Author Topic: A theological question about Heaven and Hell  (Read 794 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3261
  • Have you got thumbs? SHOW ME YOUR FUCKING THUMBS!
Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #75 on: September 13, 2018, 04:43:22 pm »
So you're a terrified authoritarian, no worries. Hey look, a religious conservative who admits it!

Offline Eiki-mun

  • der Löwe aus Mitternacht
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1388
  • Gender: Male
  • On the fields of Breitenfeld.
    • Main Personal Blog
Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #76 on: September 13, 2018, 07:43:03 pm »
I explained how it is a proportional punishment to the infinite offense.
No, it isn't. Doesn't matter if it comes from the teacher of a class of preschoolers, the US federal government or your supposed Supreme Space Wizard of Everything, offences and punishments are entirely arbitrary no matter the arbiter.

To put it another way, eternal torture for not spending one hour per week singing songs about how great our Dear Leader is is not made any less disgusting by its source. It would be incredibly fucked up if, say, the US president did it. It's no less horrific if your imaginary sky daddy does it.

Think about it this way. A crime against a President is more serious and has more severe punishment than a crime against a regular person. So the greater the person, the greater the offense and the greater the punishment. And God is infinitely greater than anybody else, so it is an infinitely greater offense deserving of eternal punishment.

A crime against a President is not more severe than a crime against a regular person. Presidents are not special and neither is any other authority figure, including divine authority figures.

God is special because he is an infinite omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being who is our creator and the creator of the entire universe.

Even assuming that's true, that doesn't make crimes committed against them any more severe. Severity is based on the action done, not the recipient.
There is no plague more evil and vile to watch spread than the plague that is the Von Habsburg dynasty.

Offline Jacob Harrison

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1045
  • Gender: Male
  • The person who discovered England's true monarch
Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #77 on: September 13, 2018, 08:45:57 pm »
I explained how it is a proportional punishment to the infinite offense.
No, it isn't. Doesn't matter if it comes from the teacher of a class of preschoolers, the US federal government or your supposed Supreme Space Wizard of Everything, offences and punishments are entirely arbitrary no matter the arbiter.

To put it another way, eternal torture for not spending one hour per week singing songs about how great our Dear Leader is is not made any less disgusting by its source. It would be incredibly fucked up if, say, the US president did it. It's no less horrific if your imaginary sky daddy does it.

Think about it this way. A crime against a President is more serious and has more severe punishment than a crime against a regular person. So the greater the person, the greater the offense and the greater the punishment. And God is infinitely greater than anybody else, so it is an infinitely greater offense deserving of eternal punishment.

A crime against a President is not more severe than a crime against a regular person. Presidents are not special and neither is any other authority figure, including divine authority figures.

God is special because he is an infinite omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being who is our creator and the creator of the entire universe.

Even assuming that's true, that doesn't make crimes committed against them any more severe. Severity is based on the action done, not the recipient.

Well the punishment is based on the action done. It is likely that there are multiple degrees of punishment in hell based on the severity of the sin. The action of sinning against God is deserving of eternal separation from God which is the chief punishment of hell.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 08:57:25 pm by Jacob Harrison »

Offline Art Vandelay

  • Greatest Person to Ever Grace this Shitty Forum
  • Kakarot
  • ******
  • Posts: 9438
  • Gender: Male
  • Check Your Privilege
Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #78 on: September 13, 2018, 10:56:56 pm »
Think about it this way. A crime against a President is more serious and has more severe punishment than a crime against a regular person. So the greater the person, the greater the offense and the greater the punishment. And God is infinitely greater than anybody else, so it is an infinitely greater offense deserving of eternal punishment.
No, it's not. Once again, you're trying to paint something entire subjective and unnecessary as some sort of absolute truth. Once again, it's not, and you're not fooling anyone.

Offline Jacob Harrison

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1045
  • Gender: Male
  • The person who discovered England's true monarch
Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #79 on: September 14, 2018, 08:15:23 am »
Think about it this way. A crime against a President is more serious and has more severe punishment than a crime against a regular person. So the greater the person, the greater the offense and the greater the punishment. And God is infinitely greater than anybody else, so it is an infinitely greater offense deserving of eternal punishment.
No, it's not. Once again, you're trying to paint something entire subjective and unnecessary as some sort of absolute truth. Once again, it's not, and you're not fooling anyone.

I explained in my previous comment how the punishment fits the crime. Those who sin against God don’t deserve to be in the presence of God and thus they are punished with eternal separation from God, the chief punishment of hell.

Offline Art Vandelay

  • Greatest Person to Ever Grace this Shitty Forum
  • Kakarot
  • ******
  • Posts: 9438
  • Gender: Male
  • Check Your Privilege
Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #80 on: September 14, 2018, 09:13:27 am »
I explained in my previous comment how the punishment fits the crime. Those who sin against God don’t deserve to be in the presence of God and thus they are punished with eternal separation from God, the chief punishment of hell.
I'm glad you think so, but bear in mind that is an entirely subjective view, and one most others would firmly disagree with. That goes for both in terms of whether sin warrants any punishment at all, much less eternal torture and whether or not the torture by fire is somehow worse than being far, far away from the lunatic who thought it was a sensible idea to put you there in the first place.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3261
  • Have you got thumbs? SHOW ME YOUR FUCKING THUMBS!
Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #81 on: September 14, 2018, 10:14:49 am »
Think about it this way. A crime against a President is more serious and has more severe punishment than a crime against a regular person. So the greater the person, the greater the offense and the greater the punishment. And God is infinitely greater than anybody else, so it is an infinitely greater offense deserving of eternal punishment.
No, it's not. Once again, you're trying to paint something entire subjective and unnecessary as some sort of absolute truth. Once again, it's not, and you're not fooling anyone.

I explained in my previous comment how the punishment fits the crime. Those who sin against God don’t deserve to be in the presence of God and thus they are punished with eternal separation from God, the chief punishment of hell.
Any schema that considers it a crime not to kiss the arse of a given leader isn't moral, any moral system worthy of its name is consistent and applies to all. It's authoritarianism at its most hypocritical and cowardly-cosplaying morality in a self-righteous cowardly pantomime as authoritarians are want to do!


Offline Jacob Harrison

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1045
  • Gender: Male
  • The person who discovered England's true monarch
Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #82 on: September 14, 2018, 12:20:31 pm »
Think about it this way. A crime against a President is more serious and has more severe punishment than a crime against a regular person. So the greater the person, the greater the offense and the greater the punishment. And God is infinitely greater than anybody else, so it is an infinitely greater offense deserving of eternal punishment.
No, it's not. Once again, you're trying to paint something entire subjective and unnecessary as some sort of absolute truth. Once again, it's not, and you're not fooling anyone.

I explained in my previous comment how the punishment fits the crime. Those who sin against God don’t deserve to be in the presence of God and thus they are punished with eternal separation from God, the chief punishment of hell.
Any schema that considers it a crime not to kiss the arse of a given leader isn't moral, any moral system worthy of its name is consistent and applies to all. It's authoritarianism at its most hypocritical and cowardly-cosplaying morality in a self-righteous cowardly pantomime as authoritarians are want to do!

But God is our creator so we owe him our worship and obedience.

Offline Skybison

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 953
Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #83 on: September 14, 2018, 01:30:47 pm »
^Why?

Personally I would say that morality isn't about punishing bad people, it's about fixing problems and getting people to treat each other better.  Punishment is part of that, but hurting people is not the goal, it is a means to an end.  Eternal hell, or any gratuitous punishment that goes beyond what is needed to stop people from doing bad things is immoral.

If your asking "What amount of torture does this guy deserve?" you are asking the wrong question.  The right question is "What will make the world a better place?"  So please tell me, how does torturing people forever make the world a better place?

Offline Jacob Harrison

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1045
  • Gender: Male
  • The person who discovered England's true monarch
Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #84 on: September 14, 2018, 01:40:39 pm »
^Why?

Personally I would say that morality isn't about punishing bad people, it's about fixing problems and getting people to treat each other better.  Punishment is part of that, but hurting people is not the goal, it is a means to an end.  Eternal hell, or any gratuitous punishment that goes beyond what is needed to stop people from doing bad things is immoral.

If your asking "What amount of torture does this guy deserve?" you are asking the wrong question.  The right question is "What will make the world a better place?"  So please tell me, how does torturing people forever make the world a better place?

The justice system is about stopping people from doing bad deeds and punishing those who do. There are those who deserve certain punishments, such as vandals getting fines, thieves getting prison, and murderers getting the death penalty. Hell makes the world a better place because people who fear hell will be restrained from committing bad deeds. It helps when people think they won't get caught by the authorities, because they will know that God is watching them.

Offline Jacob Harrison

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1045
  • Gender: Male
  • The person who discovered England's true monarch
Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #85 on: September 14, 2018, 01:52:33 pm »
I explained in my previous comment how the punishment fits the crime. Those who sin against God don’t deserve to be in the presence of God and thus they are punished with eternal separation from God, the chief punishment of hell.
I'm glad you think so, but bear in mind that is an entirely subjective view, and one most others would firmly disagree with. That goes for both in terms of whether sin warrants any punishment at all, much less eternal torture and whether or not the torture by fire is somehow worse than being far, far away from the lunatic who thought it was a sensible idea to put you there in the first place.

Well sin is a crime against God and in most societies, crime warrants punishment proportional to the crime committed, and eternal separation from God is proportional to the crime of sinning against God.

Offline dpareja

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 4655
Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #86 on: September 14, 2018, 03:35:10 pm »
Jacob, you do realize that by not kissing Hank's ass, you're risking being kicked in the nuts, right?
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Svata

  • Doesn't even fucking know anymore
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1538
  • Gender: Male
  • No, seriously, fuck astrology.
Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #87 on: September 14, 2018, 05:35:42 pm »
A place run by a mad dictator would be hell all over, ya don't say?

What I mean is that, if someone in heaven was upset about a loved one being in hell, then they themselves would be experiencing hell because of their suffering. That is why in those situations, God has to make them happy so that heaven can be heaven.

Or he could just not send people to hell.

But unrepentant sinners deserve to go to hell because of their sins.
Infinite punishment for finite "sins" is just psychotic. Good thing it's all make-believe.

But it is a sin against an infinite being so it is deserving of infinite punishment.


Wrong. Nothing is deserving of a literal eternity of torture.

I explained in my previous comment on how the greater the person you commit a crime against, the more severe it is and the more severe punishment you get. Sinning against God is therefore the most severe crime you can commit and therefore deserves eternal punishment.

We are all sinners deserving of such a fate, but God is so merciful that he sent his son to die on the cross on our behalf, so that our sins can be forgiven. You just need to accept his sacrifice, and do good works and penance for your sins and you can avoid eternal punishment and have eternal reward.


Hey guess what. Fuck your god. If they torture people for not kissing enough of their eternal ass, they are what is known as "evil" and therefore, not deserving of worship in the first place, even if they exist.
"Politician" is the occupational equivalent of "Florida".

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3261
  • Have you got thumbs? SHOW ME YOUR FUCKING THUMBS!
Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #88 on: September 14, 2018, 08:23:14 pm »
Think about it this way. A crime against a President is more serious and has more severe punishment than a crime against a regular person. So the greater the person, the greater the offense and the greater the punishment. And God is infinitely greater than anybody else, so it is an infinitely greater offense deserving of eternal punishment.
No, it's not. Once again, you're trying to paint something entire subjective and unnecessary as some sort of absolute truth. Once again, it's not, and you're not fooling anyone.

I explained in my previous comment how the punishment fits the crime. Those who sin against God don’t deserve to be in the presence of God and thus they are punished with eternal separation from God, the chief punishment of hell.
Any schema that considers it a crime not to kiss the arse of a given leader isn't moral, any moral system worthy of its name is consistent and applies to all. It's authoritarianism at its most hypocritical and cowardly-cosplaying morality in a self-righteous cowardly pantomime as authoritarians are want to do!

But God is our creator so we owe him our worship and obedience.
No, you might owe your parents some reapect and obedience depending on how they treat you but even there most people have limits and parents don't have a blank slate to demand it no matter how they treat their offspring.

Respect is earned and lost through ongoing interactions, if someone responsible for my existence felt justified in wanting to torture me for not sucking up to them they'd lose mine right quick.

Maybe not you, but your levels of self respect are subterranean. I still remember the 'Oink' video!

Offline Jacob Harrison

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1045
  • Gender: Male
  • The person who discovered England's true monarch
Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #89 on: September 14, 2018, 08:53:25 pm »
Think about it this way. A crime against a President is more serious and has more severe punishment than a crime against a regular person. So the greater the person, the greater the offense and the greater the punishment. And God is infinitely greater than anybody else, so it is an infinitely greater offense deserving of eternal punishment.
No, it's not. Once again, you're trying to paint something entire subjective and unnecessary as some sort of absolute truth. Once again, it's not, and you're not fooling anyone.

I explained in my previous comment how the punishment fits the crime. Those who sin against God don’t deserve to be in the presence of God and thus they are punished with eternal separation from God, the chief punishment of hell.
Any schema that considers it a crime not to kiss the arse of a given leader isn't moral, any moral system worthy of its name is consistent and applies to all. It's authoritarianism at its most hypocritical and cowardly-cosplaying morality in a self-righteous cowardly pantomime as authoritarians are want to do!

But God is our creator so we owe him our worship and obedience.
No, you might owe your parents some reapect and obedience depending on how they treat you but even there most people have limits and parents don't have a blank slate to demand it no matter how they treat their offspring.

Respect is earned and lost through ongoing interactions, if someone responsible for my existence felt justified in wanting to torture me for not sucking up to them they'd lose mine right quick.

Maybe not you, but your levels of self respect are subterranean. I still remember the 'Oink' video!

Owing your parents respect and obedience is exactly why you owe God worship and obedience. Your parents are responsible for your existence, and they took care of you. God created humans and watches over them as a good Shepard, and helps those who pray to him. Furthermore he sent his son to die for us.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 09:21:04 pm by Jacob Harrison »