The Problem With Primaries

[Lt. Fred]

There's no crime in changing your view as the facts change- "what do you do, sir?" asked Keynes. But that's not what you're doing. The centre changes regardless of the facts- there is no relation to the facts. That is, I think, the problem with centrism.

Frankly, 'centrists' are much less willing to allow challenge of their views. They just don't jump up and down about it.

If you are going to claim that centrist views have no relation to facts I am really going to insist you have some citation for that. Because I have not seen any evidence that centrists are less likely to have their views based on facts than people from any other political views.

If your formula for figuring out what you believe is ~L+C/2, yes it has no relation to facts. If your preferred policy happens to be the best one, that it purely by accident.

I have no such formula. I want the policy I think is best, even if it's 'extreme'. For instance, I support a nationalised pension system (like your social security). I'm probably one of a few dozen who want that, so I'm very much an 'extremist'. But I don't care. I still want it, because I have used reason and think it is the best policy.

And usually it is the extremists who stick to dogma and disregard fatcs. (No matter what group they belong to.)

Take deficits. This is something Krugman bangs on about for years- what is called 'centrism' has changed virtually not at all, regardless of changing facts. We still need to cut the bezeesus out of everything and raise taxes, even though that has massively failed in Europe. The liberals have been proven right- who cares? Kick a hippie.

[Askold]

If your formula for figuring out what you believe is ~L+C/2, yes it has no relation to facts. If your preferred policy happens to be the best one, that it purely by accident.

I have no such formula. I want the policy I think is best, even if it's 'extreme'. For instance, I support a nationalised pension system (like your social security). I'm probably one of a few dozen who want that, so I'm very much an 'extremist'. But I don't care. I still want it, because I have used reason and think it is the best policy.

What the hell does that formula have to do with this? Are you suggesting that centrists only pick the exact middle point in any political stance? Because that is not how centrism works. "This is not about: what does side A think? What about side B? Let's pick something in the middle." It's more like: What does side A think? What about side B? Does one of those seem like a good idea? If so let's go with that. If neither of them is a good idea let's do something different.

Actually, I think I just realized what the problem is. We are not disagreeing on how a certain political ideology works, we are talking about two completely different things. I don't even think that you are making a strawman, the way you believe "centrism" to work just has nothing to do with the way I have think it works.

[Lt. Fred]

If your formula for figuring out what you believe is ~L+C/2, yes it has no relation to facts. If your preferred policy happens to be the best one, that it purely by accident.

I have no such formula. I want the policy I think is best, even if it's 'extreme'. For instance, I support a nationalised pension system (like your social security). I'm probably one of a few dozen who want that, so I'm very much an 'extremist'. But I don't care. I still want it, because I have used reason and think it is the best policy.

What the hell does that formula have to do with this? Are you suggesting that centrists only pick the exact middle point in any political stance? Because that is not how centrism works. "This is not about: what does side A think? What about side B? Let's pick something in the middle." It's more like: What does side A think? What about side B? Does one of those seem like a good idea? If so let's go with that. If neither of them is a good idea let's do something different.

Then what you call 'centrism' is better known as 'liberalism'. Or 'conservatism'. You're assuming that all liberals or conservatives are dishonest, which is unfounded.

[chitoryu12]

Then what you call 'centrism' is better known as 'liberalism'. Or 'conservatism'. You're assuming that all liberals or conservatives are dishonest, which is unfounded.

.....what, no. That's not what he said. That's not even close to anything he said.

I'm seriously worried that there's something wrong with you.

[Askold]

Then what you call 'centrism' is better known as 'liberalism'. Or 'conservatism'. You're assuming that all liberals or conservatives are dishonest, which is unfounded.

.....what, no. That's not what he said. That's not even close to anything he said.

Yeah, I was gonna ask where I had implied something like that as well.

Lt.Fred: If someone tells you that he thinks the Mighty Ducks are going to win Stanley cup, but instead the victory goes to the other team, this does not mean that he was necessarily dishonest or lying to you. Maybe he was just wrong. Likewise if someone gave me that prediction and I say that I on the other hand think the Edmonton Oilers will win this time this does not mean that I am claiming that the other guy is lying to me. It is just that two people with the information they had have made two different predictions of the future. Maybe one of those is right, maybe one of us has more relevant information or is simply better at determining which team has the best odds of winning this year.

(Note that this was just a bad example of mine. I don't follow NHL, I don't even know if those teams still exist or play in the stanley cup.)

The same goes to politics. The different parties come up with different policies and laws and claim that those policies are the ones that are the best for the country. If someone supports a policy that you think is bad it does not automatically mean that he is simply lying and tries to make others accept a bad policy. Maybe he really think it will work.

[Lt. Fred]

What the hell does that formula have to do with this? Are you suggesting that centrists only pick the exact middle point in any political stance? Because that is not how centrism works. "This is not about: what does side A think? What about side B? Let's pick something in the middle." It's more like: What does side A think? What about side B? Does one of those seem like a good idea? If so let's go with that. If neither of them is a good idea let's do something different.

That's exactly what honest liberals and conservatives do. If you think that's the difference between centrism and everyone else, you have a totally unfounded, insulting view of virtually everyone very much including myself. I apologise for being somewhat emotional about this, but I do take offence- and I do take offence at the preening, arrogant pretension that only people who are dead centre at all times are Serious.

I'm not sure why you assumed I was accusing you of lying. Can you read? Of course, it's totally acceptable for you to accuse literally everyone of routine dishonesty. That's fine.

[Askold]

What the hell does that formula have to do with this? Are you suggesting that centrists only pick the exact middle point in any political stance? Because that is not how centrism works. "This is not about: what does side A think? What about side B? Let's pick something in the middle." It's more like: What does side A think? What about side B? Does one of those seem like a good idea? If so let's go with that. If neither of them is a good idea let's do something different.

That's exactly what honest liberals and conservatives do. If you think that's the difference between centrism and everyone else, you have a totally unfounded, insulting view of virtually everyone very much including myself.

Have I claimed that liberals and conservatives are all blindly following their party/ideology?

Well, some people do that but you find them in every political group, including the centrist parties.

I was simply pointing out how I would describe centrism. (although, since there are centre-left/right/whatever parties as well which really are centrism with a preference for a certain ideology, the biggest differences are found between centrists and people who are leaning far to any given ideology.) But this is totally different with the way you describe it, which is why I pointed out that we are talking about completely different things and this argument has gotten pointless pages ago.

I apologise for being somewhat emotional about this, but I do take offence- and I do take offence at the preening, arrogant pretension that only people who are dead centre at all times are Serious.

...

So...

I am going to have to ask this again, maybe I can phrase it better this time... Are you really saying that centrists only take the dead centre positions?

And another question: When has someone claimed that everyone who isn't a centris isn't "serious?"

I'm not sure why you assumed I was accusing you of lying. Can you read? Of course, it's totally acceptable for you to accuse literally everyone of routine dishonesty. That's fine.

Ah, another misunderstanding. You see, your comment in this: (which you put into my quote, but I think you meant it to be yours)

Then what you call 'centrism' is better known as 'liberalism'. Or 'conservatism'. You're assuming that all liberals or conservatives are dishonest, which is unfounded.

Emphasis mine.

I assume that you implied that I think that the conservative and liberal are dishonest in their claims. Because that seems to be what you wrote. So I made two examples, or metaphors or whatever, to point out that I am perfectly able to understand that people who disagree with me might be honest in their intentions and beliefs. That just because person A says that a different action might be better than the one I support this does not mean that he is being dishonest, or trying to deceive me or lying.

I made that metaphor because I though that you had just accused me of claiming that I think that others are being dishonest when they disagree with me.
(This is getting very repetitive but I am trying to do this very carefully to avoid any further misunderstandings.)

So: I did not claim that you accused me of lying.
I assumed that you accused me of believing that others are dishonest/lying and pointed out that this claim is not true. (which, to be honest was probably yet another misunderstanding.)


All in all. I do not wish to debate with you about this. This has gotten silly and apparently I am very bad at pharising my comments which causes further misunderstandings and arguments.

[Lt. Fred]

What the hell does that formula have to do with this? Are you suggesting that centrists only pick the exact middle point in any political stance? Because that is not how centrism works. "This is not about: what does side A think? What about side B? Let's pick something in the middle." It's more like: What does side A think? What about side B? Does one of those seem like a good idea? If so let's go with that. If neither of them is a good idea let's do something different.

That's exactly what honest liberals and conservatives do. If you think that's the difference between centrism and everyone else, you have a totally unfounded, insulting view of virtually everyone very much including myself.

Have I claimed that liberals and conservatives are all blindly following their party/ideology?

Well, some people do that but you find them in every political group, including the centrist parties.

Okay, what's the difference between a centrist and a liberal? Define centrism.

Here's a reasonable definition of Marxism: the belief that economics are the basis for all (or nearly all) social phenomena, that capitalism is inherently exploitative and the belief in a revolution to overthrow capitalism and replace it with a worker's state.

Can you do the same for what you call 'centrism'?

[chitoryu12]

Okay, what's the difference between a centrist and a liberal? Define centrism.

Here's a reasonable definition of Marxism: the belief that economics are the basis for all (or nearly all) social phenomena, that capitalism is inherently exploitative and the belief in a revolution to overthrow capitalism and replace it with a worker's state.

Can you do the same for what you call 'centrism'?

Fred, you REALLY have something wrong with you.

The point of a centrist is that they're NOT liberal OR conservative. They don't go left or right enough to be considered either one. I don't even know what sense you're trying to make with your Marxist comparison; even if it were a tiny bit accurate to the situation (which it's not), this isn't an economics debate! Centrism isn't an ideology of economics or government! It's simply being a moderate instead of a strict left or right!

I don't get how you don't understand this. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

[Lt. Fred]

Marxism is an ideology. It is a consistent set of beliefs. Is 'centrism' an ideology?

[Yla]

There is no central(heh) ideology or common denominator to centrism. It's picking&choosing, mixing&matching ideas from other ideologies (classically socialism, liberalism and conservatism), each judged by their merits. I'm not implying that socialists,liberals&conservatives don't do that either, but in centrism the way of thinking is less guided by a central ideology.

It's just a common enough phenomenon when the result ended up somewhere between all ideologies that it was called centrism. If your personal values and ideas were different in that you ended up closer to, let's say socialism, you'd be called a moderate socialist/social democrat instead.
If it could be claimed in roughly equal measure that you're a moderate socialist, moderate liberal and/or moderate conservative, you are called a centrist.

Centrism does not have a central ideology. (That was, in fact, ltfred's initial point.) Now where does the idea come from that you need a ideology to be taken seriously?

Edit in light of ltfred's post: repeating the last point, since that seems to be sticky one: Why does one need an ideology to be taken seriously? Centrism isn't an ideology, but it is a political position.

[Witchyjoshy]

Fred, could you stop taking everything the other person says so god damn personally, when they aren't even saying anything that's actually offensive?

It's getting really old hearing you accuse people of being dishonest or lying, especially when they aren't.  Seriously.