Author Topic: A theological question about Heaven and Hell  (Read 1134 times)

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Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2018, 10:21:37 am »
Satan had the free will to chose whether to be good or evil. He chose evil.
Bullshit. God is omnipotent and omniscient. As with every single one of his other creations, he 100% knew every last "choice" Satan would make from the moment he was created.

Honestly, it's kind of amazing just how many Christian apologists' talking points are debunked by the simple fact that their creator of everything is all-knowing and all-powerful. You know your beliefs are a special kind of retarded when they basically disprove themselves.

Online dpareja

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2018, 10:53:12 am »
This is why if Christianity were actually real, Satan would be the good guy while God is the most unwiped anus of them all.

But Satan invented evil and is therefore responsible for all the evil that happens in the world.

HEATHEN!

Isaiah 45:7:

Quote
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2018, 11:00:48 am »
Satan had the free will to chose whether to be good or evil. He chose evil.
Bullshit. God is omnipotent and omniscient. As with every single one of his other creations, he 100% knew every last "choice" Satan would make from the moment he was created.

Honestly, it's kind of amazing just how many Christian apologists' talking points are debunked by the simple fact that their creator of everything is all-knowing and all-powerful. You know your beliefs are a special kind of retarded when they basically disprove themselves.

You are promoting the heresy of Calvinism. People have the free will to determine their fate. God knows all the possibilities, but it isn’t until people make their choices that the wave function collapses.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2018, 11:01:39 am »
This is why if Christianity were actually real, Satan would be the good guy while God is the most unwiped anus of them all.

But Satan invented evil and is therefore responsible for all the evil that happens in the world.

HEATHEN!

Isaiah 45:7:

Quote
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

According to Dhouy Rheims Bible Online

"Create evil": The evils of afflictions and punishments, but not the evil of sin.

Online dpareja

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2018, 11:03:03 am »
And since the only thing that "afflictions and punishments" are necessary for is... afflictions and punishments, your God is not omnipotent since whatever ends are otherwise served by such could be served without such.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2018, 11:05:20 am »
You are promoting the heresy of Calvinism. People have the free will to determine their fate. God knows all the possibilities, but it isn’t until people make their choices that the wave function collapses.
So, are you saying there are certain things even God can't or doesn't know? If so, it is you who is the heretic (not that I can even be a heretic in the first place, as I am most definitely not a Christian).

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2018, 12:59:37 pm »
And since the only thing that "afflictions and punishments" are necessary for is... afflictions and punishments, your God is not omnipotent since whatever ends are otherwise served by such could be served without such.

WHAT?! I’m confused. Ends served by what?

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2018, 01:02:50 pm »
You are promoting the heresy of Calvinism. People have the free will to determine their fate. God knows all the possibilities, but it isn’t until people make their choices that the wave function collapses.
So, are you saying there are certain things even God can't or doesn't know? If so, it is you who is the heretic (not that I can even be a heretic in the first place, as I am most definitely not a Christian).

He is still omniscient by knowing all the possibilities. He knows everything however everything in existence, however the future contains things that haven’t happened in existence yet. Using your absurd logic, all the non Calvinists are heretics.

Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2018, 01:14:54 pm »
He is still omniscient by knowing all the possibilities. He knows everything however everything in existence, however the future contains things that haven’t happened in existence yet. Using your absurd logic, all the non Calvinists are heretics.
That's not what omniscient means. Omniscient means knowing absolutely everything. If he doesn't know exactly what choice someone is going to make at any given time, then that is a thing he does not know. I.E, he is not actually omniscient. See why omniscience and free will contradict one another?

Online dpareja

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2018, 01:30:31 pm »
And since the only thing that "afflictions and punishments" are necessary for is... afflictions and punishments, your God is not omnipotent since whatever ends are otherwise served by such could be served without such.

WHAT?! I’m confused. Ends served by what?

God either creates "afflictions and punishments" for some purpose (whether that purpose is afflictions and punishments or something else) or they are capricious and unnecessary.

If they are created for some purpose other than themselves, then either God could use some other means and chooses not to (in which case it is evil), or cannot use some other means, in which it is not omnipotent.

If they are created for their own purpose, then God is evil.

If they are capricious and unnecessary, then God is evil.

God is evil or not omnipotent.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2018, 01:59:36 pm »
He is still omniscient by knowing all the possibilities. He knows everything however everything in existence, however the future contains things that haven’t happened in existence yet. Using your absurd logic, all the non Calvinists are heretics.
That's not what omniscient means. Omniscient means knowing absolutely everything. If he doesn't know exactly what choice someone is going to make at any given time, then that is a thing he does not know. I.E, he is not actually omniscient. See why omniscience and free will contradict one another?

It is true that omniscient means knowing everything, however the future of what choice someone makes is not knowable and doesn’t count as part of everything because it didn’t happen yet.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 02:05:58 pm by Jacob Harrison »

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2018, 02:04:00 pm »
And since the only thing that "afflictions and punishments" are necessary for is... afflictions and punishments, your God is not omnipotent since whatever ends are otherwise served by such could be served without such.

WHAT?! I’m confused. Ends served by what?

God either creates "afflictions and punishments" for some purpose (whether that purpose is afflictions and punishments or something else) or they are capricious and unnecessary.

If they are created for some purpose other than themselves, then either God could use some other means and chooses not to (in which case it is evil), or cannot use some other means, in which it is not omnipotent.

If they are created for their own purpose, then God is evil.

If they are capricious and unnecessary, then God is evil.

God is evil or not omnipotent.

I don’t see how afflictions and punishments created for their own purposes are evil. It is God punishing the wicked.

Offline Skybison

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2018, 03:16:48 pm »
But doesn't this post mean he is punishing you as well?

Or she would suffer more knowing that you can't even feel for her suffering.

Ok so while I wouldn’t want to have my mind changed to not make me upset about her suffering, it is what God does in order to make heaven a happy place. I can’t go against it because God is God.

If God did that to you against your will, doesn't that mean God is a bad person?

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2018, 03:21:31 pm »
But doesn't this post mean he is punishing you as well?

Or she would suffer more knowing that you can't even feel for her suffering.

Ok so while I wouldn’t want to have my mind changed to not make me upset about her suffering, it is what God does in order to make heaven a happy place. I can’t go against it because God is God.

If God did that to you against your will, doesn't that mean God is a bad person?

But it would be for a just reason, which is to make heaven a happy place with no suffering.

Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2018, 09:26:30 pm »
It is true that omniscient means knowing everything, however the future of what choice someone makes is not knowable and doesn’t count as part of everything because it didn’t happen yet.
No, not how it works. If he doesn't know a thing, any thing at all, he's not actually omniscient. Stop trying to bullshit your way out of it, you're not fooling anyone.