Author Topic: WND vs Google  (Read 9695 times)

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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2014, 08:17:59 am »
I...you're serious, aren't you?  You're not taking the piss?  This isn't just some odd thought experiment in Bizarro World?  I need some more time to formulate a proper response...that takes my fuckin breath away.
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Offline OmniLiquid

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2014, 11:21:54 am »
Wait wait wait...hold the effin phone here.  Advertizing is now bribery?  Of whom, and how?  How is paying someone to essentially play "Pimp My Product" bribery?

What is bribery and why don't we like it?

Okay, so the legal definition of bribery is: "He offers, confers or agrees to confer any thing of value upon a public servant with the intent that the public servant's vote, opinion, judgment, exercise of discretion or other action in his official capacity will thereby be corruptly influenced;..."

(This is a definition applying only to public servants; obviously a bribe offered to a person who is not a public servant remains a bribe).

What are the elements? 1) Money offered, 2) in order for a person to exercise their power (et al) in a manner they would not otherwise, 3) improperly. What do we mean by improperly? Dishonestly. Why is it illegal? Bribery increases transaction costs, reduces the effectiveness and responsiveness of the bribed organisation, undermines public accountability, ect.

Okay, what is advertising? 1) Money offered, 2) in order for a person or corporation to exercise their "opinion, judgement, exercise of discretion", 3) in a dishonest and improper fashion. A person in an ad is essentially endorsing a product does not do so honestly, because it is a good product, but in proportion to the amount of money that corporation has paid them. The commercial station does not run advertisements because it thinks the product is good, but because it has been paid to do so. In a similar way, a corrupt judge does not let XYZ off murder because he thinks him innocent, but because he has been paid.

Now, you could argue that there is less harm caused by this sort of bribery than through normal corruption. You could argue it, but you'd be wrong. The sole purpose of advertising is to distort market forces, and to clog up the natural price and information signals of capitalism. If we treated the bribery by commercial companies of television companies they way we treat their bribery of, say, judges virtually everything would work better.

Literally the only thing commercials do is negative. They should not exist.

Advertising also informs consumers of what products exist. That is not negative.

As far as it being bribery, by your definition bribery happens all the time. We bribe companies to give us products. They bribe us to give them money. I imagine you'd say those are proper forms of inducement, but consider it further. Without Target (for example) offering me products, I am not going to exercise the action of giving them money. If I do not give Target money, they (I assume) are not inclined to exercise the action of giving me products. Advertising works the same way. A company gives somebody money, and that somebody says things about the product. The only difference is that people tend to be more inclined to talk about products and companies before being offered compensation than they are to give money and products to others. If advertising is a violation of somebody's free speech, then capitalism is a violation of freedom to give money and products. If advertising is bribery, then trade is mutual bribery.

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How are people going to be "more informed" about products if you remove one of the simplest ways to convey information about effing products?

Far more informed. The purpose of advertising is to reduce the level of information available to people, or to encourage them to ignore it. If you want people to be informed about products, the best way to do so is to found some sort of independent agency that can rate products by quality. This would be then put on the soap or whatever next to the price tag.

You might also have a TV show to educate people about available products. The difference between this, of course, is that these would be honest, which advertising is by definition not.
I don't know about everyone else, but I don't have much inclination to go out of my way to find out about every new product outside of the areas I already have awareness of.

Also, the things said in advertisements are usually biased, but we do already have laws against dishonest advertising and advertising that is not disclosed to be advertising.
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Ya see, the internet is a haven of knowledge, and people don't like having shit forced on to them.  Net Nanny programs don't hold up to anyone with a few hours and Google.  Unless you plan on arresting anyone who bypasses your shitty Nannyware, in which case, why not just cut out the middle man and move to fucking China?

Why would anyone want to watch advertising?
I've noticed that since I no longer watch TV with advertising, I often have no idea what movies are coming out. It's something I do somewhat miss. I could look up the information but it's much more convenient to be informed as I use the break to grab a sandwich or whatever.

More to the point, though, people do not like being forced by law to have certain software installed at all. People like censorship even less. As soon as ads are banned, people will find ways to get around it not because they miss ads so much, but because they dislike censorship.

Offline rookie

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2014, 01:46:20 pm »
Fred, prison as a consequence for what? Who went to prison and for what?
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Offline Askold

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2014, 02:26:43 pm »
You know Freddy, what you are proposing now has been experimented on a smaller scale. Finland for example has banned all forms of advertising on tobacco products, the moral guardians go as far as complaining about any smoking in movies and tv, claiming that product placement of tobacco should also be banned as it is a form of advertisement.

The funniest bit is that tobacco can't be seen in shops anymore. I literally mean that it is illegal for shops to have tobacco packages visible. Or even any pictures of them.

Instead, by the counter there is a large board with numbered buttons and each number corresponds to a certain tobacco product. If you want to know which is which you have to ask for a leaflet which lists the brands and tells what button to push. (Or if you know what brand you want you can ask the cashier and they tell you the number.)

Do you know what the result is? People are less aware about different tobacco brands. The amount of smokers has not gone down noticeably but smaller brands, more obscure have almost no chance to compete with the big ones. Either they pick something by random or they pick one of the popular ones since they can't get any advertisement or reviews that would tell about the available products. Furthermore since even asking for the leaflet would mean that you will be holding up the line you just have to pick a brand and hope that you like it. If you don't you have another socially awkward moment at the shop if you try to choose another brand. Or ask word of mouth for hints on what brands are good.

So the lack of advertisement has meant that people are less informed about the products. It also means that the only way for products to compete is with their prize. And if you have to choose between product A and B where B is twice as expensive but you don't know anything about either, prize is pretty much the only thing that you can base your choice on. Which has further meant that brands like Marlboro and LM which had an established customer base are the only ones thriving.


There are plans to do the same with alcohols...
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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2014, 06:46:02 pm »
Ever notice how the far right and the far left don't really look all that different when you get right down too it? Neither thinks that the common man has the intelligence to think for himself and needs to have the elite lead him around by the nose even if it means enacting very draconian laws and sharply curtailing freedom to do it.




Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2014, 07:12:15 pm »
I've noticed that too.  The political spectrum isn't a line, it's a circle.

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2014, 07:52:28 pm »
Wait wait wait...hold the effin phone here.  Advertizing is now bribery?  Of whom, and how?  How is paying someone to essentially play "Pimp My Product" bribery?

What is bribery and why don't we like it?

Okay, so the legal definition of bribery is: "He offers, confers or agrees to confer any thing of value upon a public servant with the intent that the public servant's vote, opinion, judgment, exercise of discretion or other action in his official capacity will thereby be corruptly influenced;..."

(This is a definition applying only to public servants; obviously a bribe offered to a person who is not a public servant remains a bribe).

What are the elements? 1) Money offered, 2) in order for a person to exercise their power (et al) in a manner they would not otherwise, 3) improperly. What do we mean by improperly? Dishonestly. Why is it illegal? Bribery increases transaction costs, reduces the effectiveness and responsiveness of the bribed organisation, undermines public accountability, ect.

Okay, what is advertising? 1) Money offered, 2) in order for a person or corporation to exercise their "opinion, judgement, exercise of discretion", 3) in a dishonest and improper fashion. A person in an ad is essentially endorsing a product does not do so honestly, because it is a good product, but in proportion to the amount of money that corporation has paid them. The commercial station does not run advertisements because it thinks the product is good, but because it has been paid to do so. In a similar way, a corrupt judge does not let XYZ off murder because he thinks him innocent, but because he has been paid.

Now, you could argue that there is less harm caused by this sort of bribery than through normal corruption. You could argue it, but you'd be wrong. The sole purpose of advertising is to distort market forces, and to clog up the natural price and information signals of capitalism. If we treated the bribery by commercial companies of television companies they way we treat their bribery of, say, judges virtually everything would work better.

Literally the only thing commercials do is negative. They should not exist.

Advertising also informs consumers of what products exist. That is not negative.

So does a catalogue, except cheaper, more completely and honestly. Advertising only tells you about the products that are advertised, and in proportion to their advertisement. It is also totally inaccurate about the content of those products. A catalogue is not.

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As far as it being bribery, by your definition bribery happens all the time. We bribe companies to give us products.

Element 3. Improperly. It is not dishonest for a store to sell you a cabbage in return for compensation. That is not a dishonest use of its power - in fact, that is the honest use of its power. It would be dishonest to ask for an outrageously disproportionate amount of money in return for a product, which is why we have laws against that.

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If advertising is a violation of somebody's free speech,

That's the secondary effect of advertising, not the primary one. Advertising first subverts the market process and then second places all advertising-reliant industry under the control of the major advertisers. Which is why you don't see socialist newspapers anymore - nobody will advertise in them. Why would a corporation finance a political movement dedicated to destroying it?

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I don't know about everyone else, but I don't have much inclination to go out of my way to find out about every new product outside of the areas I already have awareness of.

Then it's a wash. You can not find out about products and buy at random (or the cheapest, probably) whether or not advertising exists.

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Also, the things said in advertisements are usually biased, but we do already have laws against dishonest advertising and advertising that is not disclosed to be advertising.

You're not allowed to say that your ten-inch spanner is twelve inches long, but you can say that it's the best hammer on Earth. if you get good at it, people even believe you - despite the fact that it is a lie.

Even worse, these laws are routinely violated with no punishment.

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I've noticed that since I no longer watch TV with advertising, I often have no idea what movies are coming out. It's something I do somewhat miss. I could look up the information but it's much more convenient to be informed as I use the break to grab a sandwich or whatever.

Okay, so maybe we have an honest show on TV during the breaks in programming to tell you what is in the movies.

Fred, prison as a consequence for what? Who went to prison and for what?

Criticising a corporation. Why shouldn't the "consequence" of criticising a corporation include government torture?

The funniest bit is that tobacco can't be seen in shops anymore. I literally mean that it is illegal for shops to have tobacco packages visible. Or even any pictures of them.

Australia has similar-ish policy. We have plain packaging - which is a bit of a misnomer, it isn't plain, it's actually pretty horrific, it has pictures of fucked up lungs and what have you, the consequences of long-term smoking. The idea is to reduce consumption firstly by reducing the opportunity to market the product - cigarettes - and secondly by reminding everyone what it does. It appears to be working.

One of the interesting things about banning cigarette advertising: in the 90s, when this kinda started, tobacco profits exploded. Went absolutely through the roof. Almost as if they were wasting their money. To big corporations, advertising is an arms race - if anyone falls behind, that individual company suffers. But, in the aggregate, everyone is worse off for wasting money on advertising.

Anyway, the cigarette problem is not the problem with advertising in the aggregate. The point of banning advertising isn't to reduce the sale of product - in fact, that would be a negative consequence if it happened, which would have to be fixed through government policy. The point of banning advertising is to make people buy the best product or the cheapest product not the biggest product.

You talk about an end to advertising reducing the opportunity of small businesses to advertise their goods. Small business does not have this opportunity. A lot of advertising has a disproportionate effect compared to a small amount of advertising. A million dollars worth of ads is worth more than a million times more than one dollar worth of ads. It is also true that start-up companies simply do not have access to the revenue needed for advertising. This disproportion is one of the real problems to do with advertising.

Here's how an efficient market works in theory. Consumers purchase either the cheapest or the best product. This drives inefficient business out and forces those to survive to cut costs in order to attract consumers. Because the cheapest good is the most likely to sell, the market will eventually reach equilibrium. This process also drives innovation - a new business with a better process can produce better quality goods and therefore sell, even if in direct competition with long-standing corporations.

What happens if people do not buy the cheapest product? What happens if consumers buy the product that is best advertised? The whole thing falls apart. The innovative new companies are kept out by old inefficient, heavily advertised, companies. Bad.

Ever notice how the far right and the far left don't really look all that different when you get right down too it? Neither thinks that the common man has the intelligence to think for himself and needs to have the elite lead him around by the nose even if it means enacting very draconian laws and sharply curtailing freedom to do it.

There are, I think, two possibilities. 1) Advertising is pure waste, and has no effect, positive or negative. 2) Advertising does have an effect - an entirely negative effect. If you don't think advertising has an effect on consumer behaviour - and you're objectively wrong - then you think it doesn't work and should be banned.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 08:47:41 pm by Lt. Fred »
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

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Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2014, 09:52:55 pm »
Ever notice how the far right and the far left don't really look all that different when you get right down too it? Neither thinks that the common man has the intelligence to think for himself and needs to have the elite lead him around by the nose even if it means enacting very draconian laws and sharply curtailing freedom to do it.

There are, I think, two possibilities. 1) Advertising is pure waste, and has no effect, positive or negative. 2) Advertising does have an effect - an entirely negative effect. If you don't think advertising has an effect on consumer behaviour - and you're objectively wrong - then you think it doesn't work and should be banned.

I love your arrogance. Really, I do.

You're smart enough to know when you're getting played but the great unwashed masses aren't and need to be protected from themselves. At least the far right uses 'what about the children?' as a justification a lot of the time but you just assume everyone is an idiot.
 
The only advertisers who get my money because of their ad are the ones who manage to my attention and either humor me or intrigue me enough to decide to give them a shot. Even then, I won't part with any significant amount of money without actually looking into what it is I'm getting. I'm one of the unwashed masses, and I'm hardly alone in the way I think. We all see ads everyday, and we have all gotten very good at detecting the bullshit.
 
Your solution is to immediately coddle the masses and hide their eyes from the big bad world like you're some kind of overprotective parent. Really what you should be doing is figuring the best way teach them so that they can think and stand up for themselves.

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2014, 03:43:03 am »
Ever notice how the far right and the far left don't really look all that different when you get right down too it? Neither thinks that the common man has the intelligence to think for himself and needs to have the elite lead him around by the nose even if it means enacting very draconian laws and sharply curtailing freedom to do it.

There are, I think, two possibilities. 1) Advertising is pure waste, and has no effect, positive or negative. 2) Advertising does have an effect - an entirely negative effect. If you don't think advertising has an effect on consumer behaviour - and you're objectively wrong - then you think it doesn't work and should be banned.

I love your arrogance. Really, I do.

It's entirely immaterial whether or not you feel that it is arrogant to suggest that people can be fooled; it is simply fact. Or maybe not - make a counter argument. I think it's fairly routine for people to purchase the better-advertised product. Take the Big Ad (Carlton Draught Big Ad). Carlton Draught neither improved in quality nor reduced in price, nonetheless people purchased it more often after that ad. Why? Because they were scammed. That is the only role of advertising, it's only unique purpose.

You also refuse to acknowledge the obvious point that regardless of which way it goes, someone is screwing up here. Either advertising works, and tricks people into buying something that should not purchase - or every corporation in the world is systematically wasting money in the same way always forever. Are you really smarter than every CEO, manager, media analyst and advertising boss ever?

Or can we have an argument without meaningless ad hominem attacks? Thanks.

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Your solution is to immediately coddle the masses and hide their eyes from the big bad world like you're some kind of overprotective parent. Really what you should be doing is figuring the best way teach them so that they can think and stand up for themselves.

Sure. In a similar way, we can totally ban all prohibitions of lying in advertising, surely? Surely we can end all limits on corporate investment in politics, too - if a politician in a bought-and-paid corporate stooge, surely we'll somehow realise?

Or perhaps we can look at the world as it actually exists.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2014, 09:37:49 am »
Sooooooo, either consumers get some information about products, or force them to live in a nanny state.  And don't bullshit me about how advertizing has "zero net impact" in the level of information a consumer has at their disposal.

Actually, you know what?  Fuck this, I got two words: PROVE IT.  Prove what you're saying.  Prove that advertizing has no impact, that its totally useless dross in our airwaves and our internets.  I want some actual, verifiable, scientific evidence pointing to your conclusion, not just idle navel-gazing and quasi-intellectual posturing.

TL;DR: STUDIES, MOTHERFUCKER!  DO YOU HAVE THEM?
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Offline rookie

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2014, 10:30:58 am »
Oh. Ok, Fred. Gotcha. Well, the U.S. constitution as it is right now (and I know how you feel about constitutions bit it's what we have here) says that's illegal. Who went to prison in the U.S. for criticizing a corporation? Please tell us who in the United States went to prison for the started reason of criticizing a corporation.

« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 10:49:23 am by rookie »
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2014, 06:06:13 pm »
Sooooooo, either consumers get some information about products, or force them to live in a nanny state.  And don't bullshit me about how advertizing has "zero net impact" in the level of information a consumer has at their disposal.

Advertising doesn't have zero impact on the amount of information people have at their disposal, it has a negative impact. That is it's purpose. Instead of buying the cheapest or best product, you buy the product produced by the biggest company. Very bad.

You're right in saying that advertising will provide a partial list of products available to be sold. This is positive. A catalogue provides a full list, cheaper, without any of the associated market distortions and other drawbacks. Most supermarkets will make catalogues available to those who want them. If you want even more than that, well maybe we put a show on TV or something.

If you're concerned about aggregate demand - and that implies that advertising is encouraging people to wastefully buy things they don't need - the government can happily stimulate the economy. The extra resources no longer wasted scamming people can be put to good use, instead of bad. It's this opportunity cost that is the real killer here. Do you know how much the advertising industry costs? Hundreds of billions of dollars, tens of trillions of hours of talented people's work, millions of hours wasting people's time. That's a vast cost for something that has nothing- or less than nothing - to show for it.

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Prove that advertizing has no impact, that its totally useless dross in our airwaves and our internets.

Please read my posts. I don't believe this. I'm suggesting that, if you do, that makes it a waste of money. If you don't, it's actively harmful.

Oh. Ok, Fred. Gotcha. Well, the U.S. constitution as it is right now (and I know how you feel about constitutions bit it's what we have here) says that's illegal. Who went to prison in the U.S. for criticizing a corporation? Please tell us who in the United States went to prison for the started reason of criticizing a corporation.

Okay, so we agree that there ought to be limits to the degree to the "consequences" for speech. Surely it's reasonable to suggest that one limit ought to be not losing your job?
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2014, 07:26:42 pm »
I think you misunderstand Fred, I don't think you are arrogant for thinking people can be fooled, I think you are arrogant for wanting to protect those fools by eliminating basic rights and freedoms.

I think you are arrogant for wanting to use the nuclear option because regulations aren't working to your satisfaction.

I think you are arrogant because you are certain the only reason for advertizing is to lie and deceive rather than an attempt to persuade. While you can certainly persuade with lies and deception, you can also persuade with facts and honesty along with many other techniques.

Offline rookie

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2014, 11:22:43 pm »
Depends. Most places I've worked for had me sign something saying, warning?, if I said anything negative about the company on social media it could be grounds for termination. Also being overly rude to customers. And  insubordination often enough isn't hoping to do your careers.
Funny thing about rights that. See, I have theoption to waive my right to free speech. Just because I can criticize the company I work for without going to jail, I can decide it's not in my best interest to do so. If I have that big a problem with the company I have the freedom to find another job and blast away.
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Quote from: davedan board=pg thread=6573 post=218058 time=1286247542
I'll stop eating beef lamb and pork the same day they start letting me eat vegetarians.

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2014, 11:57:25 pm »
The hell is going on here?