FSTDT Forums
Community => Society and History => Topic started by: Askold on June 09, 2016, 04:29:01 am
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http://newcenturytimes.com/2016/06/06/israeli-who-burned-palestinian-baby-to-death-released-from-custody-without-charge-video/
http://english.pnn.ps/2016/06/01/israeli-muderer-of-dawabsheh-family-released/
TL;DR Israeli man set a house on fire killing three people (18-month old baby and parents) and severely injuring one. After being held in custody for several months he has now been released and the only punishment he got was a ban on entering Palestinian zones or contacting certain people.
An Israeli who burned a Palestinian family to death while they were sleeping in their home was released from custody ten months after he was detained for the incident by Israeli authorities. Meir Ettinger, 20, led the arson attack on the Dawabsheh home in the village of Duma located in illegally occupied Palestine in July, 2015. The attack burned 18-month-old Ali Dawabsha to death instantly. His parents both later died of their burns at a hospital. Their first child, four-year-old Ahmad, was burned over 60% of his body and he spent months in the hospital but he survived the attack and continues to recover.
However, Haaretz reported that Ettinger remains under various restrictions, including a ban from the West Bank and East Jerusalem and a curfew. He is also barred from making contact with 93 people.
Following his detention, a judge noted that Ettinger encouraged acts of violence that harmed Israel’s security, and that he organized a violent revolt aimed at toppling the state.
...What the hell is wrong with these people? Three murders and all he gets is a slap on the wrist? AND it seems like he is punished only for making people not like Israel.
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Remember, if you commit a crime, but you're one of the people we like (or your victim was one of the people we hate, or especially both), you didn't really commit a crime.
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And I thought the Stanford Rapist who got six months was the most rage inducing thing Id see today. I was wrong.
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Its an Isreali that killed a Palestinian. What, did you think they'd actually get charged with something? My sweet summer child, Israel and her people can do no wrong against the
untermenschen subhumans Palestinians.
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Its an Isreali that killed a Palestinian. What, did you think they'd actually get charged with something? My sweet summer child, Israel and her people can do no wrong against the untermenschen subhumans Palestinians.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/057b152f06f44961b63698c6971152c8/israel-demolishes-home-palestinian-who-killed-2-israelis (http://bigstory.ap.org/article/057b152f06f44961b63698c6971152c8/israel-demolishes-home-palestinian-who-killed-2-israelis)
Granted, it would be nice to see this applied more consistently, but Israelis do get punished for the murders of Palestinians.
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ITT, Ultie proves he does not understand exaggeration for effect. Though I find it amusing that even in his article, the prosecutor seems more angry about the damage done to Israel than to the Palestinian teenager's family.
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Its an Isreali that killed a Palestinian. What, did you think they'd actually get charged with something? My sweet summer child, Israel and her people can do no wrong against the untermenschen subhumans Palestinians.
This arsonist learned the act of malignity from the very best at it.
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It does kind of make sense. International reputation is the only reason Israel isn't simply having the Palestinians lined up and shot. Naturally, the same reasoning in applied at both the governmental and individual levels.
Heh, it's kind of both a single standard and a double standard at the same time.
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Allow me to present Exhibit B: Asher Weisgan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5386144.stm).
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I want to point out this:
(http://newcenturytimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/settlers-300x169.jpg)
From the first article linked in the OP. Now, it's small, but we can still see that over 90% of complaints by Palestinians against Israelis don't even result in an indictment, much less a conviction. In fact, of those cases that do result in an indictment, almost a fourth of those are listed as "found guilty but not convicted", which is pretty damning on its own. The key line is "Only 2.5% of complaints by Palestinians result in an identification, indictment, and conviction".
But this statistic is useless without a comparison. So how about we compare it to the general conviction rate of the 75 largest countries in the world, in 2006?
Thankfully, we have a convenient study there that gives us that number. (http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=23)
It's 2/3. 66% of felony defendants are convicted. Even if we only count cases with an indictment, Israel isn't even managing half that. And to me, that's pretty damning.
And it's not hard to damn Israel.
To Ultimate Paragon, I have three words: statistics over anecdotes.
EDIT: Fixed broken link.
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I want to point out this:
(http://newcenturytimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/settlers-300x169.jpg)
From the first article linked in the OP. Now, it's small, but we can still see that over 90% of complaints by Palestinians against Israelis don't even result in an indictment, much less a conviction. In fact, of those cases that do result in an indictment, almost a fourth of those are listed as "found guilty but not convicted", which is pretty damning on its own. The key line is "Only 2.5% of complaints by Palestinians result in an identification, indictment, and conviction".
But this statistic is useless without a comparison. So how about we compare it to the general conviction rate of the 75 largest countries in the world, in 2006?
Thankfully, we have a convenient study there that gives us that number. (http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=23)
It's 2/3. 66% of felony defendants are convicted. Even if we only count cases with an indictment, Israel isn't even managing half that. And to me, that's pretty damning.
And it's not hard to damn Israel.
To Ultimate Paragon, I have three words: statistics over anecdotes.
EDIT: Fixed broken link.
Yeah, it looks damning, but let's not jump to conclusions. If you don't mind, I'd like to do some research, see if there are other possible explanations.
Still, I have to admit, you present a good case.
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Is this going to be like the Canadian law thread?
Oh, what am I saying? Of course it's going to be like that.
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Is this going to be like the Canadian law thread?
Oh, what am I saying? Of course it's going to be like that.
Israel is one of UP's bugbears, along with countries that have superior systems of government and That Topic We Shall Not Mention.
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I want to point out this:
(http://newcenturytimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/settlers-300x169.jpg)
From the first article linked in the OP. Now, it's small, but we can still see that over 90% of complaints by Palestinians against Israelis don't even result in an indictment, much less a conviction. In fact, of those cases that do result in an indictment, almost a fourth of those are listed as "found guilty but not convicted", which is pretty damning on its own. The key line is "Only 2.5% of complaints by Palestinians result in an identification, indictment, and conviction".
But this statistic is useless without a comparison. So how about we compare it to the general conviction rate of the 75 largest countries in the world, in 2006?
Thankfully, we have a convenient study there that gives us that number. (http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=23)
It's 2/3. 66% of felony defendants are convicted. Even if we only count cases with an indictment, Israel isn't even managing half that. And to me, that's pretty damning.
And it's not hard to damn Israel.
To Ultimate Paragon, I have three words: statistics over anecdotes.
EDIT: Fixed broken link.
Yeah, it looks damning, but let's not jump to conclusions. If you don't mind, I'd like to do some research, see if there are other possible explanations.
Still, I have to admit, you present a good case.
Reaching a conclusion based on statistical evidence does not require us to wait on you to dig up a barely related link to present.to us in a fortnight first.
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This case is much more understandable than it seems at first. (http://www.timesofisrael.com/alleged-extremist-meir-ettinger-to-be-freed-from-prison/)
The asshole in question is an extremist leader who incites violence but there is no evidence he was directly involved in the attack or even knew about it beforehand. Yes, he encourages such actions and should be kept accountable for it but he is not an actual arsonist himself. He was detained for almost a year without charges so it seems there actually wasn't enough evidence against him. It seems that the international community put enough pressure for Israel to take this investigation seriously. There are even claims about torture of the suspects (http://www.timesofisrael.com/top-justice-official-said-to-visit-duma-suspects-amid-torture-claims/) after UN admonished Israel for the slow pace of the investigation.
Whether the Israeli justice systems gives a fair deal to Palestinians - it seems it doesn't - is a separate issue. The facts of this particular case are more complicated.
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I want to point out this:
(http://newcenturytimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/settlers-300x169.jpg)
From the first article linked in the OP. Now, it's small, but we can still see that over 90% of complaints by Palestinians against Israelis don't even result in an indictment, much less a conviction. In fact, of those cases that do result in an indictment, almost a fourth of those are listed as "found guilty but not convicted", which is pretty damning on its own. The key line is "Only 2.5% of complaints by Palestinians result in an identification, indictment, and conviction".
But this statistic is useless without a comparison. So how about we compare it to the general conviction rate of the 75 largest countries in the world, in 2006?
Thankfully, we have a convenient study there that gives us that number. (http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=23)
It's 2/3. 66% of felony defendants are convicted. Even if we only count cases with an indictment, Israel isn't even managing half that. And to me, that's pretty damning.
And it's not hard to damn Israel.
To Ultimate Paragon, I have three words: statistics over anecdotes.
EDIT: Fixed broken link.
Yeah, it looks damning, but let's not jump to conclusions. If you don't mind, I'd like to do some research, see if there are other possible explanations.
Still, I have to admit, you present a good case.
I've taken the liberty of doing some research for you.
option 1: the Palestinians are crying wolf over every little hangnail
option 2: the Israelis view the Palestinians as little more than rats and treat them accordingly
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Still, doubt they'd be as lenient with a Palestinian terrorist leader. The overall message still seems to be "eh, he's only a threat to Arabs".
Gee, I wonder which one of those options UP will pick. Deep mystery is deep.
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option 3: Ignore the problem.
option 4: Concede that there "may be" something wrong here but in all later instances act as if Israel had never done anything wrong and that this thread had not happened.
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I want to point out this:
(http://newcenturytimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/settlers-300x169.jpg)
From the first article linked in the OP. Now, it's small, but we can still see that over 90% of complaints by Palestinians against Israelis don't even result in an indictment, much less a conviction. In fact, of those cases that do result in an indictment, almost a fourth of those are listed as "found guilty but not convicted", which is pretty damning on its own. The key line is "Only 2.5% of complaints by Palestinians result in an identification, indictment, and conviction".
But this statistic is useless without a comparison. So how about we compare it to the general conviction rate of the 75 largest countries in the world, in 2006?
Thankfully, we have a convenient study there that gives us that number. (http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=23)
It's 2/3. 66% of felony defendants are convicted. Even if we only count cases with an indictment, Israel isn't even managing half that. And to me, that's pretty damning.
And it's not hard to damn Israel.
To Ultimate Paragon, I have three words: statistics over anecdotes.
EDIT: Fixed broken link.
Yeah, it looks damning, but let's not jump to conclusions. If you don't mind, I'd like to do some research, see if there are other possible explanations.
Still, I have to admit, you present a good case.
I've taken the liberty of doing some research for you.
option 1: the Palestinians are crying wolf over every little hangnail
option 2: the Israelis view the Palestinians as little more than rats and treat them accordingly
That's a false dichotomy.
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That's nice dear, now do you have anything to say about the numbers presented with linked evidence supporting your views or do you still need time to "research".
Shall we say two weeks then?
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UP, those were humorous exaggerations.
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That's a false dichotomy.
You know you're wrong about that and just to be a nice guy I'll prove it.
Ignoring any observations of what those numbers represent we have a simple mathematical problem: Israel produces massively lower numbers as a percentage than other modern first world nation states. For that to happen mathematically you need to either actually produce less (as in Israel is pursuing these cases less) or you need to inflate the numbers to lower the ratio (as in the Palestinians are making lots of false claims).
Those are the choices. Honest.
If you can't put up with that reality there is one more apolitical thing you could try. Prove the numbers wrong. This could be a corrupt data set and those to conditions are simply not true. Of course, that would require real proof of other numbers being in existence and not just a simple ad hom smear on the source of the numbers we're currently using. The other way the numbers could be wrong is if we are comparing apples to oranges. Since this argument is predicated on legal systems being similar enough to compare, if you can prove that's not the case the comparison falls apart. Doing that is very simple; you need to demonstrate that the legal system in Israel is internally consistent across all demographics. If that's just their conviction rate, that's just their conviction rate so the options I presented simply don't apply.
Hopes this helps with your research.