Mandella is gone

[Meshakhad]

The Wall Street Journal had a rather good editorial about him. It brought up the fact that he had been a guerrilla, but then noted how he avoided reprisals after he took power, then left after only one term in office.

[Lt. Fred]

At risk of expressing myself poorly:

I think there is a weird thing happening to do with our celebration of Mandela's life.  There are two things Mandela did in his life, really: firstly, he overthrew apartheid. This is, objectively, the most important thing he did. Secondly, he overthrew apartheid in a way that did not leave a bunch of white war criminals dead. Now, I'm not necessarily saying he should have done that, that's a big debate and neither side has, in my opinion, made a clinching argument. But a lot of press* seems to emphasise the forgiveness thing, as opposed to the, you know, ending apartheid thing, which is just objectively way more important. Not only more important, but way less controversial. Like, getting rid of apartheid was clearly the right thing to do and therefore we celebrate that. But some people think that letting all the white criminals off was wrong. It's insulting to their view to insist that they celebrate his "forgiveness", isn't it?

I think it's really weird, and maybe a little self-interested. What does everyone else think?

*Admittedly, this is Australian press. I'm also basing this off the off-the-cuff interview given by our Prime Minister and Dave "went on holiday to South Africa under apartheid" Cameron.

[davedan]

Lt Fred,

I do not think you can divorce the overthrow of Apartheid from the policy of forgiveness and ensuring that there wasn't violent reprisals. That was part of how Mandela overthrew apartheid. It was also a very important part. It was part of what stopped South Africa turning into what Zimbabwe is now. Mugabe could have made the same choices that Mandela did , but chose not to, to the great detriment of millions of Zimbabweans. That Mandela was able to move beyond violence was an incredible think given the violence inherent in his earlier politics and the brutal way he was treated for 27 years. The fact that he could do it showed a way forward for an entire country.

While you can't pretend that the troubles don't exist, violence just creates more problems and solves very few. My view is that ending apartheid and his forsaking violence were two sides of the same coin.

Vale Mandela, one of the few great men who can be said to have saved millions.

[kefkaownsall]

kind of but in south africa there was so little wealth distribution post aparteid you wonder if some forcible redistribution was required (SA has a GINI score of 61 one of the worst on earth

[Rime]

Lt Fred,

I do not think you can divorce the overthrow of Apartheid from the policy of forgiveness and ensuring that there wasn't violent reprisals. That was part of how Mandela overthrew apartheid. It was also a very important part. It was part of what stopped South Africa turning into what Zimbabwe is now. Mugabe could have made the same choices that Mandela did , but chose not to, to the great detriment of millions of Zimbabweans. That Mandela was able to move beyond violence was an incredible think given the violence inherent in his earlier politics and the brutal way he was treated for 27 years. The fact that he could do it showed a way forward for an entire country.

While you can't pretend that the troubles don't exist, violence just creates more problems and solves very few. My view is that ending apartheid and his forsaking violence were two sides of the same coin.

Vale Mandela, one of the few great men who can be said to have saved millions.

Well said, davedan, I think it's worth quoting.

[Barbarella]

The fact that Mandela ended Apartheid without blowing up opponents makes me respect him even more.

[Lt. Fred]

The fact that Mandela ended Apartheid without blowing up opponents makes me respect him even more.

Oh, no he totally had people blown up, tortured to death and so on, including moderate black South Africans. What he didn't do was have all the state officials- the South African dictators, the secret policemen, the generals- charged for the crimes they committed and shot. He totally could have done that, it would have been well within the law, but he didn't.

I'm not even saying he was wrong to do that. I'm just saying it's much less clearly good than ending apartheid was, it's much more controversial and remains the topic of legitimate disagreement. For the press to tell us he's a hero for doing something a lot of people legitimately think was a bad idea is the worse kind of prescriptive journalism: you will believe this, you will not have differing views.

[The Illusive Man]

Hey guys let’s play a game! It’s called watch as wing nuts try to praise Mandela while their followers suffer from cranial combustion! Communism!11!11!!! White genocide!!!11!!! Jerbs!!1!!! RINO!!11!!!

First up, Ted Cruz!

Nelson Mandela will live in history as an inspiration for defenders of liberty around the globe. He stood firm for decades on the principle that until all South Africans enjoyed equal liberties he would not leave prison himself, declaring in his autobiography, 'Freedom is indivisible; the chains on any one of my people were the chains on all of them, the chains on all of my people were the chains on me.' Because of his epic fight against injustice, an entire nation is now free.

We mourn his loss and offer our condolences to his family and the people of South Africa.

Second, Newt Gingrich!

President Nelson Mandela was one of the greatest leaders of our lifetime.

He emerged from 27 long years in prison with a wisdom, a compassion, and a commitment to helping other people that was astonishing. His life was a triumph of the human spirit.

When he visited the Congress I was deeply impressed with the charisma and the calmness with which he could dominate a room. It was as if the rest of us grew smaller and he grew stronger and more dominant the longer the meeting continued.

His thoughtful, disciplined, but friendly and warm personality made him a leader who could define the right policies and the right behaviors.

Nelson Mandela was truly the father of an integrated, democratic South Africa.

He will be an inspiration for generations to come and an historic leader worth studying for as long as people want to learn about greatness in serving others.

Callista and I extend our condolences and our prayers to the Mandela family and to the people of South Africa.

[Alehksunos]

First up, Ted Cruz!

Nelson Mandela will live in history as an inspiration for defenders of liberty around the globe. He stood firm for decades on the principle that until all South Africans enjoyed equal liberties he would not leave prison himself, declaring in his autobiography, 'Freedom is indivisible; the chains on any one of my people were the chains on all of them, the chains on all of my people were the chains on me.' Because of his epic fight against injustice, an entire nation is now free.

We mourn his loss and offer our condolences to his family and the people of South Africa.

Shut up, Ted. If Mandela were to know anything about you, he would look very, very lowly of you.

[Sylvana]

kind of but in south africa there was so little wealth distribution post aparteid you wonder if some forcible redistribution was required (SA has a GINI score of 61 one of the worst on earth

While you are correct that wealth is unevenly distributed right now, it is not such a clear cut problem as white vs black from the old apartheid era.

One of the most important things Mandela was part of was transitioning between the apartheid government to the ANC led government. However, he realized that the ANC and the very poorly educated black population of South Africa didn't know a thing about running a country. He kept many of the Apartheid leaders around in the government to assist in the transition period, and this was essential in the smooth running of the country and preventing another Zimbabwe.

As for the white criminals that got off free, it is once again much more complicated. While the government did oppress the blacks of the country, the ANC that replaced them were not exactly saints either, it could even be argued that they were worse. (Look up necklacing) The way to resolve this issue was the truth and reconciliation commission. Both sides came forth and provided testimony on what they did helping for many of the crimes of that era to come to light. As a result, many people of all sides were granted amnesty.

With regards to current wealth inequality it has more to do with the current government oppressing the poor blacks of South Africa far more than the apartheid government ever could. The government is through legislation trying to court too many groups. They are officially affiliated with the communist party and the unions. These communists and unions are supposedly looking out for the poor workers. However the ANC government and the union bosses love living it up in the luxuries of capitalism. Hence they try to put on a facade of caring for the workers, while sucking up to large capitalist organizations at the same time. This has led to an economic climate that does not really match the economic realities of the country. Which in turn has lead to a massive crunching slowdown of the economy. There is little to no economic growth, and with the abysmal and non existent education system unskilled workers are plentiful, and the skilled workers are pretty much non-existent. As such we have millions of adult people with barely a primary school education expecting high class office jobs, or at least the salary of a skilled job for menial work.

At the same time, rampant self enriching corruption that would make a republican blush, means that government service delivery is at an all time low. This has lead to many government services being mirrored in the private sector which the white middle class pay for to receive. This whole situation has resulted in the white middle class to be able to hold their own and make sure their children are looked after enough for them to eventually receive skilled decent jobs, while the failure of service delivery has robbed the poor blacks of even coming close to those opportunities. The worst part is that the country is rich. the taxes collected are more than enough to really help the poor, and turn things around. Unfortunately that money never gets where it is needed. A simple example is this. on the same day, the government put aside 400 Million for the ANC centennial party, and only 16 Million to train police detectives. Stories like this are very common. Where luxuries for the government officials lie in the hundreds of millions, while services are lucky to get even a million. This corruption is the leading cause of the inequalities of this nation, yes the whites get by and a decent amount of white privilege, and I admit that, but the problems facing the poor of South Africa are far greater than merely wealth distribution.

Lastly, I am glad Mandela is dead.
He has been a brain dead corpse for almost a year since his last severe heart attack. And before then he was a political gimmick dragged out and put on display like a animal in a zoo by the ANC big wigs every election. Being like that in ones later years, death can only be a release.

[kefkaownsall]

At least Gingrinch voted for sanctions

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

The comments are rich:

What am I missing here?...Up until an hour ago, I was on board with 'liking' posts such as yours, Newt. After seeing some disparaging comments aimed at Mandela on some other posts, I decided to do a little research. Now I'm wondering why any of us would be giving this man praise after learning of some of the atrocities/ torture he was directly involved in. Add to that he lined up with Communists, Socialists, even al-Gaddafi after the Pan-Am 103 bombing. Enlighten me here folks... -Thomas Hicks

He was elevated by the liberals and democrats in our country to a near god like status. He was a nothing unless you count the fact that he was a commie, liberal and committed some of the worst atrocities in the world. I compare him to Idi Amin -Webb White

He was an anti-white, pro-abortion, womanizing Marxist who truly hated America. This clenched-fist, murdering, gorilla warrior does not deserve respect from informed Americans. -Trish Baehr-Schaefer

You, along with all the Democrats and Republicans what's wrong with America's political system Newt.
THIS GUY WAS A COMMUNIST.

You're all so desperate for votes that you'd suck off Satan and say you're a Christian. All the while believing yourself. -Chad Garcia

Have we forgotten how the Mandella's necklaced their opposition with gasoline laced tires and then set them on fire? He was a terrorist who used bombs, that is why he was in jail. he was tied to the ANC communists. This re writing of history is sickening! Anyone doubting me can google all of this. -Timothy Dale Inwood

Oh sweet jesus:

The reality is Reagan ended apartheid when he peacefully eliminated the soviet thread. (Did he ever get a nobel peace price?) South Africa was a millitarily strong nuclear nation in the 80’s and I doubt would have unbanned/negotiated with the ANC, communist party, or freed Mandela had the soviet thread still existed. We had some of the best ground forces in the world. Mandela's Umkhonto We Sizwe really was no match. This is one aspect of it, but its more complicated. However, your comment made me regret voting for you in the primaries last year! It expressed the same level of ignorance exhibited on every TV channel tonight. I had hoped, as a student of history, someone like you would have known a little more about my beloved ex-country. -Ferdi Fourie

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

Moar:

Bill we're not racists. We don't support Mandela whom had his ANC kill innocent women and children by putting tires around their necks and setting them aflame, or putting bombs in children's toys to have children take them home to blow up their entire families. How does that make me racist is what I'm asking you?? How does that make any conservative racist, especially when looking at the last election map results, you'll see the blue band of Dixiecrats that still vote Democrat to today that wear white hoodies. Not to forget the Black Panther and the Brown Berets racist hate groups that also vote Democrat. If you are a liberal, you own those groups. Not conservatives. -David White

Uhhh...are you comparing our revolution to theirs? because we were fighting soldiers....They were killing innocent people...theres a big difference there...One is called war and one is called terrorism...I understand war is ugly - but torturing people, watching them burn to death because you hate them....thats not something you celebrate. -Nathaniel Grant

Peace??? Seriously? My daughter had to leave with her other white friends because the black-on-white violence has been increasing! Before she was forced by the institution which sent her there, to leave, to white women were brutally attacked, raped and them murdered! We whites weren't allowed to drive around after dark because of the potential threat to our lives. You're nuts! And a liar...probably part of Mandela's leftists. You too Mary...you need to learn the truth about Mandela. He was a monster.... -Kevin McDonald

Does that include all that that Communist had necktired? I bet that they would disagree with anyone! When someone disagrees with you you just hang two tires around them and light them on fire! OMG you cannot possibly be from South Africa when Nelson Mandela was doing these atrocities? I for one am NOT sad that this racist pig is DEAD & I hope he loves it HOT in HELL because that is exactly where he is going! -Nanci Alley

[mythbuster43]

First up, Ted Cruz!

Nelson Mandela will live in history as an inspiration for defenders of liberty around the globe. He stood firm for decades on the principle that until all South Africans enjoyed equal liberties he would not leave prison himself, declaring in his autobiography, 'Freedom is indivisible; the chains on any one of my people were the chains on all of them, the chains on all of my people were the chains on me.' Because of his epic fight against injustice, an entire nation is now free.

We mourn his loss and offer our condolences to his family and the people of South Africa.

Shut up, Ted. If Mandela were to know anything about you, he would look very, very lowly of you.

Can't imagine what Dave Blount's reaction to this on Moonbattery would be. The title of his screed would probably be Fake Conservative Ted Cruz Praises Socialist Marxist N****r Thug Nelson Mandela and the rest of the screed would be about how Cruz has revealed himself to be a George Soros backed moonbat communist who hates white people or something.

[Sylvana]

To be fair to those comments, they are not entirely wrong.
Mandela and the ANC were allied with the Communists. They were terrorists and they did kill and torture innocent people.

Mandela specifically was involved in bombings that resulted in him being sent to prison. While he was in prison was when the violence really picked up. It was getting worse and worse and was at its peak in 1993. This was an important tipping point that was looking like it was going to drown the entire country in a sea of genocidal blood. However because Mandela and De Klerk negotiated a peaceful transition and election, a massive and bloody civil war was averted.

No one denies that he did reprehensible thing in his past, but the peace he brought to South Africa was monumental. He most definitely saved more lives than he killed.