Author Topic: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity  (Read 474 times)

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Offline dpareja

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Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2018, 03:44:19 am »
Okay if your going to post a video that long, could you at least give the time for when he says stuff that is relevant to the discussion?  Because I'm half way through he's barely said anything about Jesus's historicity yet.

It's been a while since I've watched it, sorry.
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Offline Skybison

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Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2018, 04:35:31 am »
Okay so the main points he makes in that video are:
1) no evidence for Jesus from third party accounts
2) Earliest stuff (ie letters of paul) doesn't talk about Jesus as a flesh and blood person.
3) At the time there was a trend of claiming that Roman gods were actually moral kings in the past, and that Jesus was likely in a similar category.

Now it's hard for me to fully respond since he doesn't give any evidence in that interview, but says he does have it in a book I haven't read, but from what I know of the topic:

1) This is what I'm talking about on misrepresenting how history is studied.  There is almost nothing in ancient history that is based on this sort of evidence.  Very little back then was written down compared to today, and very little of what was written down has survived.  The lack of evidence for Jesus is not remotely unusual or surprising.  What historians do is read through these sorts of biased propaganda accounts from long after the fact and try to work out what is most probable.

2) The idea that Paul didn't think Jesus was a real person is rejected by basically everyone else works in the field.  Paul clearly says he's met Jesus's brother and that the Roman's killed him, and the religious views Paul expresses make no sense with the idea that he didn't think Jesus was a recent figure.  Paul believed the world was about to end and that the resurrection of Jesus proved this.

3) There is no evidence whatsoever that any Christians ever didn't think Jesus was a real person.  We know a lot of what early Christians believed, since they wrote lots of stuff attacking each other as heretics, but nowhere is there any mention of Christians who didn't think Jesus really lived.

He also talks about how it's possible that Jesus might be a fictional character who later came to be thought of as real, and this is something that has always annoyed me when talking to mythers.  Possible and probable are not the same thing.  I agree it is possible for Jesus to have been a mythical person, but little to no reason to regard that as more probable then him having existed.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2018, 09:12:33 am »
@Tol I'd recommend Did Jesus Exist by Bart Ehrman, he does a good job of debunking the Jesus Myth theory and explaining why historian of the period overwhelmingly believe Jesus was a real figure.

I'm going to be honest Jacob is actually right about this one.  I'm not an expert but I know enough about the history involved to say Jesus Myth theory is bunk.  It can't be absolutely refuted but it largely rests on misrepresentations of how ancient history is actually studied and long discredited ideas like the pagan dying reviving god. 

And dpareja, that's not accurate about historians.  First they do have several lines of evidence pointing towards Jesus being a historical figure (Paul personally knowing his brother, the criterion of embarrassment, the general trajectory of how Christianity evolved) and ignores the fact that most of these historians don't believe Christianity to be literal truth.

The dominant view today is that Jesus was a Jewish preacher of the Dualist/apocalyptic movement, promoting the idea that the world was about to end and that poor Jews, not the rich and powerful, were the truly righteous  and should resist the Romans and seek spiritual purity over material wealth or their own families.  He never believed he was a god, that idea evolved much later.

And that's my challenge for you Jacob.  You say why should trust the judgement of historians when it comes to Jesus being a real person, but what about everything else about him?  Again those same historians agree he didn't believe himself to be divine, thought the world was going to end thousands of years ago and overall was a very different person then the guy you worship.  If you trust Historians on Jesus being real, why not on that?

According to Wikipedia “There is widespread disagreement among scholars on the details of the life of Jesus mentioned in the gospel narratives, and on the meaning of his teachings,[15] and the only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.”

So the secular historians never said specifically that Jesus didn’t believe himself to be divine.

Online Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2018, 10:23:33 am »
Frankly I don't know why Jacob is ranting at me about the historicity of Jesus, I'm yet to be convinced that the Jesus myth hypothesis is the most convincing explanation my point is his defence against it is terrible. He cites Wikipedia as saying that most experts agree and that's...it.

It's not that I'm a one eyed proponent of the Jesus myth hypothesis it's just that:

A: "Most experts agree" is not an argument worthy of the name. Why is this the case, what counter claims do these experts put forward, who are they, what are their motives and how does it affect their research-yes the same should be examined for Jesus myth hypothesis proponents. Skybison does the job properly and Jacob can't even work out what he did after he quotes him.

B: Whether or not Jesus existed has no bearing on whether Christianity, that is all tenants and claims of that religion is true, no more than the historicity of Mohammad or Krishna makes the religions founded in their name true.

C: The speed in which a religion/cult spreads is not, by itself an indication of either it's truth value or it's virtue. It's simply an observation that it hits the right notes with its target market.

Offline Skybison

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Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2018, 02:15:28 am »
To go back to the original topic, Jacob, what would the the kinds of arguments that you would find convincing arguments against Christianity.

Because I can think of things that I would consider proof or at least strong evidence for Christianity that would cause me to convert if they were offered ie scientific studies finding that Catholic prayers healed illnesses but that prayers for other religions didn't.

So what would be the kind of argument that would get to to question Christianity?  Tell me and I'll see what I can find.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2018, 08:26:06 am »
To go back to the original topic, Jacob, what would the the kinds of arguments that you would find convincing arguments against Christianity.

Because I can think of things that I would consider proof or at least strong evidence for Christianity that would cause me to convert if they were offered ie scientific studies finding that Catholic prayers healed illnesses but that prayers for other religions didn't.

So what would be the kind of argument that would get to to question Christianity?  Tell me and I'll see what I can find.

Prove that any of the Old Testament prophecies mentioned in the New Testament could not possibly be referring to Jesus. That would disprove the New Testament. Or show me historical evidence that any of the events mentioned in the Bible such as events in the Gospels did not happen.

Online Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: My new plan to convert you guys to Christianity
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2018, 10:04:21 am »
To go back to the original topic, Jacob, what would the the kinds of arguments that you would find convincing arguments against Christianity.

Because I can think of things that I would consider proof or at least strong evidence for Christianity that would cause me to convert if they were offered ie scientific studies finding that Catholic prayers healed illnesses but that prayers for other religions didn't.

So what would be the kind of argument that would get to to question Christianity?  Tell me and I'll see what I can find.

Prove that any of the Old Testament prophecies mentioned in the New Testament could not possibly be referring to JesusLALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOUUU. That would disprove the New Testament. Or show me historical evidence that any of the events mentioned in the Bible such as events in the Gospels did not happen prove a negative, coz that's a reasonable standard.