The Problem With Primaries

[chitoryu12]

Extremes cause people to see everything as "black and white." 

Holding extreme views always cause people to see everything in black and white?

.....that's literally exactly what he said.

[Lt. Fred]

Extremes cause people to see everything as "black and white." 

Holding extreme views always cause people to see everything in black and white?

.....that's literally exactly what he said.

Can you read?

[chitoryu12]

Extremes cause people to see everything as "black and white." 

Holding extreme views always cause people to see everything in black and white?

.....that's literally exactly what he said.

Can you read?

It's in plain English, you dolt!

[ironbite]

The better question Fred is can you think?

[Lt. Fred]

Still waiting for a response to this (no judgement; B-Man may well be offline). Let's wait until I get a clarification, shall we?

[Captain Jack Harkness]

Still waiting for a response to this (no judgement; B-Man may well be offline). Let's wait until I get a clarification, shall we?

Well, not "always."  They tend to see everything on the issues they're most passionate about as all black and white, though.  They don't see things they don't care about as much in such terms, but that goes to reason.

[Lt. Fred]

Still waiting for a response to this (no judgement; B-Man may well be offline). Let's wait until I get a clarification, shall we?

Well, not "always."  They tend to see everything on the issues they're most passionate about as all black and white, though.  They don't see things they don't care about as much in such terms, but that goes to reason.

Firstly, I'd like to crow here a bit. Ironbite and chitoryu12 are complete morons, can't read basic English, ect.

Secondly, I still think you're painting with a damn broad broad brush. Or perhaps too thin a brush: people who are called centrists are, I think, much more guilty of the things you accuse everyone but them of.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

I have one issue with the "centrist" description and that is that the political center shifts as the mainstream veers towards the left or the right.

When people say "centrist" do they mean someone who is at the centre of the entire left-right spectrum as measured by the actions of left and right wingers from the 18th through to the 21st century or do they mean "at the centre" of the views of mainstream political candidates?

The latter changes as viewpoints and policy norms shift over time, to say nothing of different views of what "left" and "right" mean in Europe, Asia, Oceania and how these contrast sharply with what is perceived as left and right in the US.

A libertarian, socialist or liberal will have broadly similar views on social and economic policy in almost any historical or geographical context, a "centrists" position is entirely contextual on where the political "middle" has shifted to in their time and place.

[Captain Jack Harkness]

I have one issue with the "centrist" description and that is that the political center shifts as the mainstream veers towards the left or the right.

When people say "centrist" do they mean someone who is at the centre of the entire left-right spectrum as measured by the actions of left and right wingers from the 18th through to the 21st century or do they mean "at the centre" of the views of mainstream political candidates?

The latter changes as viewpoints and policy norms shift over time, to say nothing of different views of what "left" and "right" mean in Europe, Asia, Oceania and how these contrast sharply with what is perceived as left and right in the US.

A libertarian, socialist or liberal will have broadly similar views on social and economic policy in almost any historical or geographical context, a "centrists" position is entirely contextual on where the political "middle" has shifted to in their time and place.

First of all, you're implying that updating your position to accommodate new understanding is a bad thing.

Secondly, you're being disingenuous and ignoring a concept called "context." You don't have to necessarily be a centrist on everything.  A centrist could just be someone who sides with both parties at different times on different issues - and I'm not just talking about one or two issues.  You could arguably also imply context by the person, issue, and time.  Of course politics aren't static.  That's why concepts like "context" exist.

Also, we're talking about a political spectrum here.  Most issues have many components, how you fall on them depends on your views of each component.  You can't just say you're left or center or right.  There are different degrees of "leftness" and "rightness."  There's also different degrees of "How much are you willing to support a stupid - or at least flawed - argument because it matches your ideology?"  Remember that the flawed arguments could be strengthened with other arguments, depending on what they are and what they can be supported with.

I just see so many people willing to die on an issue hill because they think they're right and are too stubborn to considered that their argument or case isn't as brilliant as they thought.  Their political beliefs are dogma that they never approach with any skepticism.

I guess I think centrists are just a bit more willing to put their own beliefs to scrutiny.  They're also willing to modify or abandon their beliefs if they think they don't past muster.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

Stating that the political centre shifts with time, place and culture is ignoring a thing called "context".

How?

Also, I have no problem with you describing yourself as being a centrist or claiming that it's a good thing but your description of yourself as a centrist doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as what people mean when they say "Barack Obama is a centrist".

What I am arguing is that the term "centrist" is entirely contextual when it's used to refer to mainstream politicians, especially in the context of things like privatisation, economic deregulation and dismantling of tariff barriers moving from being seen as right-wing positions prior to Reagan and Thatcher's neoconservative revolutions and becoming accepted wisdom thereafter. This hasn't happened as a result of ordinary people naturally adjusting their views to fit the circumstances but rather because powerful people pushed and pushed hard to make this the norm.

[Witchyjoshy]

Still waiting for a response to this (no judgement; B-Man may well be offline). Let's wait until I get a clarification, shall we?

Well, not "always."  They tend to see everything on the issues they're most passionate about as all black and white, though.  They don't see things they don't care about as much in such terms, but that goes to reason.

Firstly, I'd like to crow here a bit. Ironbite and chitoryu12 are complete morons, can't read basic English, ect.

/mod-hat on

This is a blatant personal attack outside of Flame and Burn, and considering you've been involved in two scenarios recently where I've told people to knock it off on flaming you, I am giving you an official warning for your behavior.

Don't use personal attacks outside of Flame and Burn.

/mod-hat off

[Captain Jack Harkness]

I think the best way to describe "centrist" is to not necessarily be "center" on any issue.  I think being centrist means you don't tow any party's line, and especially don't tow a party line just because it's a party line.

[Lt. Fred]

There's no crime in changing your view as the facts change- "what do you do, sir?" asked Keynes. But that's not what you're doing. The centre changes regardless of the facts- there is no relation to the facts. That is, I think, the problem with centrism.

Frankly, 'centrists' are much less willing to allow challenge of their views. They just don't jump up and down about it.

Still waiting for a response to this (no judgement; B-Man may well be offline). Let's wait until I get a clarification, shall we?

Well, not "always."  They tend to see everything on the issues they're most passionate about as all black and white, though.  They don't see things they don't care about as much in such terms, but that goes to reason.

Firstly, I'd like to crow here a bit. Ironbite and chitoryu12 are complete morons, can't read basic English, ect.

/mod-hat on

This is a blatant personal attack outside of Flame and Burn, and considering you've been involved in two scenarios recently where I've told people to knock it off on flaming you, I am giving you an official warning for your behavior.

Don't use personal attacks outside of Flame and Burn.

/mod-hat off

Sorry about that. I just couldn't resist.

Also- not to whine- but Ironbite's drive-by personal attack went completely without comment, apparently.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

I think the best way to describe "centrist" is to not necessarily be "center" on any issue.  I think being centrist means you don't tow any party's line, and especially don't tow a party line just because it's a party line.

And this is why I don't think your description of yourself as a centrist means the same thing as saying that Barack Obama is a centrist.

Getting back to the OP. You stated that political candidates are pressured to adopt political opinions just to get preselection. Absolutely true. So the political centre with mainstream politicians is the centre of the positions adopted by the major parties, not the political spectrum as a whole.

This is the source of my gripe with the term, it means absolutely different things when you apply it to members of the general population and when you apply it to members of the political class who become selected candidates by major political parties!

[Askold]

There's no crime in changing your view as the facts change- "what do you do, sir?" asked Keynes. But that's not what you're doing. The centre changes regardless of the facts- there is no relation to the facts. That is, I think, the problem with centrism.

Frankly, 'centrists' are much less willing to allow challenge of their views. They just don't jump up and down about it.

If you are going to claim that centrist views have no relation to facts I am really going to insist you have some citation for that. Because I have not seen any evidence that centrists are less likely to have their views based on facts than people from any other political views.

And usually it is the extremists who stick to dogma and disregard fatcs. (No matter what group they belong to.)