FSTDT Forums
Rubbish => Preaching and Worship => Topic started by: BigChrisfilm on June 05, 2013, 04:58:28 pm
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This is a continued discuss with R.U. Serious from a different thread. I'd like to try and keep this thread on topic, I understand while debating sometimes we get off track and forget what the original conversation was about. My goal is to avoid this so if I do not respond to something you say, that is why. Feel free to jump in if you'd like.
The first thing I noticed was that R.U. Serious said Jesus "never mentions anything about needing to profess a belief in him"
I'd first like to point out that if we are talking about what Jesus did or didn't say, the only way for us to do so is use verses from the Bible. There is no other record given that I know of for doing this. Therefor I submit some verses that I believe do actually show Jesus saying that profession of belief is important.
John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
John 6:51 and John 6:53
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Matthew 10:32-33
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
I believe that Jesus did in fact say something about needing to profess a belief in him. What is your opinion after reading those verses?
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IMO, only the last quote has to do with professing belief to others, and it's saying that you shouldn't lie about your belief, (i.e. denying Jesus to save yourself from persecution) but not necessarily that you need to profess to people who haven't asked.
Jesus also said:
And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and the street corners, that they may be seen by others. I say to you, they have recieved their reward.
But when you pray, go to your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who is in secret will reward you.
Matthew 6:5-6
Seems to me the lesson is to not deny your faith, but neither to make a show of it.
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Seems to me part of the big problem is we have four accepted versions of the same story where he is given to say different things at the same time.
Also his words are recorded when it is clear that no one is there to witness/record them. Fishy.
That's why the Jesus project went through 5 Gospels (extra one being Thomas) and came to a conclusion as to which of the gospel statements of Jesus were:
1. Commonly accepted as Jesus
2. Mostly likely to be Jesus
3. Mostly unlikely to be Jesus
4. Commonly accpeted as not Jesus.
You know which Gospel comes out worse? Unsurprisingly it is John.
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My opinion is that if you have to start by quoting Scripture, you're doing it wrong. Of course, "good" Christians think that Jesus wants a bunch of lawyers, not a new mentality.
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Well Jesus was a big fan of the Pharisees and their manipulation of scripture.
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My opinion is that if you have to start by quoting Scripture, you're doing it wrong.
Except that the question at hand is about what scripture says.
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JohnE took the words right out of my metaphorical mouth. (Never knew you could do that thing you did with your tongue, JohnE. ;) )
In any sort of literary or historical analysis, context is key. As JohnE said, only the last verse you quoted actually had anything to do with professing a belief to other people, and it reads more like an instruction not to lie about what you believe, rather than an instruction to make a public statement about it. Jesus telling people not to pray in public is also telling, since "prayer" can be used to describe almost any sort of religious statement.
Even Jesus' instruction to his disciples to "go out and make disciples of all the nations" falls apart as a profession of faith when examined in the light of Matthew 6:5-6. Have you ever heard the quote from St. Francis, "Preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words"?
Additionally, the Gospel of John includes many events that would have been too big for any educated person in the area to miss, events which would have instantly made converts of everyone in the area if they had happened. Just one example is entire cemetaries of the dead rising from their graves and walking into the city when Jesus died. Doesn't appear in any of the other Gospels, or indeed, any other records of that time and place. Do you really think that a Roman colony, with all of the educated men and scholars that came with being under Rome's aegis, would have missed writing something like that down?
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My opinion is that if you have to start by quoting Scripture, you're doing it wrong.
Except that the question at hand is about what scripture says.
He was asking for opinion, so I gave it. Whenever I see a slew of Scripture quotes, it just hits me that someone is missing the point about being a follower of Jesus. Citing the Bible like some sort of law book I feel is one of the worst ways to make use of its wisdom.
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IMO, only the last quote has to do with professing belief to others, and it's saying that you shouldn't lie about your belief, (i.e. denying Jesus to save yourself from persecution) but not necessarily that you need to profess to people who haven't asked.
Jesus also said:
And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and the street corners, that they may be seen by others. I say to you, they have recieved their reward.
But when you pray, go to your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who is in secret will reward you.
Matthew 6:5-6
Seems to me the lesson is to not deny your faith, but neither to make a show of it.
I agree that verse isn't saying we need to go out and make sure everyone knows we are a Christian. However I'm interested to know your thoughts then on this verse and how to would reconcile between the two.
Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
I didn't see R.U. Serious post until after I posted this.
First let me post the verse for anyone that isn't familiar with it.
Matthew 6:5-6
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
I highlighted the part I want you to focus on. This verse is not about whether we should keep our faith a secret. It's about motives. The hypocrites pray in synagogues to be seen by men. In other words they are glory hogs, or they are doing it saying, "Look at me! Look how holy I am!" This is of course the wrong motive, and Jesus is saying they already have their reward. The admiration of man, which in comparison to the admiration of God is pointless. In that light, I don't think it really has the same effect you want it to because it's not saying we shouldn't be open with our faith. It's saying we shouldn't flaunt it to be praised by men. Some people though actually can be guilty of this. Some street preachers could be subjected to it. It's all about motive. As with everything in Christianity it's a fine line between doing the will of God and doing the will of man. As sinful people, sometimes we take the things that are Godly and try to put ourselves in it for the ultimate goal of giving ourselves praise and glory instead of God. Ultimately, that's what's being said here.
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I agree with you analysis of the passage. I think maybe the disagreement comes from a slightly different interpretation of the word "profess." If you take the phrase "professing belief" to mean being honest about your belief and not denying it, then I would say that the bible definitely supports Jesus saying you should do that. But if you take it to mean going out of your way to announce it to everone, the case is much weaker.
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I agree with you analysis of the passage. I think maybe the disagreement comes from a slightly different interpretation of the word "profess." If you take the phrase "professing belief" to mean being honest about your belief and not denying it, then I would say that the bible definitely supports Jesus saying you should do that. But if you take it to mean going out of your way to announce it to everone, the case is much weaker.
I think I'd agree with you to an extent. I just don't know exactly what you mean. I would say first that while it doesn't say we should go around telling everyone we're a Christian, it doesn't say we shouldn't. That being said, I think that just going around telling everyone I'm a Christian could mean I'm just doing it to be seen by man. However it could also not be that. It's just all about motive to me.
Also, I would say even though I agree with you there is no reason to walk around telling everyone I know and don't I'm a Christian (and that it could actually even be sinful to do so), there is a commission to make disciples of all nations. So I do think it's ok to talk to people about your faith, even in open air preaching and witnessing.
I also agree the issue might be we (R.U. Serious and I) have different definitions of profession.
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I agree with you analysis of the passage. I think maybe the disagreement comes from a slightly different interpretation of the word "profess." If you take the phrase "professing belief" to mean being honest about your belief and not denying it, then I would say that the bible definitely supports Jesus saying you should do that. But if you take it to mean going out of your way to announce it to everone, the case is much weaker.
I think I'd agree with you to an extent. I just don't know exactly what you mean. I would say first that while it doesn't say we should go around telling everyone we're a Christian, it doesn't say we shouldn't. That being said, I think that just going around telling everyone I'm a Christian could mean I'm just doing it to be seen by man. However it could also not be that. It's just all about motive to me.
Also, I wouldn't say that since I agree with you there is no reason to walk around telling everyone I know and don't I'm a Christian (and that it could actually even be sinful to do so), there is a commission to make disciples of all nations. So I do think it's ok to talk to people about your faith, even in open air preaching and witnessing.
I also agree the issue might be we (R.U. Serious and I) have different definitions of profession.
But isn't approaching someone for the purpose of converting them going out of your way to tell people about your faith? I can understand if someone asks about your beliefs or why you act a certain way, but in the past you've come to this board specifically to evangelize, even to the point where it got obnoxious.
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I agree with you analysis of the passage. I think maybe the disagreement comes from a slightly different interpretation of the word "profess." If you take the phrase "professing belief" to mean being honest about your belief and not denying it, then I would say that the bible definitely supports Jesus saying you should do that. But if you take it to mean going out of your way to announce it to everone, the case is much weaker.
I think I'd agree with you to an extent. I just don't know exactly what you mean. I would say first that while it doesn't say we should go around telling everyone we're a Christian, it doesn't say we shouldn't. That being said, I think that just going around telling everyone I'm a Christian could mean I'm just doing it to be seen by man. However it could also not be that. It's just all about motive to me.
Also, I wouldn't say that since I agree with you there is no reason to walk around telling everyone I know and don't I'm a Christian (and that it could actually even be sinful to do so), there is a commission to make disciples of all nations. So I do think it's ok to talk to people about your faith, even in open air preaching and witnessing.
I also agree the issue might be we (R.U. Serious and I) have different definitions of profession.
But isn't approaching someone for the purpose of converting them going out of your way to tell people about your faith? I can understand if someone asks about your beliefs or why you act a certain way, but in the past you've come to this board specifically to evangelize, even to the point where it got obnoxious.
If you mean can it be sin? Certainly. It's all about motive. If someone truly believes everything that we believe, it'd be almost cruelty to not tell you about it. That's the way I look at it. I however can fall to the sin of pride just as others can. I think the easiest way of doing that is thinking that we can convert people. I don't try and convert, at least not anymore. I will tell you want I believe and what the Bible says. However I'm not going to try and beat you into the faith. Some people do, and some people sin doing it. I think the best thing to remember is we are all imperfect, and sometimes the best intentions can bring about the worst in us. I guess my point is Jesus did say we were to make disciples of all Nation. It's an interesting topic of discussion on how we're supposed to do it, but we (Christians) all have to concede that Jesus said to do it.
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I refer again to St. Francis: "Preach the gospel, and when necessary, use words."
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Actually I thought your example of the Samaritan is more apposite. After all Jesus praised the Samaritan and did not suggest that the Samaritan
did not need to convert to Judaism to be good.
Edit: Sorry should make more sense now.
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Actually I thought your example of the Samaritan is more apposite. After all Jesus praised the Samaritan and did not suggest that the Samaritan did not need to convert to Judaism.
...I'm sorry. There seem to be words here, and they seem to be in an order that should make some sort of sense, but they just...don't. "Did not suggest that the Samaritan did not need to convert to Judaism"? Wha?
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I refer again to St. Francis: "Preach the gospel, and when necessary, use words."
I've been told recently that it's just an attribution, but it's stuck for so long because it fits his attitude.
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I refer again to St. Francis: "Preach the gospel, and when necessary, use words."
Invisible exalt!
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Actually I thought your example of the Samaritan is more apposite. After all Jesus praised the Samaritan and did not suggest that the Samaritan did not need to convert to Judaism to be good.
Edit: Sorry should make more sense now.
And that was exactly my point. The Good Samaritan is held up as an ideal for Jesus' followers to strive for. Yet, if you go by the story (and if it had been a real event), many modern Christians would say the Samaritan was going to Hell because he didn't convert.
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Which is why I thought it spoke more about Jesus's attitude to the profession of faith than and proselytising than the scriptures referred to, being as they are, ambiguous.
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I refer again to St. Francis: "Preach the gospel, and when necessary, use words."
My answer to that would be another Bible verse.
Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
In my opinion, being that I believe the Bible the Word of God and St. Francis a man, I have to believe that is not a correct way to preach the Gospel. Not saying that people can't be converted because they saw a Christian living well, but I don't think it happens much.
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Isn't Romans the words of Paul? A man.
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I refer again to St. Francis: "Preach the gospel, and when necessary, use words."
My answer to that would be another Bible verse.
Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
In my opinion, being that I believe the Bible the Word of God and St. Francis a man, I have to believe that is not a correct way to preach the Gospel. Not saying that people can't be converted because they saw a Christian living well, but I don't think it happens much.
I think it would happen a lot more if more Christians walked the walk, or at least didn't allow the screaming about hellfire and damnation to set the standard for conversations of faith. Modern Christianity has, by and large, become very little about selfless love and very much about separating people into "us" and "them". It's become less about being your brother's keeper and more about filling the pews. It's become less about helping people in this life and more about securing your own place in the afterlife. In short, modern Christianity has a bad reputation, and it's very largely deserved.
Remember, according to Genesis, when God looked on his completed creation, he saw that it was "very good"...and that statement is never withdrawn, not even with the tower of Babel or Noah's flood. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Combine that with Jesus' teachings about love and sins of the heart, and it adds up to one thing in my mind: Nobody has lived a life of perfect, unconditional love.
Finally, if the Bible is the Word of God, perfect and inerrant, why are so many prophecies shrouded in opaque symbolism? Why are so many incredible things recorded in the Bible, but nowhere else, despite the effect they would have had on other people? Where, for that matter, does the Bible ever say that it is the word of God?
Edit: http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=240 (http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=240) This strip and the three after it give an excellent portrait about how many people today perceive Christianity.
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Actually I thought your example of the Samaritan is more apposite. After all Jesus praised the Samaritan and did not suggest that the Samaritan did not need to convert to Judaism to be good.
Edit: Sorry should make more sense now.
And that was exactly my point. The Good Samaritan is held up as an ideal for Jesus' followers to strive for. Yet, if you go by the story (and if it had been a real event), many modern Christians would say the Samaritan was going to Hell because he didn't convert.
I'd like to try and tackle this issue now if you guys don't mind. First the "Good Samaritan" is a parable, he isn't a real person. Therefor at no point does Jesus say or even refer that he was saved by these acts because it wasn't necessary for the story. To speculate on if he is or isn't going to hell would just be adding something to the story that was never meant to be part of the story.
The parable was actually not in response to the question of how to be saved. Let me explain.
In verse 25 we see
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Jesus says "...What is written in the law?... "
He responds with "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself"
Jesus' response "...Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."
Lawyer - "...willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?"
Now, this is the question Jesus is answering with this parable. He's already answer the question of "what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" The "Good Samaritan" is not meant to show how to be saved, but rather to show the Lawyer he wasn't keeping the Law. The Lawyer tried to justify that by saying "well, I love my neighbor but not the Samaritan's. Surely they aren't who we're talking about right?" I saw it posted on the net and I'll try my best at rewording it. The meanings of the "Good Samaritan" parable are we should set aside our prejudice and show love and compassion to everyone. It was also used to show that we cannot keep the Law, and we need a savior (Someone to do it for us). So really, the status of the "Good Samaritan" (or fictional character) doesn't matter, and is never discussed.
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Isn't Romans the words of Paul? A man.
As Christians we believe the whole Bible was written by men, who were inspired to write what they did, by God. So technically, we believe the Bible was written by God, through men.
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I'd be more inclined to listen to Christians if televangelists didn't live in mansions while crying that their church needs more money.
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I refer again to St. Francis: "Preach the gospel, and when necessary, use words."
My answer to that would be another Bible verse.
Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
In my opinion, being that I believe the Bible the Word of God and St. Francis a man, I have to believe that is not a correct way to preach the Gospel. Not saying that people can't be converted because they saw a Christian living well, but I don't think it happens much.
I think it would happen a lot more if more Christians walked the walk, or at least didn't allow the screaming about hellfire and damnation to set the standard for conversations of faith. Modern Christianity has, by and large, become very little about selfless love and very much about separating people into "us" and "them". It's become less about being your brother's keeper and more about filling the pews. It's become less about helping people in this life and more about securing your own place in the afterlife. In short, modern Christianity has a bad reputation, and it's very largely deserved.
Remember, according to Genesis, when God looked on his completed creation, he saw that it was "very good"...and that statement is never withdrawn, not even with the tower of Babel or Noah's flood. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Combine that with Jesus' teachings about love and sins of the heart, and it adds up to one thing in my mind: Nobody has lived a life of perfect, unconditional love.
Finally, if the Bible is the Word of God, perfect and inerrant, why are so many prophecies shrouded in opaque symbolism? Why are so many incredible things recorded in the Bible, but nowhere else, despite the effect they would have had on other people? Where, for that matter, does the Bible ever say that it is the word of God?
Edit: http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=240 (http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=240) This strip and the three after it give an excellent portrait about how many people today perceive Christianity.
I'd agree with much of what you're saying. There is a lot of that going on. To me it's just more proof that we are sinful at nature and are imperfect beings who fail, even when our intentions are good. However I submit to you that even though this is the case, just because some people are "doing it wrong", it doesn't prove that the religion is wrong. I think sometimes people look at Christians and hold them up to the highest standard of excellence. Please remember that we are not perfect either. We fail, we do the wrong thing. We sin, we are imperfect beings. I would only implore you and the others on this site not to judge the Christian God by the actions of his presumed followers. We are being shaped a molded into the image of Christ, we don't become it after conversion. My hope is that some of you who knew me can see that change in me now.
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People might be less inclined to hold Christians to such high standards if Christians spent less time pointing out other people's imperfections. "You hypocrite, how can you speak of the mote in your neighbor's eye when you have a beam through your own? First remove the beam from your own eye; then you will see clearly to help your neighbor remove the mote." Too many Christians take the phrase "not perfect, just forgiven" and use it as an excuse to act in ways that Jesus would, at the very least, disapprove of. When I was in school, some of my worst tormentors were Christians, particularly when I lived in Kentucky. I was once stoned by the choir of my family's church; that was when I stopped participating in the choir and gave up on organized religion in general. For all the people that modern Christians like to point out as destined for Hell, Jesus used that particular condemnation for only one type of person: Hypocrites.
I can't tell if you've really changed from the few posts you've had in this go-round thus far. You're showing some good signs, but as the saying goes, "once bitten, twice shy."
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People might be less inclined to hold Christians to such high standards if Christians spent less time pointing out other people's imperfections. "You hypocrite, how can you speak of the mote in your neighbor's eye when you have a beam through your own? First remove the beam from your own eye; then you will see clearly to help your neighbor remove the mote." Too many Christians take the phrase "not perfect, just forgiven" and use it as an excuse to act in ways that Jesus would, at the very least, disapprove of. When I was in school, some of my worst tormentors were Christians, particularly when I lived in Kentucky. I was once stoned by the choir of my family's church; that was when I stopped participating in the choir and gave up on organized religion in general. For all the people that modern Christians like to point out as destined for Hell, Jesus used that particular condemnation for only one type of person: Hypocrites.
I can't tell if you've really changed from the few posts you've had in this go-round thus far. You're showing some good signs, but as the saying goes, "once bitten, twice shy."
I can understand that. Honestly at its heart, The Bible is very offensive to us. When quoting it certainly can feel like you're being attacked. I think of it like this though, sometimes the things that hurt are the things we know are true. I've heard it said that if you throw a stone in a yard full of dogs the one who yelps is the one who got hit. I honestly can't tell you what the best way to evangelize is. All I can tell you is we're suppose to do it. I do want to point out though that Jesus did say hypocrites would be cast out, but he's pretty clear that all sinners will have their part in the lake of fire. I know it may seem like I'm hell fire preaching now, I just wanted to make the point that isn't the only group of people. I'd be irresponsible of me to let you think that everyone but hypocritical Christians are ok to go.
I also want to say that's terrible about your childhood experience, and for what it's worth I'd like to apologize for the way those Christians treated you. Again I know some Christians don't act right, but also remember that Jesus said some Christians would be cast out because he never knew them. That doesn't mean that true believers will be cast out, but rather there are some people going around claiming to be something they're not. I'd just like to implore you, and everyone else reading to not judge God for what his presumed followers have done.
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I refer again to St. Francis: "Preach the gospel, and when necessary, use words."
I love love LOVE that quote. Ol' Francis was awesome. Animal lover to boot. I try to use him as a religious role model, because I'm not perfect enough to emulate Jesus.
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I refer again to St. Francis: "Preach the gospel, and when necessary, use words."
My answer to that would be another Bible verse.
Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
In my opinion, being that I believe the Bible the Word of God and St. Francis a man, I have to believe that is not a correct way to preach the Gospel. Not saying that people can't be converted because they saw a Christian living well, but I don't think it happens much.
I'm sure it happens more often than you may think though.
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I can understand that. Honestly at its heart, The Bible is very offensive to us. When quoting it certainly can feel like you're being attacked. I think of it like this though, sometimes the things that hurt are the things we know are true. I've heard it said that if you throw a stone in a yard full of dogs the one who yelps is the one who got hit. I honestly can't tell you what the best way to evangelize is. All I can tell you is we're suppose to do it. I do want to point out though that Jesus did say hypocrites would be cast out, but he's pretty clear that all sinners will have their part in the lake of fire. I know it may seem like I'm hell fire preaching now, I just wanted to make the point that isn't the only group of people. I'd be irresponsible of me to let you think that everyone but hypocritical Christians are ok to go.
I also want to say that's terrible about your childhood experience, and for what it's worth I'd like to apologize for the way those Christians treated you. Again I know some Christians don't act right, but also remember that Jesus said some Christians would be cast out because he never knew them. That doesn't mean that true believers will be cast out, but rather there are some people going around claiming to be something they're not. I'd just like to implore you, and everyone else reading to not judge God for what his presumed followers have done.
The Bible isn't offensive. People using it as some sort of weapon, however, are. The person you looked at in the mirror and loathed with all your being, obsessed with shutting down FSTDT with apologetics because you believed it was a hate site long ago was one of them.
Most everyone here is pretty aware that the Bible says sinners go to Hell. We know it says that, and the whole "you can't be forgiven unless Jesus approves" is something we're also aware of, but so is the average person's desire for prestige, attention and influence. And although I do remember what you did, I'll keep in mind that you are certainly putting on the impression that you've drifted away from that mentality.
And not judging God for what his presumed followers have done is what this site is all about, although mileage will vary. After all, you came back here a few years ago and started quoting the bible in the forums, saying "you like to talk against people, let's see you fight the WORD of GOD!"
You might say the preaching "hurts" but I don't think you feel any less hurt when someone quotes the Bible at you when they think you've misinterpreted something.
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I can understand that. Honestly at its heart, The Bible is very offensive to us. When quoting it certainly can feel like you're being attacked.
That, that it is being used in place of an argument, or both.
In the context of this thread it makes sense, & I'm not sure how much sense Rime's reaction makes, but here we are.
I think of it like this though, sometimes the things that hurt are the things we know are true.
Other times it's the things that are just kind of dickish. The Bible says some things about unbelievers being foolish & possibly evil, I'm not really sure. I don't really care, either, people believe some pretty bizarre things about that which they do not understand. Also, haven't anti-Christian things pissed you off before?
I honestly can't tell you what the best way to evangelize is. All I can tell you is we're suppose to do it.
That'll end well. Also, I think it is easily answered by the following question: What is the best way for me to turn you into an atheist?
Exactly. That's how much sense evangelizing makes.
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Also, I think it is easily answered by the following question: What is the best way for me to turn you into an atheist?
I actually think that's a really interesting question, and the vice versa. The answer, if someone's willing to answer, tells you a lot about their mentality and thought process.
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I can understand that. Honestly at its heart, The Bible is very offensive to us. When quoting it certainly can feel like you're being attacked.
That, that it is being used in place of an argument, or both.
In the context of this thread it makes sense, & I'm not sure how much sense Rime's reaction makes, but here we are.
I think of it like this though, sometimes the things that hurt are the things we know are true.
Other times it's the things that are just kind of dickish. The Bible says some things about unbelievers being foolish & possibly evil, I'm not really sure. I don't really care, either, people believe some pretty bizarre things about that which they do not understand. Also, haven't anti-Christian things pissed you off before?
I honestly can't tell you what the best way to evangelize is. All I can tell you is we're suppose to do it.
That'll end well. Also, I think it is easily answered by the following question: What is the best way for me to turn you into an atheist?
Exactly. That's how much sense evangelizing makes.
You are right, it doesn't make sense for me to try and turn you into a Christian. Evangelizing isn't pointless though. I can't convert you, but I can try and answer the question you have. I can also tell you what I believe. There is so much bad evangelizing going on that some people get confused and don't truly understand what Christianity is about. I'm not saying that's you, but I think you'd admit that is sometimes the case with others. My goal is to provide the Gospel to anyone who wants to listen. What they do with it is their business.
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However I submit to you that even though this is the case, just because some people are "doing it wrong", it doesn't prove that the religion is wrong. I think sometimes people look at Christians and hold them up to the highest standard of excellence. Please remember that we are not perfect either. We fail, we do the wrong thing. We sin, we are imperfect beings. I would only implore you and the others on this site not to judge the Christian God by the actions of his presumed followers. We are being shaped a molded into the image of Christ, we don't become it after conversion. My hope is that some of you who knew me can see that change in me now.
Sorry, I know you said this a couple days ago. I've been away for a bit. But I did catch this and wanted to say a bit about this general sentiment, especially the bolded part.
I would submit to you that my (I hope our) biggest problem with the ones "doing it wrong" isn't that there are people doing it wrong. Every group has it's asshats or self promoters or people who just miss the mark so astoundingly. Atheists have Richard Dawkins, animal rights have PeTA, Muslims have clerics blowing up stuff. As you said, it comes with being human. No, my biggest problem is the silence from the rest of Christianity about the ones "doing it wrong". Every prominent atheist in America (both of them) say Dawkins is an ass who is harming atheism. The ASPCA and Humane Society among others denounce the actions of PeTA. And Islamic clerics come out against suicide bombers and such whenever they can (such as when being interviewed after a tragedy). But with mainstream Christianity you just don't see that except for what's-his-name that blew up that abortion clinic, Fred Phelps, and we all remember Harold Camping. Those are the only exceptions.
I will grant you that judging Christianity by the sounds of hatred + crickets chirping looks one hell of a lot like judging it by the hatred. But there is a marked difference. Just something to think about.
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Since it seems this topic is played out, Chris, which point from my initial post would you like to discuss next?
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However I submit to you that even though this is the case, just because some people are "doing it wrong", it doesn't prove that the religion is wrong.
Yes, but it doesn't prove that the religion is right. Just because democracy works okay in the US, doesn't in fact mean that it works everywhere else.
I think sometimes people look at Christians and hold them up to the highest standard of excellence. Please remember that we are not perfect either. We fail, we do the wrong thing. We sin, we are imperfect beings.
Mileage varies, BigChrisfilm. I don't hold anyone up to a ruler and decide they are worthless. Granted, my workplace has had some stellar examples of short term memory problems, bad attitudes, etc, but I do not write them off as people, just people who are fit to do something else. Besides, have you ever noticed that some folks claiming to have the Holy Spirit living inside them suddenly gives everyone the impression that they should be served as royalty?
I would only implore you and the others on this site not to judge the Christian God by the actions of his presumed followers. We are being shaped a molded into the image of Christ, we don't become it after conversion. My hope is that some of you who knew me can see that change in me now.
Yes, I'm curious as to how you went from "I'm your High Priest and I'll dictate wisdom to you ingrates" to "I'm very Christian, but I'm interested in what you think. And again, I won't hang the mantle of the past on your shoulders every time you post, but remember you had a stellar reputation before being banned.
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However I submit to you that even though this is the case, just because some people are "doing it wrong", it doesn't prove that the religion is wrong. I think sometimes people look at Christians and hold them up to the highest standard of excellence. Please remember that we are not perfect either. We fail, we do the wrong thing. We sin, we are imperfect beings. I would only implore you and the others on this site not to judge the Christian God by the actions of his presumed followers. We are being shaped a molded into the image of Christ, we don't become it after conversion. My hope is that some of you who knew me can see that change in me now.
Sorry, I know you said this a couple days ago. I've been away for a bit. But I did catch this and wanted to say a bit about this general sentiment, especially the bolded part.
I would submit to you that my (I hope our) biggest problem with the ones "doing it wrong" isn't that there are people doing it wrong. Every group has it's asshats or self promoters or people who just miss the mark so astoundingly. Atheists have Richard Dawkins, animal rights have PeTA, Muslims have clerics blowing up stuff. As you said, it comes with being human. No, my biggest problem is the silence from the rest of Christianity about the ones "doing it wrong". Every prominent atheist in America (both of them) say Dawkins is an ass who is harming atheism. The ASPCA and Humane Society among others denounce the actions of PeTA. And Islamic clerics come out against suicide bombers and such whenever they can (such as when being interviewed after a tragedy). But with mainstream Christianity you just don't see that except for what's-his-name that blew up that abortion clinic, Fred Phelps, and we all remember Harold Camping. Those are the only exceptions.
I will grant you that judging Christianity by the sounds of hatred + crickets chirping looks one hell of a lot like judging it by the hatred. But there is a marked difference. Just something to think about.
I agree with you about that for the most part. There is a problem in with Christians being afraid to speak out against other "Christians" who are not truly representing our faith. In my experience I feel it's because they are often unsure of their own beliefs, or I think it's the Western mentality we all have to not say someone of something is wrong. I think that is pretty much across the board though. I'm sure there are people on this sight who fully believe something that conflicts with my beliefs but would be unwilling to say I'm wrong. There are Christians out there who are trying to stand against bad or false teachings (Christian ones). Even if this is the case (which I admit it mostly is) it doesn't change whether what we believe is or is not true. It's still to me an example of judging God by the actions of his presumed followers. To me it's an issue of is the Bible right or wrong. Only you can make that decision for yourself.
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Since it seems this topic is played out, Chris, which point from my initial post would you like to discuss next?
I'd kind of like to talk about what you said were the American "fundamentals of Christianity". Just as a reference, what would you consider to be the difference between American Fundamentals and true Christian Fundamentals?
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However I submit to you that even though this is the case, just because some people are "doing it wrong", it doesn't prove that the religion is wrong.
Yes, but it doesn't prove that the religion is right. Just because democracy works okay in the US, doesn't in fact mean that it works everywhere else.
I think sometimes people look at Christians and hold them up to the highest standard of excellence. Please remember that we are not perfect either. We fail, we do the wrong thing. We sin, we are imperfect beings.
Mileage varies, BigChrisfilm. I don't hold anyone up to a ruler and decide they are worthless. Granted, my workplace has had some stellar examples of short term memory problems, bad attitudes, etc, but I do not write them off as people, just people who are fit to do something else. Besides, have you ever noticed that some folks claiming to have the Holy Spirit living inside them suddenly gives everyone the impression that they should be served as royalty?
I would only implore you and the others on this site not to judge the Christian God by the actions of his presumed followers. We are being shaped a molded into the image of Christ, we don't become it after conversion. My hope is that some of you who knew me can see that change in me now.
Yes, I'm curious as to how you went from "I'm your High Priest and I'll dictate wisdom to you ingrates" to "I'm very Christian, but I'm interested in what you think. And again, I won't hang the mantle of the past on your shoulders every time you post, but remember you had a stellar reputation before being banned.
Maybe I was not truly converted? Maybe I was too young in the faith? Maybe I was just immature? Not sure really, all I know is we all grow up and our mentality changes. I've had plenty of time and experiences since I first got on this site in 2006 (I think it was). I choose to look at it as the Bible talks about, the difference between Justification and Sanctification.
Justified (Also refereed to as being saved) is when we are converted, or being seen by God as just in his eyes. This is of course because he sees the debt for our sins as being paid by Jesus, and we are seen as completely guiltless. Jesus takes our sins, and the punishment for them. We are seen as perfect because he was perfect. We are then Justified, or Not Guilty.
Sanctification is the acted of being transformed day by day into the image of Jesus Christ. This is not something that happens the moment we are converted, it is progressive and lasts for the rest of our lives. I believe that is why I seem more mature, at least I'm hoping that I do as this is one of the proofs that we are in the faith.
Please don't think that I'm saying I'm perfect. It's actually quite the opposite. If I were perfect I wouldn't need to be saved, and I continue to everyday make stupid mistakes. I'm just like all of you, no better than anyone one here.
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As I said in my original post, there are only two teachings that I consider essential to Jesus' ministry: Love God and love your neighbor as yourself.
Now, before I continue, I'd like to make clear that I know the things I'm about to list aren't universals, nor are they exclusive to American Christianity. They're just the things that I see as sticking out particularly badly.
Enforcing Christianity as a state religion-You see this in such things as Ten Commandment monuments at government buildings, attempts to force Christian prayer in schools and government functions, and this quote: http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=63730 (http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=63730). This is in direct opposition to the First Amendment, the writings of Thomas Jefferson and the Treaty of Tripoli, just to name a few. There's even a political party specifically dedicated to replacing the government with a Christian theocracy; ironically, they call themselves the Constitution Party.
Opposition to homosexual rights - Most states have no laws protecting people from being discriminated against for their sexual orientation, and conservative Christians fight hard to keep it that way. The tide is turning...a recent poll revealed that 59% of gay-marriage opponents think that full legalization is inevitable...but the fact that people still think it's somehow their business what consenting adults do in private, or that certain people deserve to be treated as second-class citizens, says nothing good.
Opposition to women's rights-More and more states are trying to throw up roadblocks to legalized abortion, including in cases of rape and incest. The fact that many anti-choice activists are willing to make exceptions for rape and incest shows that it's not an issue of "pro-life", but an issue of trying to enforce a particular sexual morality, which not everyone is going to agree with.
Opposition to governmental assistance for the needy, the myth of the "self-made man"-The vast majority of such opposition comes from conservatives, who pepper their speeches with appeals to Christianity in the form of wedge issues like abortion and gay marriage. In addition, there's the phenomenon of the "prosperity gospel", which claims that God rewards his faithful with wealth. Look at conservative outrage over Obama's "didn't build that" quote, which was taken out of context. In context, he was pointing out that any private business relies on publicly-funded infrastructure like roads and plumbing.
Opposition to science-This comes in many forms, ranging from attempting to teach creationism in public schools to opposition to genetic research that could potentially lead to cures for many diseases and disorders. The vitriol against science that you see in many quotes on this site is only a small example; with the understanding that anecdotes are not evidence, I've run into dozens of people in real life who flatly oppose scientific research, particularly genetic research, often making the claim that science produces nothing good, while ignoring the incredible benefits science has brought to everyone's life.
This is just a short list of the things I see as the worst aspects of American Christianity. Like I said, none of these are exclusive to America, and they don't apply to all Christians in America, but they're the points that the vocal minority who the media treat as "real" Christians tend to emphasize the most.
On an unrelated note, it's bad form to make multiple posts in a row. If you want to reply to multiple people at once, reply to them all in a single post; cut-and-paste their quotes if you want. Posting multiple posts in a row just takes up space on the board.