Author Topic: Sanctions Against North Korea  (Read 9838 times)

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Offline Askold

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Re: Sanctions Against North Korea
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2013, 08:34:49 am »
Raimo Väyrynen, a Finnish professor of international politics was interviewed about these latest incidents.

He believes that the fall of NK is close and that Kim Jon-Ung is not really in charge of the country, instead the military has been taking over the leadership from the politicians and the Kim dynasty. The border to China is "leaking." Corruption and "grey economy" are increasing more than ever before. And despite the hard work by the goverment and military the country is not as isolated as before. Also, he felt that a nuclear strike was unlikely since NK doesn't have ICBM nukes yet. Basically they are trying to bluff.

I don't know how good his info and speculations are but it seems to be in line with what most reports have said.

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Offline ThunderWulf

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Re: Sanctions Against North Korea
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2013, 10:53:11 am »
Surely North Korea knows if they engage in hostilities they'll be fucked so hard they'll need stitches.

But that's just the problem.  I think that Kim Jong Un is still very naive from living under his father's rule that he just doesn't get how world politics works and thinks his country is a lot more powerful than it really is.  Still, I do believe that it's more bark than it is bite.
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Offline Caitshidhe

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Re: Sanctions Against North Korea
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2013, 01:23:54 pm »
Surely North Korea knows if they engage in hostilities they'll be fucked so hard they'll need stitches.

But that's just the problem.  I think that Kim Jong Un is still very naive from living under his father's rule that he just doesn't get how world politics works and thinks his country is a lot more powerful than it really is.  Still, I do believe that it's more bark than it is bite.

It's funny. In just three generations, the North Korean dictatorship went through all the stages of a country's government going to shit. Kim Il-Sung was a competent ruler--at first. At least for the first few decades, and a little after the Korean War, the economy was self-sustaining. Then he refused to change with the times or admit that his ideas weren't working and the country suffered. Then Kim Jong-Il came into power and he was absolutely insane but had a death grip on the country and yoked himself to the military. Which didn't do anything for the people but kept him securely in power--he did, after all, learn how to control a country from good ol' daddy, even though he never had a shred of actual responsibility. And now there's Kim Jong-Un, who clearly doesn't know how to do anything after living as a spoiled wealthy playboy under his dad for the last thirty years.

Congratulations, NK! You managed to do in less than a hundred years what it usually takes two or three centuries for other countries to do! Excellence, pure excellence.

As for realistically understanding they're Gonna Have a Bad Time (TM) if they try and extend aggressions towards, well, anybody at all... I think there ARE people there who are aware of the fact that anything North Korea does will end badly, but a combination of absolute totalitarianism and extreme isolationism means that these few people are too scared to speak up. And nobody is going to listen anyway. Former (defected, no less) advisers to the Kims have said that they were notorious for asking for advice, then doing what they wanted anyway. The Kims just think they can do no wrong and their shit doesn't stink and they created a country and personality cult that means nobody will dare inform them otherwise.
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Re: Sanctions Against North Korea
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2013, 01:54:02 pm »
North Korea still thinks China's gonna back them and won't turn around to see that not only has China left them high and dry, CHINA'S IN THE RANKS OF THOSE THEY'RE TAKING ON!

Ironbite-I don't even think Vietnam is gonna back them on this.

Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Sanctions Against North Korea
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2013, 02:04:10 pm »
I covered some of this in the last thread on North Korea (when they made their last tests), but I'll talk about some of it here.

The Nuclear Capability

Simply put: if you're not in Japan or South Korea, don't worry.

The North Koreans don't have a great launch capability. They managed a single success with a rocket carrying a "satellite" (NASA confirmed that something is in orbit, they just don't know exactly what), after a long string of violent, fiery failures. Just because a single rocket succeeds doesn't mean that they've achieved 100% success rate. Indeed, it would be surprising for them to manage regular success with ICBM launches at this point in their development. Launching a satellite into orbit and letting the rocket burn up in the atmosphere isn't the same thing as directing said rocket to land on a specific target and have the nuclear device on the nose detonate. There's a good possibility that their missiles would miss entirely, or that the nuke would fail to go off (How many devices have they tested that failed to do anything as opposed to the three or four that did?). Assuming the rocket didn't just topple over during launch and explode against the pad.

Our Defense Capability

The reason I said only South Korea and Japan really need to worry is because they're the ones that they hate who are close enough that they may not be able to launch an adequate defense. The United States (their next target after South Korea) is not only much farther away, but is armed with various missile interceptors and other defenses. The only areas that they could competently hit right now (if the theories of them using a miniaturized Pakistani design is true) are Alaska and our Pacific islands like Hawaii and Guam. Someone in California won't have to worry much.

Even then, the American ABM system is virtually catered to the threat of a nuclear launch from the east. This is a quote from another site regarding such, which has been backed by a longtime military analyst:

Quote
We have 30 operational GMDs right now. Using a standard look-look, shoot-shoot, look-look, shoot-shoot, that's enough for shooting down 7 incoming ICBMs with absolute confidence, 2 GMDs being in reserve of that requirement. Firing 2 interceptors at each missile instead of 4 would increase the shootdown to around 15 ICBMs, though with our confidence interval of a successful intercept falling toward about 98%. That still gives us a relatively large likelihood of no missiles at all getting through, and of the one that does hit failing to detonate or missing so widely as to not cause casualties (since the malfunction rate might have been as high as 33% for early nukes). Collectively that means that the DPRK needs greater than 20 ICBMs to have any realistic chance of doing damage to the US mainland, and if the objective is to overwhelm the system and punch through to hit 15 targets, you'd need around 60 missiles (since in a saturation attack we'd probably fire a single interceptor at each incoming ICBM for 80 - 90% hit rate). That would be enough to hit every major urban area on the west coast at least once, but a lot of the west coast is going to be out of range of this thing. On the other hand the warheads are so weak and the target cities so large that something like LA can soak like 20 of these warheads and still be a partially functional city the next day -- they still built stuff in Hamburg after the firebombing level, at least, is what I mean to say.

tl;dr We can probably shoot them down. The North Koreans would need to simultaneously launch dozens of missiles to reliably get through our screen.

The Ground War

Assuming we don't respond simply by nuking or even conventionally bombing the DPRK into a scorch mark, a ground war on a scale not seen in Western nations for decades will follow. There's a good reason for the effort to use a nuclear deterrent: everyone in the NK military should know that they'd be crushed by modern numbers and technology, especially without China on their side. Nuclear weaponry is more than just the first choice. It's probably the first 20 choices before they'd resort to ground war.

Unfortunately, they'll probably be forced into that. And it won't be pretty for them.

The military of North Korea is, simply put, outdated and broken. This is from 2004, but it's likely still relevant. I'll mention the important parts. About half of their equipment is 1960s vintage, and most of the rest is even older (this includes biplanes as improvised STOL scouting aircraft). There's also the issue of logistics: they already don't have enough spare parts and fuel to maintain their vehicle pool, and a war will stretch their supply lines even thinner as they need to actually USE all of that stuff for something more stressful and wasteful than simple training exercises, and all of their enemies know that one of the first things you target is supply lines. We probably won't even need to fight the majority of their arsenal, since they simply won't be able to maintain it. And there's not even a guarantee that they have enough trained pilots and vehicle crew to staff the ones that are operating. Their soldiers may number in the millions, but it consists mainly of unwilling conscripts being forced forward more by the threat of execution than a true desire to fight a war. They'll be armed mostly with AK and SKS pattern rifles, and probably rely on human wave attacks akin to the Korean War (surprise surprise). DPRK military doctrine is firmly stuck in Soviet era inflexibility, with high leaders delivering orders that must be followed to the letter. Individual initiative is discouraged, and soldiers must simply follow orders or be shot in the back by their own officers.

Meanwhile, the US and South Korea maintain a firmly modern military. The South Koreans have already quite plainly told the DPRK that they can and will fire cruise missiles directly at their governmental headquarters (which is a publicly known target; even Google Earth lets you look down on them), so we can assume that the first step in case of a war will be to launch right there. We'll be able to attain air superiority extremely quickly, as well as send in the navies to blockade the shore and provide extra firepower for ground operations.

On the ground side, we're individually superior. Modern assault rifles fitted with grenade launchers and various optical sighs, including night vision devices, are the standard rather than the exception. There are large numbers of designated marksmen and automatic riflemen, which ensures that at least at the squad level, there will be at least one scoped marksman's rifle and one light machine gun to provide precision kills and large suppression/massive firepower, respectively. An M249 or Daewoo K3 will certainly work wonders against those aforementioned mass rushes. Anti-tank weapons like the AT4, M72 LAW, and SMAW are tough enough to easily punch through the old armor used by the DPRK. I would predict a single AT4 would be enough to knock out one of their old T-55s, which is the most numerous tank in the military; considering that one AT4 can be carried on the back of a soldier on top of his normal combat load (and quite commonly is), this gives massive anti-tank capability to the NATO forces. The soldiers also carry heavier equipment loads that include body armor, personal radios, large quantities of ammunition (current US combat load is 270 rounds, or 9 rifle magazines), demolition gear, and various other special use equipment.

Most importantly, we have logistics. The US is so successful because it can supply massive amounts of food, fuel, spare parts, and ammunition overseas with ease. It's very likely that none of the NATO parties or South Korea will starve in the field, or want for ammunition outside of individual cases where a small group faces overwhelming firepower. Meanwhile, standard tactics dictates constant bombing of North Korean supply lines to stretch out their capabilities as thin as they can go. It's estimated that they maintain 100 days of emergency ammo and fuel for a "full scale war" and 500 days of food, but this is assuming that none of it gets captured or simply blown up by the invaders. Moreover, they maintain such a reserve because they spend very little fuel and ammunition in training; most of their soldiers and vehicle crews and pilots haven't had more than token live fire exercises, and their pilots have extremely low flight time hours. They just don't have any experience.

If anyone would like, I can compare individual pieces (like rifle vs. rifle or tank vs. tank) in more depth on request. Just because I enjoy talking about this shit.
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Re: Sanctions Against North Korea
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2013, 02:19:46 pm »
Mind that's assuming a conventional war. I don't think they'd win, but they could easily bog down another nation for far longer than such estimates suggest if they aimed for the kind of low intensity conflict that the US keeps getting itself involved in. Though the crux of that sits on how many of their people would be willing to continue to support it. Are we looking at an Iraq where the core of the old regime falls rather quickly, or an Afghanistan where a couple of goat fuckers with AKs are going to make themselves a violent nuisance for the next 20 years.

Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Sanctions Against North Korea
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2013, 02:39:31 pm »
Mind that's assuming a conventional war. I don't think they'd win, but they could easily bog down another nation for far longer than such estimates suggest if they aimed for the kind of low intensity conflict that the US keeps getting itself involved in. Though the crux of that sits on how many of their people would be willing to continue to support it. Are we looking at an Iraq where the core of the old regime falls rather quickly, or an Afghanistan where a couple of goat fuckers with AKs are going to make themselves a violent nuisance for the next 20 years.

Well, the difference between North Korea and Iraq/Afghanistan is that a lot of the people either supported the old/existing regime or hated the US and viewed them as invaders. North Korea regularly has relatively large amounts of people fleeing the country (it's "fleeing" rather than "emigrating", which is an important distinction in considering the daily conditions of the DPRK; the country's like a giant prison camp), and there's mass famine, poverty, and concentration camps that you can be thrown in at random.

It's very likely that NATO will practically be welcomed with open arms, especially if they do as I fully expect them to do and show kindness and provide assistance to the citizens of the occupied areas. It'll take a ton of time and effort, but I don't think the US will have to contend with the majority of the country despising them merely for existing too close to their homes and accusing them of imperialism.

It's also important to note that in the case of Iraq, the war was mostly conventional because they didn't display nuclear capabilities (merely vague suggestions of WMDs that a lot of people didn't trust) and didn't have a very large or well-equipped military. North Korea doesn't have good equipment, but they do have a standing army of almost 2 million and almost 5 million in reserve (using 2004 numbers) and are actively threatening to use nuclear devices that we KNOW that they have.

I predict that if the US doesn't simply engage in MAD and nuke 'em, the conventional war will begin with a cruise missile strike and bombings on North Korean leadership (Kim-Jong Un will probably be nothing but a pair of smoking shoes in a pile of rubble within a very short time), followed by attacks on all known or apparent ICBM launch sites. The navies of all involved countries, most prominently the US and South Korea, will sail in and surround the shoreline, blockading the country and providing assistance to ground operations through missiles and aircraft carriers. As de-mining operations commence in the DMZ to clear the way for land travel, South Korea can simply fly vehicles, troops, and supplies over or engage in beach landings (which the US will probably do as well). One of the first steps will likely be capturing airfields, allowing NATO forces to land heavier equipment and larger troop and supply loads than helicopters and ships can provide.

From there, the next step will be cutting a swath as far north as China will allow (assuming China simply stands by instead of donating troops to the cause; there's zero chance that they'll actually try to actively support North Korea in this case). It'll be slow going by modern standards, but probably hideously fast to us; air superiority will very quickly allow NATO and South Korean troops to move unhindered by aerial attacks, so most of the difficulty will be in carefully clearing out the wilderness on the way to important cities and villages.

Assuming the North Korean leadership has been shattered early on, the military will have great difficulty in operating. DPRK doctrine, as I said earlier, is highly inflexible and relies on a rigorously trained officer corp delivering direct orders. The leadership of both the nation and the military will gradually dwindle as less and less experienced soldiers are forced to take command. NATO leadership, on the other hand, is well away from danger and soldiers are trained in improvisation and individual initiative in completing their goals instead of blindly following their orders under pain of being shot. To a North Korean general, sending a wave of poorly trained and poorly equipped soldiers to charge machine guns and artillery is perfectly advisable.

There's no chance that we'll lose unless North Korea reveals that they stole Voltron or something. After the war comes mopping up pockets of resistance (likely the especially fanatical regiments of the military, rather than civilians taking up arms of their own accord), trying to clean up as best as possible, and then leaving some time in the 2020s for China and South Korea to take over. It'll very likely result in a unified Korea, as the North simply no longer exists.
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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Sanctions Against North Korea
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2013, 03:24:45 pm »
Oh, there's some info from Wikipedia (credited to Christopher F Foss's Jane's Armour and Artillery 2005-2006) regarding salvage. As much as 70% of their equipment has been dismantled and/or sold or traded for food to try and stave off the famine. 139 fully operational T-59 tanks in North Korean livery were found in a Chinese scrap yard less than two years ago. That's over 1/10th of the current suggested number of North Korean T-59s.
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Offline kefkaownsall

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Re: Sanctions Against North Korea
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2013, 03:59:21 pm »
Also important to note if they do threaten Japan we must get involved according to Japan's constitution.

Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Sanctions Against North Korea
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2013, 05:53:22 pm »
Also important to note if they do threaten Japan we must get involved according to Japan's constitution.

Indeed. And since we have forces stationed both there and in South Korea (the air base in Okinawa ensures that we could have planes over DPRK airspace the same day as the attack), an attack on either of those countries would entail an attack (direct or indirect) on our own forces.

Actually, would anyone be opposed to me creating a thread to discuss the war in more detail? Things like discussing tactics, "What would you do?", equipment comparisons, etc. I think that it would be a great chance for those interested in the military aspect to discuss how it would go, and illuminate others who don't have as much knowledge or understanding of the situation. And where exactly would such a thread go here?
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Offline DiscoBerry

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Re: Sanctions Against North Korea
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2013, 06:03:56 pm »

I don't see any likely way for them to "win" or to even scare the others to back down.
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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Sanctions Against North Korea
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2013, 06:14:36 pm »
For those lacking in context, that's a North Korean soldier flanked by an American and a South Korean. You can see the problem immediately.

Probably THE biggest disadvantage the DPRK has, even above their outdated equipment and tactics, is supplies. Even now, they're trapped in a famine to the point where the "grey economy" (basically a black market that becomes a fact of life and is even unofficially sanctioned by at least local government and military officials) is pretty much the way things work: everyone, even the soldiers and government workers, are participating in illegal activity to gain food. Most of the Stalinist controls and regulations have collapsed because only the guys highest on the totem pole regularly get enough food and water. As all evidence would suggest, the constant undernourishment is leading to North Koreans growing much smaller and weaker than their American and South Korean opponents. Even with the "army first" allocation of resources, the military is still growing their own food and rearing farm animals on their bases just to try and feed themselves.
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Offline MadCatTLX

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Re: Sanctions Against North Korea
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2013, 06:26:44 pm »
Oh, there's some info from Wikipedia (credited to Christopher F Foss's Jane's Armour and Artillery 2005-2006) regarding salvage. As much as 70% of their equipment has been dismantled and/or sold or traded for food to try and stave off the famine. 139 fully operational T-59 tanks in North Korean livery were found in a Chinese scrap yard less than two years ago. That's over 1/10th of the current suggested number of North Korean T-59s.

I cringe every time I hear about people scrapping something that I would love to have and would be happy to pay substantially more than what it's worth as scrap. I also hate when someone scraps anything that is perfectly functional.
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Offline Dynamic Dragon

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Re: Sanctions Against North Korea
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2013, 06:34:33 pm »
Also important to note if they do threaten Japan we must get involved according to Japan's constitution.

Indeed. And since we have forces stationed both there and in South Korea (the air base in Okinawa ensures that we could have planes over DPRK airspace the same day as the attack), an attack on either of those countries would entail an attack (direct or indirect) on our own forces.

Actually, would anyone be opposed to me creating a thread to discuss the war in more detail? Things like discussing tactics, "What would you do?", equipment comparisons, etc. I think that it would be a great chance for those interested in the military aspect to discuss how it would go, and illuminate others who don't have as much knowledge or understanding of the situation. And where exactly would such a thread go here?

I think a separate thread would be good.
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Re: Sanctions Against North Korea
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2013, 06:40:02 pm »
Also important to note if they do threaten Japan we must get involved according to Japan's constitution.

Indeed. And since we have forces stationed both there and in South Korea (the air base in Okinawa ensures that we could have planes over DPRK airspace the same day as the attack), an attack on either of those countries would entail an attack (direct or indirect) on our own forces.

Actually, would anyone be opposed to me creating a thread to discuss the war in more detail? Things like discussing tactics, "What would you do?", equipment comparisons, etc. I think that it would be a great chance for those interested in the military aspect to discuss how it would go, and illuminate others who don't have as much knowledge or understanding of the situation. And where exactly would such a thread go here?

I think a separate thread would be good.

Seconding the separate thread.  It'd be interesting!
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