Worst of Social Justice

[TheL]

Who were the supposed "POC" the white Europeans erased in Europe? The Neanderthals (who often had red or blonde hair, btw)?

I know this may come to you as a shock, but Europe is really fucking close to Asia and Africa--close enough that, since prehistoric times, people have traveled between those areas.  Sometimes, this meant PoC settling in Europe.  Just like people move around and travel nowadays, only with no passports or baggage checks.

Plus, Romani and Jewish culture were often denigrated and/or ignored throughout European history, and discrimination against both ethnic groups is still commonplace in Europe today.  Their culture is ignored as part of "European culture," even though technically it has just as much claim.

[Eiki-mun]

The vast majority of those deaths were caused by disease brought upon the native Americans from contact with the white man, and later actively encouraged by contact with the white man... but genocide is about more than just killing people. Genocide is also about killing a culture, and no one demonstrated more capability at actively destroying a culture than we did with the native Americans.

Sorry, Ultie, but you're wrong here. The genocide of native North America was indeed the fault of Americans, and it was one of the worst genocides in all of history.

[Ultimate Paragon]

The vast majority of those deaths were caused by disease brought upon the native Americans from contact with the white man, and later actively encouraged by contact with the white man... but genocide is about more than just killing people. Genocide is also about killing a culture, and no one demonstrated more capability at actively destroying a culture than we did with the native Americans.

Sorry, Ultie, but you're wrong here. The genocide of native North America was indeed the fault of Americans, and it was one of the worst genocides in all of history.

That's a good point, but the picture doesn't bring it up.  It only talks about slaughter.

[ironbite]

Well you're only using a very narrow definition of the word slaughter.  If you expand it just a bit, you'll find the picture is accurate.

Ironbite-slaughter doesn't have to be physical, it can be emotional, mental, metaphysical, or cultural.

[Dakota Bob]

Well you're only using a very narrow definition of the word slaughter.  If you expand it just a bit, you'll find the picture is accurate.

Ironbite-slaughter doesn't have to be physical, it can be emotional, mental, metaphysical, or cultural.

Metaphysical Slaughter is my new band name, thanks.

[Skybison]

The hundred million figure is probably an exaggeration but even a drastically reduced number would still have a strong claim to biggest genocide in history.  Ie RJ Rummel (who isn't all that reliable but I'll work with what I got) estimate between 2-15 million deaths of native americans directly from mass murder.  And not all the deaths by disease shouldn't be excluded from genocide, Anne Frank died of Typhus but we count her as one of hitler's victims.

That being said I do have issue with this meme, the words "on American Soil."  That pretty clearly implies the United States is behind it, but the 100 million figure is for the entire American double continent, from Ellesmere Island to Tierra del Fuego.  And every country in the americas is just as guilty as the US.  And the most heavily populated regions would have been outside what became the US, mostly in Mexico, Central and South America.  As a Canadian I find it offensive how our evil gets appropriated as American.

[Ultimate Paragon]

The hundred million figure is probably an exaggeration but even a drastically reduced number would still have a strong claim to biggest genocide in history.  Ie RJ Rummel (who isn't all that reliable but I'll work with what I got) estimate between 2-15 million deaths of native americans directly from mass murder.  And not all the deaths by disease shouldn't be excluded from genocide, Anne Frank died of Typhus but we count her as one of hitler's victims.

That being said I do have issue with this meme, the words "on American Soil."  That pretty clearly implies the United States is behind it, but the 100 million figure is for the entire American double continent, from Ellesmere Island to Tierra del Fuego.  And every country in the americas is just as guilty as the US.  And the most heavily populated regions would have been outside what became the US, mostly in Mexico, Central and South America.  As a Canadian I find it offensive how our evil gets appropriated as American.

Not to mention the horrible things done by the Spanish and the British.

And another flaw is that it ignores the Native American role.  Cortés could never have conquered the Aztecs without help from the Tlaxcalans, and the Incas would've roflstomped Pizarro if so many of their subject peoples hadn't allied with him.  In North America, you had the Beaver Wars, where the Iroquois engaged in several brutal campaigns of conquest in order to secure a trade monopoly.  Many, many Amerindians were killed by other Amerindians since 1492.

While we're talking about it, a lot of Christians, including clergy, fought on behalf of the Natives.  Bartolomé de las Casas is just the most famous example.

[TheL]

Or the fact that Canada's still trying to starve out the First Nations by raising food prices ludicrously high on reservations.  This is why so many First Nations folk still hunt seals.  Not for some ritual or cultural nostalgia; because they CAN'T AFFORD enough food at the grocery store.

[Ultimate Paragon]

Or the fact that Canada's still trying to starve out the First Nations by raising food prices ludicrously high on reservations.  This is why so many First Nations folk still hunt seals.  Not for some ritual or cultural nostalgia; because they CAN'T AFFORD enough food at the grocery store.

Seriously?  That's appalling!

[mellenORL]

Who were the supposed "POC" the white Europeans erased in Europe? The Neanderthals (who often had red or blonde hair, btw)?

I know this may come to you as a shock, but Europe is really fucking close to Asia and Africa--close enough that, since prehistoric times, people have traveled between those areas.  Sometimes, this meant PoC settling in Europe.  Just like people move around and travel nowadays, only with no passports or baggage checks.

Plus, Romani and Jewish culture were often denigrated and/or ignored throughout European history, and discrimination against both ethnic groups is still commonplace in Europe today.  Their culture is ignored as part of "European culture," even though technically it has just as much claim.

It's like they think white people just randomly fell out of wormhole.  The actual argument I've seen for this is basically, "white people can't even claim their own native European culture as 'white culture' because poc existed in those places and were erased from history by white people, so white people literally have no culture of their own".

My dad majored in anthropology, although he became a businessman to feed the family. I liked to read through his textbooks when I was growing up and I accompanied him on two trips to SA on U of M sponsored digs. Genetic drift and ancient migrations, etc. are familiar concepts to me. What I was snarking about was the idea Iosa quoted from memory that implies some people claim Europeans somehow wiped out indigenous POC populations in Europe. If by wiped out, they mean that they bred with and overwhelmed the C of those individual migrant POCs, and small enclaves of POCs, then that is still a bit of a stretch. As far as cultural appropriation goes in regards Europeans (and any other group of humanity), look at a chart of how pottery styles, ornaments, fertility fetishes and arrow head styles drifted across thousands of miles, even jumping continents, since the later days of Homo Erectus...

[Canadian Mojo]

Or the fact that Canada's still trying to starve out the First Nations by raising food prices ludicrously high on reservations.  This is why so many First Nations folk still hunt seals.  Not for some ritual or cultural nostalgia; because they CAN'T AFFORD enough food at the grocery store.

Seriously?  That's appalling!

Their land claims get in the way of progress and they are a drain on society.

- sorry, I was channeling my inner Harper.

[I am lizard]

Well you're only using a very narrow definition of the word slaughter.  If you expand it just a bit, you'll find the picture is accurate.

Ironbite-slaughter doesn't have to be physical, it can be emotional, mental, metaphysical, or cultural.

The ICC defines genocide as:

any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

All criteria having been met for native Americans.

[Ultimate Paragon]

I never tried to deny or downplay the atrocities perpetrated against Native Americans.  Honestly, I find it difficult to call it anything less than genocide.

But back on topic:



The picture on the right is of a responsible officer assisting an old man, who is a part of the KKK, in recovering from heat stroke.  That has so much more honor and dignity to it than the one on the left.  Don't get me wrong, the KKK is fucking stupid and abominable.  But don't call such an amazing deed by an officer "bullshit" when it does far more to challenge racism than violence ever did.  And I'd say a Klansman owing his life to a black man would be a fate worse than death for him. 

The picture on the left, however, only kindles the fire of hatred among racists.  You're literally supporting giving the bad guys ammo here.  Does that person deserve it?  Assuming they're in the KKK like the one on the right, absolutely.  However, if you choose to fight with kindness instead, they cannot touch you, and the media will be much more inclined to talk highly of you.

[I am lizard]

Yeah, literally killing or crippling someone for their ideas is wrong on any level.

[Askold]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/08/09/1410195/-Seattle-BLM-Protest-Was-Not-BLM-Sorta

Some folks decided that the best way to help the cause of "Black lives matter" is to go interrupt Bernie Sanders and shout scream incoherently and demand a chance to talk. When told that they could have their turn after Sanders they refused until they were eventually allowed to talk before Sanders got his turn (apparently the organizers were afraid of things getting even worse.)

Anyway, BLM is already suffering from this but it turned out that the people responsible for this particular incident were in fact a separate group that decided to hijack the more famous name since their own "Outside Agitators 206" name wasn't famous enough.

Bernie and the organizers handled things way more politely than they would have needed to and these "agitators" are just tumblr SJWs who got off their computer and try to use the same tactics outdoors.