Gunmen attack offices of French satirical magazine

[Sigmaleph]

I am not saying that the victims of this attack "had it coming" or that their deaths were justified. What I am saying is that we have to draw the line between grieving loss and valorizing a racist publication that reinforces a political climate hostile to Muslims and other minority groups in France. There's no right side here, just a bunch of dead people, their families, and living people who will have to deal with the oncoming backlash.

Well, one side was significantly less wrong than the other, that's for sure.

Can't really comment on the whole racism thing. I don't speak French or understand anything about French culture, and both racism and humour are very culture-dependent.


But back to the main topic. I don't know if the shooters had "turn non-Muslims against Muslims, thus further polarizing society and increasing the number of Muslim extremists" as an explicit goal, but it certainly seems like the succeeded. And it seems the only antidote to that is to not frame them as "Muslim terrorists" but rather "anti-free speech extremists".

[Askold]

I am not saying that the victims of this attack "had it coming" or that their deaths were justified. What I am saying is that we have to draw the line between grieving loss and valorizing a racist publication that reinforces a political climate hostile to Muslims and other minority groups in France. There's no right side here, just a bunch of dead people, their families, and living people who will have to deal with the oncoming backlash.

Ahem... This is not a zero sum game.

You can disagree with every single group involved with this or simply disagree with some of them to varying degrees.

Did the magazine make racist and islamophobic cartoons? Some people seem to think so and they certainly did their best at insulting everyone and everything equally, because they thought that ALL the sacred cows deserve a kick in the name of the freedom of speech.

Did the terrorist murder these people? Yes. Did they have the right to be angry when their religion was mocked? Yes, but that does not give them a right to murder people.

Are moderate muslims getting blamed for this? Yes, islamophobes are having a great time right now. Should moderate muslims declare that they do not support these acts of terrorism? Yes and many already have done so, particularly in France.

Are the moderate muslims "the greatest victims" of this attack? No... I think the magazine employees and their families have suffered more, but the islamophobes are certainly using this to attack all the muslims.

[SCarpelan]

But back to the main topic. I don't know if the shooters had "turn non-Muslims against Muslims, thus further polarizing society and increasing the number of Muslim extremists" as an explicit goal, but it certainly seems like the succeeded. And it seems the only antidote to that is to not frame them as "Muslim terrorists" but rather "anti-free speech extremists".

Since no organization has yet taken credit for the murders I'm also starting to think that it might not have been an explicit motivation of the shooters. It still is a major strategy of Muslim terrorist organizations and anyone who buys into their propaganda and commits terrorist acts is serving this strategy.

"Anti-free speech extremists" is too much of a mouthful and people won't use it since it sounds too much like a PC term to hide facts (despite being factual). I prefer calling them just "terrorists".

Are the moderate muslims "the greatest victims" of this attack?

Has someone made this claim? I must have missed it. I've seen people point out elsewhere that the ones who suffer most from the extremist violence in general are other Muslims which is an accurate claim.

[guizonde]

But back to the main topic. I don't know if the shooters had "turn non-Muslims against Muslims, thus further polarizing society and increasing the number of Muslim extremists" as an explicit goal, but it certainly seems like the succeeded. And it seems the only antidote to that is to not frame them as "Muslim terrorists" but rather "anti-free speech extremists".

Since no organization has yet taken credit for the murders I'm also starting to think that it might not have been an explicit motivation of the shooters. It still is a major strategy of Muslim terrorist organizations and anyone who buys into their propaganda and commits terrorist acts is serving this strategy.

actually, the shooters said they did it in the name of al qaeda in yemen. don't ask. most likely a couple of indoctrinated loons that thought they were doing something that terrorist bigwigs would approve of.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

Someone misses their Spanish Inquisition.

Re: the deprogramming thing. Is there any evidence that it actually works?

Also I can totally see it being called.psychological torture if someone didn't want to be deprogrammed and put up resistance.

[guizonde]

Someone misses their Spanish Inquisition.

Re: the deprogramming thing. Is there any evidence that it actually works?

Also I can totally see it being called.psychological torture if someone didn't want to be deprogrammed and put up resistance.

it's about as effective as brainwashing, being a sort of reverse brainwashing. as for psychological torture, it does hurt the psyche. going on 5 years back, i was in a very abusive relationship with a jehova's witness. she used both physical and psychological torture to try and indoctrinate me into converting. it didn't work, but only because i cannot physically believe in god. needless to say, it was unpleasant, and i got some light deprogramming done by a therapist to get rid of the brainwashing. still, it's probably the most humane way to kill a corrupted ideal, even if "humane" is not exactly an appropriate term.

[Ironchew]

Someone misses their Spanish Inquisition.

Re: the deprogramming thing. Is there any evidence that it actually works?

Also I can totally see it being called.psychological torture if someone didn't want to be deprogrammed and put up resistance.

it's about as effective as brainwashing, being a sort of reverse brainwashing. as for psychological torture, it does hurt the psyche. going on 5 years back, i was in a very abusive relationship with a jehova's witness. she used both physical and psychological torture to try and indoctrinate me into converting. it didn't work, but only because i cannot physically believe in god. needless to say, it was unpleasant, and i got some light deprogramming done by a therapist to get rid of the brainwashing. still, it's probably the most humane way to kill a corrupted ideal, even if "humane" is not exactly an appropriate term.

Again, I'm concerned about who decides to deprogram whom. Fiddling with indoctrination can work both ways -- it is not in a state's interests to cure its population of nationalism.

[Old Viking]

The slaughter was mindless horror and total cowardice.  Beneath contempt.

The publication's "satire" or "humor" falls light years short of sophomoric.  It is infantile.  Voltaire vomits in his grave.

[I am lizard]

I just hope France doesn't use this as a chance to over-militarize the police.

[Ironchew]

I just hope France doesn't use this as a chance to over-militarize the police.

France got past their MUH GUNZ phase in 1939 thanks to gun control legislation, so I don't think they will. At most it won't look anything like police militarization in the U.S.

[guizonde]

I just hope France doesn't use this as a chance to over-militarize the police.

France got past their MUH GUNZ phase in 1939 thanks to gun control legislation, so I don't think they will. At most it won't look anything like police militarization in the U.S.

pure speculation, but i'll bet they'll reinforce vigipirate protocol and counterterrorism. rather than loading up cops with guns, they'd rather load them up with info. which is bad in its own way, but hey, less violent.

[Askold]

The French police had a car chase and a shootout with the terrorist suspects but now it has escalated into a hostage situation at an airport. Two deaths so far according to news.

http://news.sky.com/story/1404787/paris-terror-suspects-cornered-after-chase

[Askold]

Are the moderate muslims "the greatest victims" of this attack?

Has someone made this claim? I must have missed it. I've seen people point out elsewhere that the ones who suffer most from the extremist violence in general are other Muslims which is an accurate claim.

Well, the first three comments in this thread are about how this will turn out bad for the muslims in France. As far as I've seen more comments are about what this means for muslims than giving condolences to the families of the dead or discussing the deceased reporters and cartoonists.

[ironbite]

And it's over.  Final tally, all gunmen dead, 4 hostages killed.

Ironbite-total death tally from this is 17.

[ironbite]

1 dead policewoman the day after the attack.