Another mass shooting.

[Lt. Fred]

Do you think if the people who wrote the constitution knew then what we know today would they have still inserted the 2nd amendment knowing the misery it was going to cause?

Is it that much misery? How many people die of preventable, firearm-related causes? Compared to, say, bath-tub related accidents (the usual measure)? Because other 'important' major causes of death (ie terrorism) do not kill many western people.

Well if the 2nd amendment didn't exist presumably consideably fewer people would own guns than do today so that would lead to a corresponding reduction in firearm related deaths. As for "bathtub" related accidents. Unless you know of another way for people to get clean then I think we'll just have to put up with them for the sake of public hygiene.

The question I asked was how many people are killed by firearm related causes. I have a feeling that it might be comparable to other serious problems like bath-tub related accidents or terrorism.

[MadCatTLX]

VirtualStranger has it right.  The problem isn't that we lack gun control.  The problem is our culture.  Keep guns out of the general populace, and we'd probably end up making our own, or resorting to other violent measures.

Truthfully do you have the knowledge, materials, or equipment to make your own gun?

Yes, yes I do. That's not mine, I think it was made by a prisoner or something, but it illustrates the point. If the person can't shoot the person they want to kill they'll stab them. If they can't stab them they'll beat them person they want to kill with a blunt object. If they can't beat the person with a blunt object they'll use their hands and punch or bash the persons head against something hard. If they don't have hands they'll kick them to death. If they have neither hands nor legs they'll bite and headbutt the person. If they lack a head... wait, how they hell does that work?

My point is that if someone wants someone else dead bad enough they will find a way to make it happen.

Can everyone please stop including all gun owners in this? The number of stupid, crazy people who actually try to find an excuse to shoot someone are in my experience actually rather low. That's saying something because I live in Oklahoma and just about everyone owns, or know a friend that owns, a gun. As much as people around here say things like "trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again", most won't shoot someone unless they really have to. The number of crazy gun owners is like the number of furries that dress up in fursuits and fuck each other, the number is very low but for some reason it is perceived as much higher. The crazy people piss of the normal, level headed gun owner because "This is why we can't have nice thing!" Most gun owners I know follow all the safety rules when handling a firearm, and this goes even more so for the gun owners that own lots of gun. That may be because I wouldn't want to be around an unsafe moron with gun.

Kinda-unrelated: I found these beauties when looking up the staple gun gun. Their modified and custom painted nerf guns. Thought It'd be worth showing. I've always loved the epic paint jobs and internal mods I've seen people do to nerf guns. When I saw the first one I though it was a Saiga shotgun until I read the page it was on.

(click to show/hide)

[Canadian Mojo]

VirtualStranger has it right.  The problem isn't that we lack gun control.  The problem is our culture.  Keep guns out of the general populace, and we'd probably end up making our own, or resorting to other violent measures.

Pretty much.  The problem isn't that everyone's arming themselves to fend off the boogeymen, the problem is that everyone thinks they need to.

Our culture is rooted in fear.  We need guns because we think that everyone else in the world is a mysterious "other" and they're all out to get us.  We think anyone who looks or thinks in a way unfamiliar to us must necessarily have bad intentions.  We're a culture rooted in paranoia.  That person isn't trying to offer me a brochure, he's trying to sexually assault me.  That's not the pizza man, he's trying to break into my house.  No one trusts anyone.  We surround ourselves with weapons because we are conditioned to believe people are dangerous, and we do our damned best to live up to that expectation.

And this is why the Republican party continues to do so well despite everything it's done.

[DasFuchs]

Do you think if the people who wrote the constitution knew then what we know today would they have still inserted the 2nd amendment knowing the misery it was going to cause?

Is it that much misery? How many people die of preventable, firearm-related causes? Compared to, say, bath-tub related accidents (the usual measure)? Because other 'important' major causes of death (ie terrorism) do not kill many western people.

Well if the 2nd amendment didn't exist presumably consideably fewer people would own guns than do today so that would lead to a corresponding reduction in firearm related deaths. As for "bathtub" related accidents. Unless you know of another way for people to get clean then I think we'll just have to put up with them for the sake of public hygiene.

You're probably right, fewer people would own firearms. But crime and murder would still exist the same as it does now.

Quite honestly we own more firearms now than ever before and more get into the public hands with time. But at the same time our national crime rate including firearm homicide is dropping as it has been for the past few decades.
It's been shown time and time again regulating firearms doesn't affect crime. Thinking that getting rid of guns will somehow stop or hinder the current death rate is a poor response to the problem.

[DasFuchs]

No, it would not. This subject is a lot more complicated than that. The amount of legally owned guns does not directly correlate to the amount of gun crime (in either direction.)

Also, many "firearm related deaths" are suicides and even if the availability of guns is reduced you will still have people trying to commit suicide.

I don't think that is the case. Countries with greater gun control have far less gun violence. It is an indisputable fact.

True. Now, what's their violent crime rate pre and post ban/restriction? Unchanged you say? Well, odd, isn't it. It's like guns are a tool of a much different problem

[MadCatTLX]

No, it would not. This subject is a lot more complicated than that. The amount of legally owned guns does not directly correlate to the amount of gun crime (in either direction.)

Also, many "firearm related deaths" are suicides and even if the availability of guns is reduced you will still have people trying to commit suicide.

I don't think that is the case. Countries with greater gun control have far less gun violence. It is an indisputable fact.

True. Now, what's their violent crime rate pre and post ban/restriction? Unchanged you say? Well, odd, isn't it. It's like guns are a tool of a much different problem

As I said earlier, if it's not possible to shoot someone then they will be stabbed or something.

[Lt. Fred]

No, it would not. This subject is a lot more complicated than that. The amount of legally owned guns does not directly correlate to the amount of gun crime (in either direction.)

Also, many "firearm related deaths" are suicides and even if the availability of guns is reduced you will still have people trying to commit suicide.

I don't think that is the case. Countries with greater gun control have far less gun violence. It is an indisputable fact.

True. Now, what's their violent crime rate pre and post ban/restriction? Unchanged you say?

Where's that coming from?

[wyvern999]

Yes, yes I do.

So do you think the above is as deadly as these?



These were the guns used by Mr Holmes when he was mowing down movie goers at the recent Batman premier all of which are on sale at any gun shop. Do you think he could have killed so many people with the makeshift contraption you have pictured? Personally I doubt it. More than likely you would just blow your fingers off.

If some desperado wants to cobble together some makeshift gun then there is not much that can be done about it. But 99% of the population wouldn't have clue one about how to make such a primitive weapon nor the inclination.

Why would the average person need an AR15 and a clip that holds 100 rounds?

[Damen]

I own an AR-15.

I own a 12-gauge shotgun.

I own a semi-automatic pistol.

I own several hundred rounds for each weapon.

And I have no desire to go shooting anyone.

And as far as firearms themselves go, I've already made a thread about it here. And, as I've said before (and will undoubtedly say again [and again]), AR-15s and shotguns are not the guns you should be scared of. They're too bulky and too long to be easily concealed and that is why they are used in less than 10% of all gun related crime and in less than 1% of all gun related homicides. The dangerous guns aren't the big scary AR-15s, they're the tiny little compact pistols you can jam in your pocket.

For as much infamy the AR-15 and Remington got during Aurora, they remain a very, very minor problem when it comes to firearm crime.

[Cerim Treascair]

... I miss my Remington 870 shotgun with the cantilevered scope.  That was a good hunting gun.  Didn't have the pistol grip on it though.

[DasFuchs]

No, it would not. This subject is a lot more complicated than that. The amount of legally owned guns does not directly correlate to the amount of gun crime (in either direction.)

Also, many "firearm related deaths" are suicides and even if the availability of guns is reduced you will still have people trying to commit suicide.

I don't think that is the case. Countries with greater gun control have far less gun violence. It is an indisputable fact.

True. Now, what's their violent crime rate pre and post ban/restriction? Unchanged you say?

Where's that coming from?

Just for you Fred;
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847

This issue has already been discussed in some great lengths here http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3500693
Yes, as much as others might not believe it, this was a very long discussion back and forth between both sides of the issue and the third in between.

Yes, yes I do.

So do you think the above is as deadly as these?



These were the guns used by Mr Holmes when he was mowing down movie goers at the recent Batman premier all of which are on sale at any gun shop. Do you think he could have killed so many people with the makeshift contraption you have pictured? Personally I doubt it. More than likely you would just blow your fingers off.

If some desperado wants to cobble together some makeshift gun then there is not much that can be done about it. But 99% of the population wouldn't have clue one about how to make such a primitive weapon nor the inclination.

Why would the average person need an AR15 and a clip that holds 100 rounds?

And those guns are used in less than 3% of gun related crime. Do you really think banning them is going to make that 3% disappear? Or will that 3% fold over and merge with other crime?
Of course the Brady group proved you could turn a bolt action rifle into a full automatic (even if it was more likely to kill the user than the targets), so hey, they gotta go too because anyone could do that.
We already have a ton of gun control in this country, and it works, in the sense that the law abiding aren't going to break it. But the law abiding aren't the ones out there committing crimes.
Heck, Holmes should have already been barred from getting firearms but because the authorities refused to take him as a serious threat when a mental health doctor reported him, his issue never went on his record for a NICs check to pick up. If anything you should be screaming at the authorities for not doing their job.

It's crap like these incidents and the kneejerk responses that bring things along like the AWB that was a total waste of time, money and resources to do nothing

[Lt. Fred]

No, it would not. This subject is a lot more complicated than that. The amount of legally owned guns does not directly correlate to the amount of gun crime (in either direction.)

Also, many "firearm related deaths" are suicides and even if the availability of guns is reduced you will still have people trying to commit suicide.

I don't think that is the case. Countries with greater gun control have far less gun violence. It is an indisputable fact.

True. Now, what's their violent crime rate pre and post ban/restriction? Unchanged you say?

Where's that coming from?

Just for you Fred;
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847

We did go over this at reasonable length. Yes, gun crime has seen significant reduction since the 1980s (when the most significant gun control laws were legislated).

[DasFuchs]

No, it would not. This subject is a lot more complicated than that. The amount of legally owned guns does not directly correlate to the amount of gun crime (in either direction.)

Also, many "firearm related deaths" are suicides and even if the availability of guns is reduced you will still have people trying to commit suicide.

I don't think that is the case. Countries with greater gun control have far less gun violence. It is an indisputable fact.

True. Now, what's their violent crime rate pre and post ban/restriction? Unchanged you say?

Where's that coming from?

Just for you Fred;
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847

We did go over this at reasonable length. Yes, gun crime has seen significant reduction since the 1980s (when the most significant gun control laws were legislated).

Yes, gun crime. Has the overall crime rate been touched? Ya know, have people with no gun simply thrown up their hands and said "Well, guess I can't shoot anyone, so I won't commit a crime"?