Author Topic: WND vs Google  (Read 9694 times)

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Offline Cerim Treascair

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2014, 01:15:19 am »
The hell is going on here?

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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2014, 09:08:07 am »
I have no idea.  My brain's currently trying to make sense out of it, but I've been focusing on other things that don't induce headaches.
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Offline rookie

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2014, 10:51:16 am »
The hell is going on here?
Way back, like 4 pages ago, Google dropped WND for making racist statements. Lt. Fred said advertising should be illegal. One by one the forum said some version of "dafaq?" So we have 4 pages of him trying to defend his position.
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Offline ironbite

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2014, 12:24:38 pm »
Fairly well I might add.

Ironbite-at least from the bits I've seen quoted.

Offline rookie

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2014, 12:27:54 pm »
Fairly well I might add.

Ironbite-at least from the bits I've seen quoted.
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Offline ironbite

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2014, 12:31:19 pm »
He's totally in the wrong here but he's got a lot of points.

Ironbite-but that's Fred in a nutshell.

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2014, 04:07:42 pm »
Sooooooo, either consumers get some information about products, or force them to live in a nanny state.  And don't bullshit me about how advertizing has "zero net impact" in the level of information a consumer has at their disposal.

Advertising doesn't have zero impact on the amount of information people have at their disposal, it has a negative impact. That is it's purpose. Instead of buying the cheapest or best product, you buy the product produced by the biggest company. Very bad.

If you ban traditional forms of advertisement, big companies are guaranteed to find non-traditional ones. Pay their employees to spread their product via word of mouth, or stage some weird stunt that gets into the news, or whatever. It's hard to craft a law that fully covers "letting people know that you exist" without unreasonable limits on what companies can do.

And it will almost certainly be big companies who can afford to do these not-technically-advertising things, which will be even worse for smaller companies. Sure, they can get into the catalogue, but given how people are there will be plenty who don't exhaustively check catalogues and just go with whatever they already know exists (which is partially the reason advertising works nowadays).

Not to mention, these would be regulations you are imposing on a world where advertising has already existed and plenty of brand names are already well-known. If tomorrow Coca-Cola can't put ads on TV anymore, people will still rememeber it exists and keep buying it, and years later people who never saw ads will still know Coca-Cola is a thing because all their friends and family drink it. Meanwhile, any new company that wants to compete can't put ads on TV, so they only people who know they are there are those who bother to regularly search the catalogue for new brands. I can't imagine that will be a sizeable proportion of the population.


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Do you know how much the advertising industry costs? Hundreds of billions of dollars, tens of trillions of hours of talented people's work, millions of hours wasting people's time. That's a vast cost for something that has nothing- or less than nothing - to show for it.

Advertising provides a reliable way to monetise a million different things, from Google to various forms of media to a bunch of small websites that produce decent content but can't make enough off selling t-shirts. Any alternative to that would involve complex government bureaucracies that would be a bitch to implement and deal with, thereby killing a bunch of possibly profitable and creative endeavours.

I'm not gonna pretend that advertising is the most efficient thing or whatever, but I think it's worth taking a moment to appreciate that society has evolved a way to reward people simply for creating things that other people want to see, and it works relatively well without needing government interference*.

*Don't assume I'm one of them "government fucks everything up, let's have private corporations run shit from now on" types, because I'm not. Some things should be run by the government. I can't see why this is one of them.
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Offline Askold

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2014, 12:27:53 am »
Sooooooo, either consumers get some information about products, or force them to live in a nanny state.  And don't bullshit me about how advertizing has "zero net impact" in the level of information a consumer has at their disposal.

Advertising doesn't have zero impact on the amount of information people have at their disposal, it has a negative impact. That is it's purpose. Instead of buying the cheapest or best product, you buy the product produced by the biggest company. Very bad.

If you ban traditional forms of advertisement, big companies are guaranteed to find non-traditional ones. Pay their employees to spread their product via word of mouth, or stage some weird stunt that gets into the news, or whatever. It's hard to craft a law that fully covers "letting people know that you exist" without unreasonable limits on what companies can do.

How about this: they bribe or otherwise influence the shops and as a result get premium shelf space while competitor products are either hidden or not taken into the store at all.

(Just a while ago something like that was uncovered in Finland. Though in that scenario it was the biggest stores in  our country that demanded money from food suppliers in order to place their products on shelves. Which in turn means that companies had to raise their prizes in order to be able to pay the ransom which may be one of the reasons why the prize of food is uncharacteristically high in Finland.)
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #53 on: March 09, 2014, 04:32:30 am »
I think you misunderstand Fred, I don't think you are arrogant for thinking people can be fooled, I think you are arrogant for wanting to protect those fools by eliminating basic rights and freedoms.

Well, I am sorry, but I think that trying to help someone out is legitimate. I know that's quite controversial and so on, but I do.

That's said, I'm not sure that the right to lie is such a vital right. It is, after all, routinely violated by the federal government - if you lie about someone else, they can sue you. You're also obliged to be imaginatively dishonest when selling a product. You can't be direct, it has to be sneaky. There are other prohibitions on the important right to lie, too.

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I think you are arrogant for wanting to use the nuclear option because regulations aren't working to your satisfaction.

They cannot and never will work. Advertising by definition is without value. Literally nothing it does of use cannot be done a better way than through what is essentially bribery. Paying a person to express a point of view is inherently dishonest.

Depends. Most places I've worked for had me sign something saying, warning?, if I said anything negative about the company on social media it could be grounds for termination. Also being overly rude to customers. And  insubordination often enough isn't hoping to do your careers.

That's all very well and good. I agree that if your job requires you to speak and you screw it up you should face losing your job. However, companies can also fire you for all sorts of insubordination. This can often infringe on privacy. You should not face losing your job for making a joke about your boss. That is a clear violation of your right to free speech, even though you don't face jail.

If you ban traditional forms of advertisement, big companies are guaranteed to find non-traditional ones. Pay their employees to spread their product via word of mouth, or stage some weird stunt that gets into the news, or whatever. It's hard to craft a law that fully covers "letting people know that you exist" without unreasonable limits on what companies can do.

I feel like if these were effective they'd be used. Again, I'm not sure what to do with the PR industry.

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Sure, they can get into the catalogue, but given how people are there will be plenty who don't exhaustively check catalogues and just go with whatever they already know exists (which is partially the reason advertising works nowadays).

Not all goods and services are advertised at all. How do these industries currently work? Let's go with a mixture of that model and publicly-funded product journalism. If you don't care, you'll purchase the cheapest and if you want more details they are available. The modest amount of in-elasticity caused by advertising will vanish over the medium-run, leaving a more efficient market.

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Quote
Do you know how much the advertising industry costs? Hundreds of billions of dollars, tens of trillions of hours of talented people's work, millions of hours wasting people's time. That's a vast cost for something that has nothing- or less than nothing - to show for it.

Advertising provides a reliable way to monetise a million different things, from Google to various forms of media to a bunch of small websites that produce decent content but can't make enough off selling t-shirts. Any alternative to that would involve complex government bureaucracies that would be a bitch to implement and deal with, thereby killing a bunch of possibly profitable and creative endeavours.

Advertising companies are complex bureaucracies, far more complex and inefficient than any government ministry or department (for instance: Medicare is far more efficient than private insurers).

I do admit that I don't have a perfect alternative business model - though some alternatives exist (CNN!). This is not to say that they are not conceivably possible, just that, obviously, evolution and adaptation would happen. Obviously, all these industries were funded before advertising came to exist in the ~1920s. We fund a number of industries in this way - the police force, for instance. I see no reason why the press, the music industry and so on would be unfundable either through some private means like point-of-use (which they're trying anyway by the way) or as a public good.

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I'm not gonna pretend that advertising is the most efficient thing or whatever, but I think it's worth taking a moment to appreciate that society has evolved a way to reward people simply for creating things that other people want to see, and it works relatively well without needing government interference*.

It doesn't work at all. Advertising causes crippling externalities, not limited to market distortion, and must always do so by its nature.
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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2014, 12:04:46 pm »
I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony too Fred, but it's never going to happen. There are always going to be winners and loosers in the game of life. Unfortunately, by attempting to redress the balance this way you create a massive governmental intrusion on the lives of everybody which in my opinion is wrong.  The reason I feel this is wrong is that the more power is consolidated the more it opens itself up for abuse. Human nature cannot be trusted no matter how good the intentions; we have seen dictators rise from both ends of the political spectrum on multiple occasions. In fact, this type of tool is exactly what you see in dictatorships. A couple tweaks here and there and suddenly all political dissent evaporates because it is propaganda -- a form of advertizing. News is censored because they are being 'paid to lie' as you put it any time something critical of the government is aired/printed/whatevered.

Imagine the kind of power you are talking about in the hands of someone like Dick Cheney and tell me it would be a good idea.

This isn't a slippery slope argument. This is pointing out a fundamental structural design flaw that leaves a country much more open to abuse because of it. It might never be exploited, but why take the risk when there are good alternatives available that don't open themselves up for abuse? Banning ads targeted at children, an agency with some teeth to ensure that advertisers follow the rules, and improving consumer education via school programs etc. would go a long way to minimizing exploitation.

Offline rookie

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2014, 12:11:14 pm »
Fred, why were we talking about getting fired as a result of free speech? The first amendment covers actions by the government. So while I may get fired for yelling at my boss, I'm not going to jail. I'm not getting fined.
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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2014, 03:08:23 pm »
There's a reason I drew a parallel with China; it wasn't just semi-comedic hyperbole.  What you're talking about, Fred, is a direct line to a very powerful, very corrupt police state, if not an outright dictatorship.  Like Mojo said, its not a slippery slope; this has historical precedent.  Power corrupts, and the more power you give to someone (or a body of people), the more potential there is for corruption.  Especially so in a place like the US, where our head of state changes once every 8 years, at most, and that's not taking into account Congressional elections and Supreme Court appointments.

The larger your sample size, the more likely you're going to encounter corrupt individuals.  With our current government, do you really think they're trustworthy enough to handle that kind of power?  After all the heinous shit they've done?  The dirty, back-door dealing with military juntas and drug lords, letting the CIA spy on us with impunity, summarily sentencing people to death by drone strike without a trial, and so much fucking more?  If you fucking trust them, then you my friend, live in a bloody delusional fairy tale world.

Again, as Mojo said, human nature, in this instance, should not be trusted.
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: WND vs Google
« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2014, 08:17:09 pm »
If you ban traditional forms of advertisement, big companies are guaranteed to find non-traditional ones. Pay their employees to spread their product via word of mouth, or stage some weird stunt that gets into the news, or whatever. It's hard to craft a law that fully covers "letting people know that you exist" without unreasonable limits on what companies can do.

I feel like if these were effective they'd be used.

Not if they are less effective than traditional methods, but more effective than doing nothing.

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Sure, they can get into the catalogue, but given how people are there will be plenty who don't exhaustively check catalogues and just go with whatever they already know exists (which is partially the reason advertising works nowadays).

Not all goods and services are advertised at all. How do these industries currently work? Let's go with a mixture of that model and publicly-funded product journalism. If you don't care, you'll purchase the cheapest and if you want more details they are available. The modest amount of in-elasticity caused by advertising will vanish over the medium-run, leaving a more efficient market.

Different industries require different methods. But I'll grant you the point, I can see publicly-funded product journalism as an alternative. (which is to say, I am genuinely uncertain as to whether that would work better or worse and can't think of any quick way to find out)

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Advertising provides a reliable way to monetise a million different things, from Google to various forms of media to a bunch of small websites that produce decent content but can't make enough off selling t-shirts. Any alternative to that would involve complex government bureaucracies that would be a bitch to implement and deal with, thereby killing a bunch of possibly profitable and creative endeavours.

Advertising companies are complex bureaucracies, far more complex and inefficient than any government ministry or department (for instance: Medicare is far more efficient than private insurers).

Any evidence that the requirements of healthcare are in any way analogous to those of advertising would be nice, or that advertising bureaucracy is more complex than government ones.

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I do admit that I don't have a perfect alternative business model - though some alternatives exist (CNN!). This is not to say that they are not conceivably possible, just that, obviously, evolution and adaptation would happen. Obviously, all these industries were funded before advertising came to exist in the ~1920s.

You do recall that two of my examples were "Google" and "small websites", right? Those industries definitely didn't exist in the 1920s. Television, the other obvious example, was born in the late 1920s.

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I'm not gonna pretend that advertising is the most efficient thing or whatever, but I think it's worth taking a moment to appreciate that society has evolved a way to reward people simply for creating things that other people want to see, and it works relatively well without needing government interference*.

It doesn't work at all. Advertising causes crippling externalities, not limited to market distortion, and must always do so by its nature.

Media does in fact get financed by advertising. It does, in fact, work. Whether it could be better is a different question, and it's hard to say whether the alternative would be better or worse when your proposals for alternatives are as vague as they are.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 08:19:56 pm by Sigmaleph »
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