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Community => Politics and Government => Topic started by: Svata on January 28, 2017, 11:46:54 pm

Title: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Svata on January 28, 2017, 11:46:54 pm
Yeah, this needs its own thread. Protests are heartwarming, support for it is horrific. I'm scared for the future of our country and I'm not sure I wanna be an American anymore.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Cloud3514 on January 29, 2017, 12:07:39 am
Well, this was the last straw to cut the guy I used to call my best friend out of my life after constantly seeing his blind obsession with Trump. So that's a thing that happened. I mean, obviously, this is nothing compared to the fact that our wonderful President decided that the Constitution doesn't apply to him, but it should paint a nice picture of just how done I am with Trump's and his supporters' bullshit.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: dpareja on January 29, 2017, 01:17:33 am
http://fortune.com/2017/01/28/nationwide-stay-trump-executive-order-immigration/

The ban has been stayed.

http://fortune.com/2017/01/28/read-the-full-text-of-the-judges-order-blocking-trumps-immigration-ban/

Text of the order:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Stormwarden on January 29, 2017, 03:46:52 am
So we're worrying about terrorists when we're a lot more likely to be killed by idiots with more bullets than sense, morons chatting on their phones when they should be watching the road, leaded water, and drivers drinking when they should be sober...

Seems to me that someone doesn't have their priorities straight.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Askold on January 29, 2017, 03:51:18 am
And WTC attacks were used as a justification for this but the ban does not target any of the countries that the attackers came from.

EDIT: This didn't take long... https://thinkprogress.org/islamic-center-of-victoria-fire-8a683f632a7a#.a818lr8z5
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: dpareja on January 29, 2017, 04:00:23 am
Fact: Since September 10, 2001, there have been more deaths in the US attributable to climate change than to terrorism.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Askold on January 29, 2017, 06:48:51 am
http://nypost.com/2017/01/29/customs-agents-ignore-judge-enforce-trumps-travel-ban-aclu/

Wheeee! That's an escalation and a half!

Does this mean that the police will have to arrest the customs agents? Would that mean that the airports have to be shut down because no one can check the travelers or would it mean that everyone could go as they please as no inspections can be made in the customs office? Can the president override the judge? I don't know but I bet we are going to find out next week!

EDIT: troublemaker.com/2017/01/29/federal-judge-sends-u-s-marshals-
Dang phone https://professional-troublemaker.com/2017/01/29/federal-judge-sends-u-s-marshals-to-prevent-trump-from-enforcing-muslim-ban/
Shit just got real.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Askold on January 29, 2017, 10:07:24 am
Oh wow, this just keeps getting better... http://www.rawstory.com/2017/01/steve-bannon-personally-overruled-dhs-decision-not-to-include-green-card-holders-in-travel-ban-cnn/
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Lana Reverse on January 29, 2017, 10:39:15 am
It's like he's trying to be the worst POTUS in history.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Id82 on January 29, 2017, 11:10:49 am
What? How does Bannon even have the authority to do that?
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on January 29, 2017, 02:20:13 pm
Topical, especially here on the product of the old FSTDT board. From Nesrine Malik: (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/29/muslims-america-untouchables-donald-trump-ban-islamophobia)

Quote
This did not start with Trump, it’s something that is only reaching its climax. For years, as people warned against the mainstreaming of Islamophobia, they were met with equivocation. “Islam is not a race”, “we are criticising Islam, not Muslims”, “we condemn all religion, not just Islam”. Mosques were attacked, women were spat on and had their hijabs snatched from their heads. Western media, led by the British tabloid press, established an industry of hysteria against Muslims with fake news. The niqab and its banning commanded hours of debate in European parliaments.

All the while Muslims repeatedly hit the panic button and were told that they needed to stop overreacting and being so precious. Rightwingers exploited Islamophobia to channel anti-immigration hatred, and liberalism took refuge in intellectual handwringing and posturing over prophet cartoons and freedom of speech and women’s rights, unable to ally itself with what it perceived to be a backward Muslim tradition, and failing to understand that the danger to everything the west stands for is not from Islamic extremism but from the response to it.

When Thunderf00t started posting memes like "I'll see your Jihad and raise you a Crusade" I saw it coming. When EDL thugs started co-opting atheist memes you could smell the xenophobia under the memes. When Australia's own Pauline Hanson rapidly switched gears from racist panic about Asian people to sectarian panic about Muslims the connections were plain for anyone who cared to look.

Us oh so snarky critics of religion allowed criticism of entire cultures, languages and ethnicities to sneak through under the radar. We forgot that historically, since Britain's original occupation of Ireland at least, that sectarianism and racism go hand in hand. Collectively atheist and religion-critical folks the world over gave the green light to anti Islam sentiment that allowed an actual Christofascist government in the most powerful nation state on Earth. Someone missed the forest for the trees on that one!
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Askold on January 29, 2017, 03:08:30 pm
What? How does Bannon even have the authority to do that?

Simple: https://thinkprogress.org/trump-bannon-national-security-council-a25f85f73a1f#.6pcqlhrb8 Trump is doing weird and crazy stuff like giving a lot of power to Bannon and reducing the power of actual officials who know their jobs.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Id82 on January 29, 2017, 03:13:33 pm
I can't believe there's still four years left of this. This whole week has felt like four years of bullshit. It at least takes some presidents a couple of Years to piss a large portion of the population off and cause mass protests. Trumps done it in seven days.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on January 29, 2017, 03:21:01 pm
Wonder if "Mr Trump goes to Washington" should be changed to "Mr Bannon goes to Washington" in light of who's actually running the country.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Askold on January 29, 2017, 03:29:31 pm
I can't believe there's still four years left of this. This whole week has felt like four years of bullshit. It at least takes some presidents a couple of Years to piss a large portion of the population off and cause mass protests. Trumps done it in seven days.

There is very little chance of Trump lasting that long. The Democrats will have plenty of material to impeach him and as soon as the Republicans agree that Trump does more harm than good for them they will drop their support. (Honestly, I am kinda confused that they haven't done so already.)
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: pyro on January 29, 2017, 04:58:33 pm
There is very little chance of Trump lasting that long. The Democrats will have plenty of material to impeach him and as soon as the Republicans agree that Trump does more harm than good for them they will drop their support. (Honestly, I am kinda confused that they haven't done so already.)

1. If Donald Trump is impeached, there will be additional riots.

2. If Donald Trump is impeached, it will damage the Republican party's reputation. Possibly permanently.

3. If Donald Trump is impeached, the media spectacle will be over.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on January 29, 2017, 05:17:48 pm
There is very little chance of Trump lasting that long. The Democrats will have plenty of material to impeach him and as soon as the Republicans agree that Trump does more harm than good for them they will drop their support. (Honestly, I am kinda confused that they haven't done so already.)

1. If Donald Trump is impeached, there will be additional riots.

2. If Donald Trump is impeached, it will damage the Republican party's reputation. Possibly permanently.

3. If Donald Trump is impeached, the media spectacle will be over.

1. Riots don't bug the rich people who own the GOP, they have private security. As for middle and working class people-all the better for the GOP to promise more "law and order" policies to them.
2. The damage to the GOP's long term reputation is a given following Trump's election.
3. I suspect Pence is even more radical than Trump, given that he actually believes in something other than himself and that something is radical Quiverfull Christianity That should give the media plenty to play with.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: niam2023 on January 29, 2017, 06:01:15 pm
I think we found Himmler - Bannon is quickly proving to be just as much a control freak, and bequeathed with just as much a master race fetish.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on January 29, 2017, 06:51:30 pm
Lookie what I found. (http://www.gq.com/story/trumps-muslim-ban-proves-that-his-administration-is-full-of-idiots)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: dpareja on January 29, 2017, 07:02:40 pm
And Paul Ryan:

https://twitter.com/SpeakerRyan/status/759845524132524032?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Quote
A religious test for entering our country is not reflective of America's fundamental values. I reject it.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CouDdCrXYAEK0ou.jpg:large)

July 31, 2016.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: niam2023 on January 29, 2017, 07:20:25 pm
Ryan is a fucking invertebrate.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: ironbite on January 29, 2017, 07:54:16 pm
I can't believe there's still four years left of this. This whole week has felt like four years of bullshit. It at least takes some presidents a couple of Years to piss a large portion of the population off and cause mass protests. Trumps done it in seven days.


There is very little chance of Trump lasting that long. The Democrats will have plenty of material to impeach him and as soon as the Republicans agree that Trump does more harm than good for them they will drop their support. (Honestly, I am kinda confused that they haven't done so already.)

Then consider this the line in the sand. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/01/29/koch-network-condemns-trump-ban-on-refugees-and-immigrants/?tid=sm_tw&utm_term=.25d99e67761c)

Quote
INDIAN WELLS, Calif. — Leaders of the influential Koch network on Sunday expressed opposition to President Trump's ban on refugees and immigrants from Muslim-majority countries, saying the executive order is not in keeping with their aims to build a free and open society.

“We believe it is possible to keep Americans safe without excluding people who wish to come here to contribute and pursue a better life for their families,” said Brian Hooks, the president of the Charles Koch Foundation, who is co-chairing a weekend conference of donors who help finance the Koch operation.

“The travel ban is the wrong approach and will likely be counterproductive,” he added. “Our country has benefited tremendously from a history of welcoming people from all cultures and backgrounds. This is a hallmark of free and open societies.”

The statement represents the network's first public critique of Trump since his election victory.

The Koches will be giving the marching orders soon.

Ironbite-the Orange Piss Pot's about to be emptied.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on January 29, 2017, 08:05:21 pm
I dunno, the Koch's might be against his Muslim ban in principle but are they going to lose money?

They're more likely pissed off about potential tariffs!  (http://www.wsj.com/articles/koch-industries-criticizes-key-feature-of-house-gop-tax-plan-1481146021)
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: niam2023 on January 29, 2017, 08:06:31 pm
How long I wonder until the Koch Wing and the Trump Wing come into open conflict I wonder. It would be terrifying if Der Fuhrer just ordered people to go kill the Kochs off...
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on January 29, 2017, 08:35:38 pm
How long I wonder until the Koch Wing and the Trump Wing come into open conflict I wonder. It would be terrifying if Der Fuhrer just ordered people to go kill the Kochs off...
I think the Koch's can probably afford better thugs and hitmen.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Id82 on January 29, 2017, 11:42:02 pm
Donald trumps pretty rich, but the kochs are extremely rich.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: RavynousHunter on January 30, 2017, 07:51:04 am
Of course, if push comes to shove, D-Tizzle is in control of the actual, real military, not a bunch of militaristic LARPers.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Askold on January 30, 2017, 08:35:12 am
As said by Rudy Giuliani:
(https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16299173_385716458474431_7134181113318662312_n.png?oh=c991580ca8d27eb1c836a6e1a108758f&oe=58FDEC63)

See, not a "Muslim ban" even though it was specifically designed to be one...
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: dpareja on February 03, 2017, 09:20:40 pm
Further developments with Trump's seven-country ban:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-immigration-executive-order-visas-muslim-countries-1.3966482

US District Judge James Robart (a GW Bush appointee) has issued a nationwide hold against enforcing the ban while challenges against it proceed through the courts.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pre-clearance-trump-ban-1.3965666

The order, should it continue to be enforced, whether by ultimately being found to be legal and constitutional or should the Trump administration direct Customs and Border Control officers to ignore judicial stays, may impact pre-clearance arrangements the US has with various countries or jurisdictions: Canada, Ireland, Aruba, the Bahamas, Bermuda, and the United Arab Emirates.

In particular, in Canada, US customs agents carry out customs checks at certain airports and other points of departure (specifically Halifax, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton, and Vancouver airports, along with the Port of Vancouver, the Pacific Central train station in Vancouver, and certain ferries between BC and Washington state; a bill passed by the US Congress in December is set to extend the arrangement to Montreal's Central Station, the Toronto Island airport, and the Quebec City airport), which allow people traveling from Canada to land directly at smaller US airports that do not have their own customs facilities. Because the checks are being made on Canadian soil, not extraterritorial US soil, they must be done in compliance with Canadian law and the Constitution of Canada.

If Trump's executive order were enforced at pre-clearance facilities in Canada, any Canadian resident thus discriminated against could sue in a Canadian court or human rights tribunal, and if the ban were found to be inconsistent with Canadian law, US officials would still be required to enforce the ban, per US law, while Canadian police would be required to prevent them from enforcing the ban, per Canadian law.

The Irish government has also expressed concerns about the ban, and the Dutch government, which had been seeking a pre-clearance arrangement for Schiphol international airport, near Amsterdam, cancelled talks to reach such an agreement.

tl;dr: A judge has ordered Trump's travel ban to be temporarily unenforceable; it remains to be seen if the administration will respect the order. Meanwhile, the ban could play havoc with pre-clearance arrangements the US has with certain other countries, in particular with Canada.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: ironbite on February 04, 2017, 03:31:13 pm
DoJ says they'll try and get the judge's stay stayed so they can keep on being idiots.

Ironbite-meanwhile there's a nice window where this EO is not being enforced as DHS has been ordered to STOP ENFORCING THIS YOU FUCKING IDIOTS!
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Askold on February 04, 2017, 03:50:22 pm
...Unless the Customs agents decide to violate this court order as well because they support Trump and his ban. Which they have already done in some places the last time they got an order to stop being idiots.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: ironbite on February 04, 2017, 05:57:48 pm
Yeah but Customs Border Patrol falls under the Department of Homeland Security and they will be risking their jobs now.

Ironbite-US Marshals need to be ashamed of themselves btw.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: dpareja on February 04, 2017, 07:50:40 pm
Yeah but Customs Border Patrol falls under the Department of Homeland Security and they will be risking their jobs now.

Ironbite-US Marshals need to be ashamed of themselves btw.

...and the DHS falls under the executive branch, which falls under the President, who can just say, "Fuck the courts"?

As Hamilton noted in Federalist No. 78:

Quote
Whoever attentively considers the different departments of power must perceive, that, in a government in which they are separated from each other, the judiciary, from the nature of its functions, will always be the least dangerous to the political rights of the Constitution; because it will be least in a capacity to annoy or injure them. The Executive not only dispenses the honors, but holds the sword of the community. The legislature not only commands the purse, but prescribes the rules by which the duties and rights of every citizen are to be regulated. The judiciary, on the contrary, has no influence over either the sword or the purse; no direction either of the strength or of the wealth of the society; and can take no active resolution whatever. It may truly be said to have neither FORCE nor WILL, but merely judgment; and must ultimately depend upon the aid of the executive arm even for the efficacy of its judgments.

(emphasis mine)
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Askold on February 05, 2017, 02:20:05 am
Yeah but Customs Border Patrol falls under the Department of Homeland Security and they will be risking their jobs now.

Ironbite-US Marshals need to be ashamed of themselves btw.

But this is Trump's America and he will write a presidential pardon for each and every one of them if some rogue agency tries to enforce the laws AND if they actually do what the judge ordered Trump might fire them and replace them with people who will do what he says.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: dpareja on February 05, 2017, 02:45:18 am
Yeah but Customs Border Patrol falls under the Department of Homeland Security and they will be risking their jobs now.

Ironbite-US Marshals need to be ashamed of themselves btw.

But this is Trump's America and he will write a presidential pardon for each and every one of them if some rogue agency tries to enforce the laws AND if they actually do what the judge ordered Trump might fire them and replace them with people who will do what he says.

If the pardon power extends that far, the President is effectively a dictator.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Askold on February 05, 2017, 03:00:32 am
Yeah but Customs Border Patrol falls under the Department of Homeland Security and they will be risking their jobs now.

Ironbite-US Marshals need to be ashamed of themselves btw.

But this is Trump's America and he will write a presidential pardon for each and every one of them if some rogue agency tries to enforce the laws AND if they actually do what the judge ordered Trump might fire them and replace them with people who will do what he says.

If the pardon power extends that far, the President is effectively a dictator.


...And?
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: dpareja on February 05, 2017, 03:28:36 am
Yeah but Customs Border Patrol falls under the Department of Homeland Security and they will be risking their jobs now.

Ironbite-US Marshals need to be ashamed of themselves btw.

But this is Trump's America and he will write a presidential pardon for each and every one of them if some rogue agency tries to enforce the laws AND if they actually do what the judge ordered Trump might fire them and replace them with people who will do what he says.

If the pardon power extends that far, the President is effectively a dictator.


...And?

"...the President is effectively a dictator."

That not scary enough for you?

If the President can say, "Go break the law, then I'll pardon you for breaking the law," then there's basically nothing the President can't do. Either he acts within the law, and there's no need for the pardon, or he acts outside it, and issues pardons as necessary. In either case, there are no consequences.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Askold on February 05, 2017, 04:44:41 am
I didn't say that it's not a scary thing but it seems like something Trump would try to do.

Either he is removed from office or he will become a dictator. Those are the two options I see happening.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: dpareja on February 05, 2017, 04:48:38 am
I didn't say that it's not a scary thing but it seems like something Trump would try to do.

Either he is removed from office or he will become a dictator. Those are the two options I see happening.

Third option: he becomes a dictator in response to the attempt to remove him from office.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Askold on February 05, 2017, 05:05:12 am
I didn't say that it's not a scary thing but it seems like something Trump would try to do.

Either he is removed from office or he will become a dictator. Those are the two options I see happening.

Third option: he becomes a dictator in response to the attempt to remove him from office.


No it's not. That's still the second option. So is "after Trump is removed from office the Alt-Right start a rebellion and with their fedora's of enlightenment and superiour meme-warfare take over USA and install Trump as Dictator-God-Emperor-for-life."

Third option would be "Despite some hiccups for the first few weeks, Trump serves two terms as the president while respecting the constitution and ruling wisely to the surprise of everyone on Earth."
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Askold on February 05, 2017, 07:05:46 am
Or I guess they could simply decide that the Muslim ban is cool and there's nothing wrong with it:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-administration-files-appeal-washington-judges-travel-ban/story?id=45274114
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: dpareja on February 05, 2017, 08:16:50 am
Or I guess they could simply decide that the Muslim ban is cool and there's nothing wrong with it:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-administration-files-appeal-washington-judges-travel-ban/story?id=45274114

They can appeal, but the appeals court has said that the restraining order is still in effect for now.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Askold on February 05, 2017, 09:31:51 am
...Too complicated for me. There are too many appeals and denies of whatevers for me to keep track of what is going on. I thought the article meant that the ban was in effect and the attempt to cancel it had been cancelled.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: ironbite on February 05, 2017, 09:50:57 am
It's not that complicated if you pay attention.

Ironbite-i stead of wallowing in dispair
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Askold on February 05, 2017, 01:21:48 pm
No, I really mean that the lawspeak is getting over my comprehension level.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Sigmaleph on February 05, 2017, 01:34:06 pm
...Too complicated for me. There are too many appeals and denies of whatevers for me to keep track of what is going on. I thought the article meant that the ban was in effect and the attempt to cancel it had been cancelled.

The opposite. Trump's ban is not in effect, DoJ attempted to stop the thing that was stopping it, was not successful.

So, Trump tries to deny travel from certain countries, the courts deny this denial, he tries to deny the denial of his denial, but they deny his denial of their denial of the original denial. Straightforward
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Askold on February 05, 2017, 01:45:35 pm
I got confused because I thought that the Department of Justice was what halted the ban earlier.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: ironbite on February 05, 2017, 03:15:35 pm
Only if you thought our judicial system falls in the DoJ.
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: Askold on February 05, 2017, 03:25:41 pm
It doesn't? Then why is it called the Department of JUSTICE?!
Title: Re: The whole muslim ban debacle
Post by: RavynousHunter on February 05, 2017, 03:49:54 pm
The DoJ, to the best of my knowledge, is merely a part of the President's cabinet, much like the State Department or the Department of Transportation.  Congress makes laws, the Executive enforces them, and the Judiciary reviews them to determine if they're Constitutional.