2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo

[Danarth]

I rather think the casualty rate of 5 as compared to 500 is all that really is needed to show that Israel is clearly in the wrong here.

[Ultimate Paragon]

right now, however, your simile is only partially true: it's like penalizing an oppressed population based on what rival mafias do to each other.

blame the warhawks, not the doves. it's a shame that both sides are under the yoke of the hawks.

Not quite from what I can see, which I admit is not much, but from my perspective, Palestine barely has any kind of single unified form of government. Hamas isn't so much in control of Palestine as it is a fragmented violent organization full of people angry at Israel. I dont think Hamas could stop attacks on Israel because they lack any kind of cohesive command structure. It wouldn't surprise me if the people actually doing the attacks are just angry civilians.

If we take the killing and attacks on both side out of the equation, what Israel is doing to Palestine with the ghettos, expanding housing projects and the complete disenfranchising of the Palestinian people, it can really be likened directly to Apartheid. Is it surprising that the Palestinian people have no other option but to turn to violence?

They have tried to solve thing diplomatically. Last time this flared up the peace process was completely destroyed because on the day negotiations were supposed to start Israel declared plans for another round of housing expansion into Palestinian territories. Palestine tried to become recognized as a state and gain international protection from Israel by appealing to the UN, but were vetoed by Israels sucker ally America.

Saying both are equally at fault might have been true once. Lately though, as Israel becomes more oppressive, the blame is steadily pointing at them alone. The Palestinians literally have no other option but to fire essentially harmless rockets into Israel in a feeble gesture of self defense. The only other option for them is to just lie down and die.

It's not as simple as that.  Hamas built a freaking monument to the rocket attacks against Israel.  Whether they're responsible or not, that's just poor taste.

And the fragmentation of the Palestinian authority is Hamas's fault.  In fact, their coup in Gaza is responsible for many of the problems facing Palestinians.

[Witchyjoshy]

right now, however, your simile is only partially true: it's like penalizing an oppressed population based on what rival mafias do to each other.

blame the warhawks, not the doves. it's a shame that both sides are under the yoke of the hawks.

Not quite from what I can see, which I admit is not much, but from my perspective, Palestine barely has any kind of single unified form of government. Hamas isn't so much in control of Palestine as it is a fragmented violent organization full of people angry at Israel. I dont think Hamas could stop attacks on Israel because they lack any kind of cohesive command structure. It wouldn't surprise me if the people actually doing the attacks are just angry civilians.

If we take the killing and attacks on both side out of the equation, what Israel is doing to Palestine with the ghettos, expanding housing projects and the complete disenfranchising of the Palestinian people, it can really be likened directly to Apartheid. Is it surprising that the Palestinian people have no other option but to turn to violence?

They have tried to solve thing diplomatically. Last time this flared up the peace process was completely destroyed because on the day negotiations were supposed to start Israel declared plans for another round of housing expansion into Palestinian territories. Palestine tried to become recognized as a state and gain international protection from Israel by appealing to the UN, but were vetoed by Israels sucker ally America.

Saying both are equally at fault might have been true once. Lately though, as Israel becomes more oppressive, the blame is steadily pointing at them alone. The Palestinians literally have no other option but to fire essentially harmless rockets into Israel in a feeble gesture of self defense. The only other option for them is to just lie down and die.

It's not as simple as that.  Hamas built a freaking monument to the rocket attacks against Israel.  Whether they're responsible or not, that's just poor taste.

That is indeed in poor taste.

You know what's in even more poor taste?

Bulldozing people's homes and replacing them with homes for your people.

And the fragmentation of the Palestinian authority is Hamas's fault.  In fact, their coup in Gaza is responsible for many of the problems facing Palestinians.

No, Israel is responsible for many of the problems facing Palestinians because they're the one actually doing things.

[Canadian Mojo]

From another thread, but I can't ignore it:

I concur.  I've never believed in fighting fair when lives are on the line.  If some fuck tried to mug me, I wouldn't hesitate to fight dirty.

 

So does this make you an asshole like Hamas or does this make Hamas a 'decent guy' (in a desperate situation) like you?

[Ultimate Paragon]

From another thread, but I can't ignore it:

I concur.  I've never believed in fighting fair when lives are on the line.  If some fuck tried to mug me, I wouldn't hesitate to fight dirty.

 

So does this make you an asshole like Hamas or does this make Hamas a 'decent guy' (in a desperate situation) like you?

Difference is, I wouldn't us that as an excuse to kill innocent bystanders.  And Hamas created that desperate situation.

[Canadian Mojo]

From another thread, but I can't ignore it:

I concur.  I've never believed in fighting fair when lives are on the line.  If some fuck tried to mug me, I wouldn't hesitate to fight dirty.

 

So does this make you an asshole like Hamas or does this make Hamas a 'decent guy' (in a desperate situation) like you?

Difference is, I wouldn't us that as an excuse to kill innocent bystanders.  And Hamas created that desperate situation.

Hamas created that desperate situation by refusing to hand over their wallet when Israel mugged them. I guess in light of all the death and mayhem it would have been nicer if they had been a good little victim and just given up but that doesn't change the fact that they are the victim here.

[Ultimate Paragon]

From another thread, but I can't ignore it:

I concur.  I've never believed in fighting fair when lives are on the line.  If some fuck tried to mug me, I wouldn't hesitate to fight dirty.

 

So does this make you an asshole like Hamas or does this make Hamas a 'decent guy' (in a desperate situation) like you?

Difference is, I wouldn't us that as an excuse to kill innocent bystanders.  And Hamas created that desperate situation.

Hamas created that desperate situation by refusing to hand over their wallet when Israel mugged them. I guess in light of all the death and mayhem it would have been nicer if they had been a good little victim and just given up but that doesn't change the fact that they are the victim here.

No, they created it by seizing power in Gaza by force.

[Canadian Mojo]

From another thread, but I can't ignore it:

I concur.  I've never believed in fighting fair when lives are on the line.  If some fuck tried to mug me, I wouldn't hesitate to fight dirty.

 

So does this make you an asshole like Hamas or does this make Hamas a 'decent guy' (in a desperate situation) like you?

Difference is, I wouldn't us that as an excuse to kill innocent bystanders.  And Hamas created that desperate situation.

Hamas created that desperate situation by refusing to hand over their wallet when Israel mugged them. I guess in light of all the death and mayhem it would have been nicer if they had been a good little victim and just given up but that doesn't change the fact that they are the victim here.

No, they created it by seizing power in Gaza by force.

And the fact that Israel did the same damn thing has nothing to do with the situation?

[ironbite]

Pretty sure it was here but I'd like to point out that there was no coup when Hamas took over.  They were voted in by the people.

Ironbite-very scared people who had Israel's knife to their throats at the time.

[Ultimate Paragon]

Pretty sure it was here but I'd like to point out that there was no coup when Hamas took over.  They were voted in by the people.

Ironbite-very scared people who had Israel's knife to their throats at the time.

Israel had already withdrawn from Gaza.  And it's true that they were elected at first, but then they capitalized on that by taking over in a military coup.

[ironbite]

Oh so I guess you're going to just listen to whatever bullshit you want eh?  Fine by me.

Ironbite-can't say I've had an intelligent conversation with you so far so why start now?

[Lt. Fred]

I'm not defending Israel's actions.  Their actions during the assault on Gaza have been contemptible.  My point is that both sides must share the blame for these tragedies.

The side that could end the conflict holds all responsibility for acts committed in prosecution of it, by both sides, including predictable attacks committed irrationally to lash out against them. Including those of forty years ago which you bring up for some reason. Hamas wouldn't hurt an (Israeli) fly if Israel stopped trying to steal their goddamn land. Indeed, Hamas had just about fallen apart until Israel gave them this massive gift.

I note the silly dishonest attempts to paint us all as supporters of Hamas. I also note that Palestinians are a Semitic people.

No, they created it by seizing power in Gaza by force.

Indeed. Hamas created the Israeli occupation of the West Bank (1968-???) by the illegitimate use of electoral force in 2006. Fortunately, Israel and the US armed Fatah and they were able to employ the Legitimate Firearms of Democracy in order to take over what was left of the West Bank. Which is good.

[Nemo]

Seriously, are people blaming Israel here? Sure, I don't like all their leaders or policies, but show me where in Likud's platform you can find the complete destruction of all Arabs. Show me where Israel has deliberately targeted civilians. Show me where Israeli schools have taught their children to commit martyrdom. If the so called Palestinians loved their children more than they hated Jews, then maybe there could be peace.

Come on guys, I've been reading posts on this forum for a long time. You guys are way too smart to be defending the Islamists.

[ironbite]

Wow....just...wow.

Ironbite-*slow claps*

[Witchyjoshy]

Come on guys, I've been reading posts on this forum for a long time. You guys are way too smart to be defending the Islamists.

1. If you think we're smart, then maybe the reason we've come to a different conclusion than you is because we're smarter than you.

2. The mere fact that you dismiss the Palestinian people as "Islamists" shows that you are prejudiced, maybe even bigoted, and therefore, you are approaching the situation from a faulty premise automatically.

If you had even read the topic, you would have seen the proof of what you're asking for.  Including the part where Israel soldiers intentionally aimed at Palestinian kids and killed them.

I will not waste time addressing the rest of your post, because not only have those points been addressed already, you are relying heavily on "poisoning the well", so to speak.