Author Topic: Should the USA be balkanized?  (Read 13282 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline gyeonghwa

  • Uppity and Proud of It
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 2041
  • Gender: Male
  • That angry queer your tone trolls warned you about
    • Queer & Khmer
Re: Should the USA be balkanized?
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2012, 11:42:39 pm »
I was reading an interesting article (I think on addicting info) that the US could be split into 11 areas based on political interests-

The Left Coast
New England
Yankee-dom
Tide-water
The Deep South
El Norte
The West
The Great Lakes Basin
Alaska
Hawaii
The North
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 11:46:58 pm by gyeonghwa »
That may be the single gayest thing I have ever read on this board. Or the old one. ;)

Offline Lithp

  • Official FSTDT Spokesman
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1339
Re: Should the USA be balkanized?
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2012, 12:48:01 am »
Just a quick clarification, this topic WAS supposed to be mostly a joke, correct?

Art Vandelay

  • Guest
Re: Should the USA be balkanized?
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2012, 01:18:07 am »
Which will piss off a lot of people though. As I stated, state representatives and senators do what their people tell them to, both in the state and in Washington, so they're probable not going to let this happen soon or as fast as it needs. Although they probably wouldn't agree with this plan either.
So? Raising taxes almost universally pisses people off, but at times it's in the best interests of the country. Populism isn't exactly infallible.
Well look on the bright side, instead of having 1 somewhat good country allied to you, you'll have 2 or 3 great countries. By cutting them off, they will be happy and will stop affecting the rest of this country.
I'd rather keep the country united. After all, Germany only became a great power after in unified, Great Britain became a major power after unifying with Scotland, Italy... Well, went from a complete joke to a rather large annoyance after unifying. No nation ever became stronger by fragmenting.
Only if people want to participate. And we don't have high speed rails yet.
You don't need high-speed rail to vote. People all the way in Hawaii have no more trouble voting at the federal level than someone in Washington DC as is. I fail to see how that will change if the Federal government has more power and responsibilities.

Though while we're on the subject of high speed rail, I'll just leave this for you to enjoy.

Offline Sylvana

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1016
  • Gender: Female
Re: Should the USA be balkanized?
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2012, 01:57:24 am »
My second thought is this: what's to stop Dixieland from trying to invade one of their new neighbors? As has already been mentioned, they're backwards enough in some places that reinstating Jim Crow laws could very well happen. Seeing as the same people who would propose this tend to be the worst Jesus Freaks, what's to stop them from making some "holy" crusade against their neighbors? It seems to me that, as tempting as this kind of divide is for completely selfish reasons, I have a hard time seeing this NOT devolving into war once some nut declares himself the prophet and decides them no-good yanks need to have their ass kicked. Even though Dixie probably wouldn't succeed, I doubt many people really want to see the Mason-Dixon light up with muzzle flashes again.

I actually doubt that. While the south are a bunch of war mongering jesus land idiots, suddenly being faced with the problem of having to run all those states without the federal support from the norther states will quickly make them realize they have some serious problems. As it stands right now the South drains more revenue than in generates, and this wont change if they were to become independent. They will be faced with a sudden problem in funding their military, even after they cut all social programs. Basically the south states have been getting a free ride and screwing things for everyone, their independence would give them a great opportunity to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, as they say.

With regard to people not wanting to give up state control to the federal government, the real reason they don't want that to happen is that the ass backwards states can pull all kinds of stunts with their laws. And given the near endless appeals system they can get those laws enforced for who knows how many years until it finally gets overturned by the supreme court. There is really no reason why different states should have different standards of education or different laws to the whole federation. It just causes trouble.

Offline Cataclysm

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 2458
Re: Should the USA be balkanized?
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2012, 10:07:32 pm »
Just a quick clarification, this topic WAS supposed to be mostly a joke, correct?

Just like third parties. Although dividing the country might be possible without complete dissolution.

Which will piss off a lot of people though. As I stated, state representatives and senators do what their people tell them to, both in the state and in Washington, so they're probable not going to let this happen soon or as fast as it needs. Although they probably wouldn't agree with this plan either.
So? Raising taxes almost universally pisses people off, but at times it's in the best interests of the country. Populism isn't exactly infallible.

It would be easier to get things done without people being pissed off and stopping them from happening.

Quote
Well look on the bright side, instead of having 1 somewhat good country allied to you, you'll have 2 or 3 great countries. By cutting them off, they will be happy and will stop affecting the rest of this country.
I'd rather keep the country united. After all, Germany only became a great power after in unified, Great Britain became a major power after unifying with Scotland, Italy... Well, went from a complete joke to a rather large annoyance after unifying. No nation ever became stronger by fragmenting.

But those countries did that many years ago, and they are tiny anyways.

Quote
Only if people want to participate. And we don't have high speed rails yet.
You don't need high-speed rail to vote. People all the way in Hawaii have no more trouble voting at the federal level than someone in Washington DC as is. I fail to see how that will change if the Federal government has more power and responsibilities.

The government can only have as much power as the people lets them. Thus by making smaller countries, there will be less conflict of interest and more people will agree to let the government take control.
I'd be more sympathetic if people here didn't act like they knew what they were saying when they were saying something very much wrong.

Quote
Commenter Brendan Rizzo is an American (still living there) who really, really hates America. He used to make posts defending his country from anti-American attacks but got fed up with it all.

Art Vandelay

  • Guest
Re: Should the USA be balkanized?
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2012, 10:16:12 pm »
It would be easier to get things done without people being pissed off and stopping them from happening.
Yes, and nobody would have any problem with dividing the US, right?
But those countries did that many years ago, and they are tiny anyways.
So? Did some event occur in the last century or so that suddenly means unifying in this day and age doesn't increase power? Furthermore, Those countries aren't "tiny" by any stretch of the imagination.
The government can only have as much power as the people lets them. Thus by making smaller countries, there will be less conflict of interest and more people will agree to let the government take control.
Nice goal post shift there. Furthermore, I've yet to see anything to suggest that people would be more willing to fragment the US than to give more power to the federal government.

Offline Lithp

  • Official FSTDT Spokesman
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1339
Re: Should the USA be balkanized?
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2012, 10:20:20 pm »
Quote
Although dividing the country might be possible without complete dissolution.

No. No it really wouldn't be. You'd hve to divvy up federal resources to ensure that all of the countries can fend for themselves. Then you don't know what they'll do with them. And before you know it, Michigan starts dumping shit in the Great Lakes, Pennsylvania gets pissed off & nukes them, & then fucking Canada gets sick of our combined shit & kills us all.

Canada!

Offline Yaezakura

  • The Pokemon Mistress
  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 561
  • Gender: Female
  • Little Lesbian Gaming Goddess
    • A Mayor's Tale - The daily trials of an Animal Crossing Mayor
Re: Should the USA be balkanized?
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2012, 10:26:37 pm »
I think the heat and pressure involved would probably--...oh. Balkanized. Nevermind then.

Offline Cataclysm

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 2458
Re: Should the USA be balkanized?
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2012, 10:29:02 pm »

Quote
But those countries did that many years ago, and they are tiny anyways.
So? Did some event occur in the last century or so that suddenly means unifying in this day and age doesn't increase power? Furthermore, Those countries aren't "tiny" by any stretch of the imagination.

Tiny when compared to the USA

Quote
The government can only have as much power as the people lets them. Thus by making smaller countries, there will be less conflict of interest and more people will agree to let the government take control.
Nice goal post shift there. Furthermore, I've yet to see anything to suggest that people would be more willing to fragment the US than to give more power to the federal government.

Why don't you put up a poll!

I don't have enough money.

Although even if we grant Federal Government the power to be able to fix the problems in this country, they wouldn't do it, at least not as quick as they should.

Quote
Although dividing the country might be possible without complete dissolution.

Canada!

Pfft, everyone knows that Mexico will be the one who will destroy us all.
I'd be more sympathetic if people here didn't act like they knew what they were saying when they were saying something very much wrong.

Quote
Commenter Brendan Rizzo is an American (still living there) who really, really hates America. He used to make posts defending his country from anti-American attacks but got fed up with it all.

Offline Lithp

  • Official FSTDT Spokesman
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1339
Re: Should the USA be balkanized?
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2012, 10:34:37 pm »
Quote
Although even if we grant Federal Government the power to be able to fix the problems in this country, they wouldn't do it, at least not as quick as they should.

They do have the power, they just aren't using it because they are divided & struggling for power against each other.

...So your solution is to split them up into multiple autonomous nations.

Even better, your solution is to break them up along those political fault lines, so that the worst aspects of that belief system are allowed to flourish unchecked.

Because, obviously, at no point will they try to attack their neighbors in any way.

Art Vandelay

  • Guest
Re: Should the USA be balkanized?
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2012, 10:46:47 pm »
Tiny when compared to the USA
I notice you didn't answer my first question.
Why don't you put up a poll!
Why? You're the only one arguing for splitting the country. The general consensus is pretty much undeniably in the "centralisation is better" camp.
I don't have enough money.
You don't have enough to do what and why is it relevant?
Although even if we grant Federal Government the power to be able to fix the problems in this country, they wouldn't do it, at least not as quick as they should.
As opposed to, at best, fixing them in some regions while completely fucking it up beyond repair in others.

Offline Cataclysm

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 2458
Re: Should the USA be balkanized?
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2012, 11:30:20 pm »
Tiny when compared to the USA
I notice you didn't answer my first question.

Centralization is much harder with a large population.

Quote
Why don't you put up a poll!
Why? You're the only one arguing for splitting the country. The general consensus is pretty much undeniably in the "centralisation is better" camp.

1. Because I don't have enough money.

2. Also, centralization in what? Raising taxes? Going to war? Regulating Businesses. It all depends on what power the federal government will obtain and execute.

Quote
I don't have enough money.
You don't have enough to do what and why is it relevant?

3. See #1.

Quote
Although even if we grant Federal Government the power to be able to fix the problems in this country, they wouldn't do it, at least not as quick as they should.
As opposed to, at best, fixing them in some regions while completely fucking it up beyond repair in others.

Those regions do that by themselves anyways. It'll just be faster if they didn't have to listen to each other.

@Addy- check Sylvana's post.

And if they aren't paeloconservatives, they probably will be too occupied with the Middle East to do attack. Plus we could all just make a treaty saying we wouldn't.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 11:50:50 pm by Lexikon »
I'd be more sympathetic if people here didn't act like they knew what they were saying when they were saying something very much wrong.

Quote
Commenter Brendan Rizzo is an American (still living there) who really, really hates America. He used to make posts defending his country from anti-American attacks but got fed up with it all.

Offline VirtualStranger

  • Blinded with Science
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 946
  • Gender: Male
Re: Should the USA be balkanized?
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2012, 03:02:21 am »


I don't honestly believe that this scenario would ever happen, so this is just speculation for fun.

I think this map is a bit too simplistic. I feeling too lazy to make my own map right now, so I'll just link to this because I think it's a pretty good approximation of what I had in mind. It's not exactly a border map, but it does a good job of showing the various mega-regions in the US and their area of influence.

HUGE IMAGE AHEAD

Offline D Laurier

  • Bishop
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
  • Gender: Male
  • Never trust a white man with power.
Re: Should the USA be balkanized?
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2012, 11:45:36 am »
Quote
Although dividing the country might be possible without complete dissolution.

No. No it really wouldn't be. You'd hve to divvy up federal resources to ensure that all of the countries can fend for themselves. Then you don't know what they'll do with them. And before you know it, Michigan starts dumping shit in the Great Lakes, Pennsylvania gets pissed off & nukes them, & then fucking Canada gets sick of our combined shit & kills us all.

Canada!
Nope. We wont kill you.
We will just send you more Celin Dion clones.
Cable (or satelite) TV is like paying someone to projectile poop all over your brain.

Offline MaybeNever

  • Got His Red Wings
  • Pope
  • ****
  • Posts: 332
  • Gender: Male
  • Possessed of a proclivity for prolixity
Re: Should the USA be balkanized?
« Reply #44 on: February 27, 2012, 12:06:39 am »
So? Did some event occur in the last century or so that suddenly means unifying in this day and age doesn't increase power? Furthermore, Those countries aren't "tiny" by any stretch of the imagination.

By your logic, the US conquering Mexico and Canada would only make it stronger, when one can pretty safely assert that the opposite would be the case; the resources being invested would not remotely be offset by the gains of the territories. In the cases you cite, there was in some sense a nationalist drive behind them that made unification something more than simple territorial acquisition - it was so powerful that even German intellectuals, who chafed at the idea of a Germany dominated by authoritarian, militaristic Prussia, still bought in to the idea of a unified Germany. It was the union of like-minded areas that basically were prepared to submit to the greater union instead of their own regional interests.

It seems reasonable therefore that dropping an unproductive or dissenting region, one that is unprepared to actually undergo such integration, may well improve the state of a nation by freeing up resources that can better be spent elsewhere. Losing thirty million social and political atavists and a financial black hole seems at least somewhat likely to have this effect in the United States, streamlining governance and economic processes, dramatically reducing financial burdens, and allowing for a leaner machine overall, probably without significantly reducing its capacity to completely destroy the world if it really wanted to.
"Great Britain's two most senior military officers added to the uneasiness. [...] Lord Wolseley, Adjutant General, thought that it might be possible for an enemy to invade without waiters and pastrycooks."
-Robert K. Massie, Dreadnought