Man arrested for tricking girlfriend into taking abortion pill

[Valerius]

The guy is a sack of shit, but I'm against legally treating a fetus as a separate person because it gives the anti-abortion advocates ammunition. "How can it be murder when someone else kills a fetus, but not when an abortion doctor does it?" It also opens the mother up to charges for harming the fetus through her actions. Should mothers who smoke or drink be charged with poisoning the fetus? What about if they do it before they know they're pregnant and stop afterward?

I don't support abortion up until the moment of birth, but IMHO a fetus should not be a legal person until it's actually born.

I agree, but I do believe if it is born and has fetal alcohol syndrome or damage from smoking, it should be taken away immediately.

Taken away... to where, exactly? And why?
From what I know, the most probable fate of a child with FAS in the foster system is so bad that if all the mother did was smoke and drink during pregnancy(knowingly or unknowingly? you didn't specify) I think it'd have better odds staying with her.

I mean, if the infant is born with FAS, it should be in the foster system. There's also birth defects caused by smoking, and those should also get the kid taken from the parents.

So that they can basically grow up never getting adopted and then getting booted out of the system when they hit 18?

Or, alternatively, grow up in a household that clearly does not give a single solitary flying shit about them, as proven by the fact that their mother chose to drink. I'd obviously want them to aim to place the child with family that isn't idiots, though. But, if the options are abusive family or system kid, I'd prefer system kid, because there's a chance for hope. It's not like we can just kill FAS babies. That would likely be considered unethical and evil. So, our options are to leave them with a mom who gives not a fuck, or try to find family or a loving alternative family.

I don't think you can really say that just because the mother drank during pregnancy, even knowing she was pregnant, that means she doesn't care about the fetus. It's not that simple. I'd be willing to bet that, more often than not, the mother knows that she's harming the fetus, but is so hopelessly addicted to alcohol that she can't help herself. It's quite sad, really. There've been cases where once the mother's gotten help overcoming her alcoholism, she becomes a wonderful, loving, caring parent.

In cases where the mother drinks during pregnancy, knows she pregnant, but doesn't care, then i agree with you; she should have her kid taken away. But I don't think it's fair to say that drinking while consciously pregnant = not giving a shit.

[Yla]

Eh, fuck the anti's, they will never understand the subtleties and nuances of a complex issue anyway. Some of them are so black and white in their thinking that rape and incest are gifts from god and that ending needless and ultimately fatal pain and suffering of a fetus or self preservation of the mother is simply selfish. The reality is that a  fetus has as much or as little value as its mother ascribes to it. If she wants it, it is a baby, and killing it is murder to her. If she doesn't want it, it is an invasive clump of cells growing in her body that she is free to dispose of. Of course, understanding and accepting that a fetus can be two things simultaneously depending on where you are looking at it from is far too complex for these people.

Something's/Someone's status and value as a person/potential person is not determined by the feelings or intensity of feelings of one other person.

Personally, I have no problem with a murder charge -- if that is what the mother wants because that is what the loss is to her.

Justice is not only about placating the victim/the victim's relatives. If you want to give someone a murder trial, there needs to be the death of a person involved somewhere. 'It emotionally felt like murder' is not sufficient.

[Distind]

Sorry, but doesn't this kind of law generally apply to violence or abuse of pregnant women? How is it different that instead of kicking her down stairs or punching her in the gut he slipped her the pill. Same result.

And yes, in this case the mother's feelings about the blob of cells are utterly relevant as they're her cells. If she wants rid of them she can, if she wants to keep them she can. Anyone else making those decisions will face punishment under the law. That'd be a minimum requirement to having control over her pregnancy. If you're arguing against this you're arguing that forced abortion is acceptable, at least to some degree. Something you probably want to think about.

[Yla]

Sorry, but doesn't this kind of law generally apply to violence or abuse of pregnant women? How is it different that instead of kicking her down stairs or punching her in the gut he slipped her the pill. Same result.

And yes, in this case the mother's feelings about the blob of cells are utterly relevant as they're her cells. If she wants rid of them she can, if she wants to keep them she can. Anyone else making those decisions will face punishment under the law. That'd be a minimum requirement to having control over her pregnancy. If you're arguing against this you're arguing that forced abortion is acceptable, at least to some degree. Something you probably want to think about.

That's not what I meant. Yes, her feelings matter about whether it was a consensual abortion and therefore no crime, or a nonconsensual abortion and therefore a crime. Her feelings however do not matter whether it's assault(on her) only, or assault and murder.

[PosthumanHeresy]

Sorry, but doesn't this kind of law generally apply to violence or abuse of pregnant women? How is it different that instead of kicking her down stairs or punching her in the gut he slipped her the pill. Same result.

And yes, in this case the mother's feelings about the blob of cells are utterly relevant as they're her cells. If she wants rid of them she can, if she wants to keep them she can. Anyone else making those decisions will face punishment under the law. That'd be a minimum requirement to having control over her pregnancy. If you're arguing against this you're arguing that forced abortion is acceptable, at least to some degree. Something you probably want to think about.

I don't see forced abortion as acceptable, and that goes for any situation. I just don't see it as murder.

[wrightway]

I have a cousin with FAS. His parents knew this when they adopted him. FAS is not an automatic ticket to a life in foster care.

[anti-nonsense]

Your cousin was lucky, most kids with disabilities aren't that lucky.

[wrightway]

Oh, I wish his bio-mother had done him the kindness of aborting him if she couldn't stop drinking. He's a lying, rage fueled, drug addict who routinely steals from family members to get his fix. I was only saying not all FAS rot in foster care.

[m52nickerson]

I don't see forced abortion as acceptable, and that goes for any situation. I just don't see it as murder.

The law does.  Really calling it murder or not is just semantics, and legal semantics in this case.  What matters is if you think the possible punishment fits the crime or not. 

[The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist]

As far as sentencing goes, a couple years jail time (with a chance of early release for involvement in inmate programs and good behavior) followed by a few years probation sounds about right to me. What this guy did is utterly despicable, but life in prison should be reserved for people who are demonstratively beyond rehabilitation.

[PosthumanHeresy]

As far as sentencing goes, a couple years jail time (with a chance of early release for involvement in inmate programs and good behavior) followed by a few years probation sounds about right to me. What this guy did is utterly despicable, but life in prison should be reserved for people who are demonstratively beyond rehabilitation.

Yeah. At this rate, I hope the jury finds him not guilty, because he's facing a mandatory life sentence if found guilty.