foreign leaders. They were the successors of the Roman Emperors and they recognized Charlemagne and the Holy Roman Emperor’s as fellow Emperors.
Were they now? Here I thought you spent the last several pages arguing that the Papacy were the successors to Rome, and Byzantium's jurisdiction ends where Western Rome's former territory begins.

In any case, I get what you're saying. "Foreign recognition is unnecessary, unless it happens to agree with me, in which case it is a vital and unassailable source of legitimacy because reasons."

And I was saying that the Byzantine Emperors recognized the Pope as such because they recognized their power to crown Charlemagne and the Holy Roman Emperors. Therefore the papacy being the successors to Rome has legal weight to support it.

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #188 on: September 13, 2018, 10:52:07 am »
Interesting.
The Roman Empire got divided into two. One in the West and one in the East. That’s a fact.

Byzantine Emperors were heirs of those who were given the Eastern part not the Western parts. That’s a fact.

The Catholic Church was the Church in the Western Empire. That’s a fact.

Therefore the Catholic Church is the remnant of the Western Roman Empire.
And I was saying that the Byzantine Emperors recognized the Pope as such because they recognized their power to crown Charlemagne and the Holy Roman Emperors. Therefore the papacy being the successors to Rome has legal weight to support it.
So, let's summarise.

The Catholic Church are the True Successors to Western Rome because the the empire was split, and therefore Byzantium has zero claim to Western Rome's former territories. The reason the Catholic Church are indeed the True Successors to Western Rome is because they were recognised by Byzantium as such, and Byzantium are of course the successors to all of Rome.

Well, alright then.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #189 on: September 13, 2018, 11:18:54 am »
Interesting.
The Roman Empire got divided into two. One in the West and one in the East. That’s a fact.

Byzantine Emperors were heirs of those who were given the Eastern part not the Western parts. That’s a fact.

The Catholic Church was the Church in the Western Empire. That’s a fact.

Therefore the Catholic Church is the remnant of the Western Roman Empire.
And I was saying that the Byzantine Emperors recognized the Pope as such because they recognized their power to crown Charlemagne and the Holy Roman Emperors. Therefore the papacy being the successors to Rome has legal weight to support it.
So, let's summarise.

The Catholic Church are the True Successors to Western Rome because the the empire was split, and therefore Byzantium has zero claim to Western Rome's former territories. The reason the Catholic Church are indeed the True Successors to Western Rome is because they were recognised by Byzantium as such, and Byzantium are of course the successors to all of Rome.

Well, alright then.

I am saying that the Byzantine recognition shows that they knew that the Catholic Church already had legitimate claims as the successor of the Western part of the Roman Empire.

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #190 on: September 13, 2018, 11:22:52 am »
You did not say that.
Quote
And I was saying that the Byzantine Emperors recognized the Pope as such because they recognized their power to crown Charlemagne and the Holy Roman Emperors. Therefore the papacy being the successors to Rome has legal weight to support it.
I.e. The Pope's legitimacy and therefore the rest of the Catholic world's legitimacy at least partially stems from Byzantiums recognition.

See, gaslighting is a rather ineffective tactic when we can simply scroll up and see for ourselves what you actually said.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #191 on: September 13, 2018, 12:29:21 pm »
You did not say that.
Quote
And I was saying that the Byzantine Emperors recognized the Pope as such because they recognized their power to crown Charlemagne and the Holy Roman Emperors. Therefore the papacy being the successors to Rome has legal weight to support it.
I.e. The Pope's legitimacy and therefore the rest of the Catholic world's legitimacy at least partially stems from Byzantiums recognition.

See, gaslighting is a rather ineffective tactic when we can simply scroll up and see for ourselves what you actually said.

Ok I admit it partially stands from Byzantium recognition.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #192 on: September 13, 2018, 04:47:13 pm »
Quick, shift more goalposts. That always wins 'em over.

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Re: The most important announcement on this thread.
« Reply #193 on: September 13, 2018, 11:04:13 pm »
Hey, it's not a total loss. The Catholic fundie basically just said that the Church's power and relevancy stems from the approval of folks who aren't even Catholic. Wouldn't surprise me if he doesn't even realise what he just said.

In fact, quoting just to make sure he doesn't try any sneaky little edits.
You did not say that.
Quote
And I was saying that the Byzantine Emperors recognized the Pope as such because they recognized their power to crown Charlemagne and the Holy Roman Emperors. Therefore the papacy being the successors to Rome has legal weight to support it.
I.e. The Pope's legitimacy and therefore the rest of the Catholic world's legitimacy at least partially stems from Byzantiums recognition.

See, gaslighting is a rather ineffective tactic when we can simply scroll up and see for ourselves what you actually said.

Ok I admit it partially stands from Byzantium recognition.