2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo

[Ironchew]

If "kill 'em all and take their land" ain't genocide, I wanna know what is.

They don't want to take Gaza, they just want to cripple Hamas

I think you're being just a liiiittle too trusting of what Israel says they want, as opposed to what they actually want. Don't look at their words, look at their actions. They're bombing UN schools and hospitals, that's not just something you can toss off as "well, insurgents might be using it as a base". If you're bombing schools and hospitals, it's clear that you don't care about the populace there.

I agree, Israel is being too trigger-happy and callous.  But that doesn't prove anything about their intentions.

If Hamas launched guided missiles at Israeli hospitals and schools and killed even a fraction of those killed in the UN shelters, there would be immediate condemnation and no pussy-footing around the issue of "doesn't prove anything about their intentions" or "commendable restraint". Why the double standard, UP? Why does Israel get a slap on the wrist?

[Ultimate Paragon]

If "kill 'em all and take their land" ain't genocide, I wanna know what is.

They don't want to take Gaza, they just want to cripple Hamas

I think you're being just a liiiittle too trusting of what Israel says they want, as opposed to what they actually want. Don't look at their words, look at their actions. They're bombing UN schools and hospitals, that's not just something you can toss off as "well, insurgents might be using it as a base". If you're bombing schools and hospitals, it's clear that you don't care about the populace there.

I agree, Israel is being too trigger-happy and callous.  But that doesn't prove anything about their intentions.

If Hamas launched guided missiles at Israeli hospitals and schools and killed even a fraction of those killed in the UN shelters, there would be immediate condemnation and no pussy-footing around the issue of "doesn't prove anything about their intentions" or "commendable restraint". Why the double standard, UP? Why does Israel get a slap on the wrist?

There are a number of reasons.

[Ironchew]

If Hamas launched guided missiles at Israeli hospitals and schools and killed even a fraction of those killed in the UN shelters, there would be immediate condemnation and no pussy-footing around the issue of "doesn't prove anything about their intentions" or "commendable restraint". Why the double standard, UP? Why does Israel get a slap on the wrist?

Because they were driven to these measures.  It doesn't justify it, but it's important to note.

Driven by what, exactly? Israel has total control over the airspace and they collude with Egypt to not let any refugees out of the Gaza strip. This is straight-up ethnic cleansing and you apparently don't have the courage to say so.

[Ultimate Paragon]

If Hamas launched guided missiles at Israeli hospitals and schools and killed even a fraction of those killed in the UN shelters, there would be immediate condemnation and no pussy-footing around the issue of "doesn't prove anything about their intentions" or "commendable restraint". Why the double standard, UP? Why does Israel get a slap on the wrist?

Because they were driven to these measures.  It doesn't justify it, but it's important to note.

Driven by what, exactly? Israel has total control over the airspace and they collude with Egypt to not let any refugees out of the Gaza strip. This is straight-up ethnic cleansing and you apparently don't have the courage to say so.

By the fact that a flipping terrorist organization illegally seized power through violence.  And it's not ethnic cleansing.  You want to see that?  Look at what Saddam Hussein did to the Kurds.  If it were ethnic cleansing, many, many more Palestinians would be dead.

Speaking of ethnic cleansing, Hamas would definitely do it if they had the chance.  Is it wrong for Israel to not want to give them that chance?

[Ironchew]

Spare me the comparisons. Israel isn't wiping them out right away because that would finally provoke outrage and get the Israeli regime wiped out by the international community. Netanyahu does it slowly so that the mainstream media indulges his excuses.

[Ultimate Paragon]

Spare me the comparisons. Israel isn't wiping them out right away because that would finally provoke outrage and get the Israeli regime wiped out by the international community. Netanyahu does it slowly so that the mainstream media indulges his excuses.

I disagree with Netanyahu's position and his methods, but I don't think he wants to commit genocide against the Palestinians.  That's like saying Bill Clinton wanted to exterminate Sudanese Muslims.

[Sigmaleph]

The difference is, this time, "the Hitler card" as you so dismissively put it is actually valid. Reductio ad Hitlerum is only a fallacy when the comparison to Hitler isn't valid.

Everyone thinks their Hitler comparison is valid. Everyone on the receiving end thinks its invalid. It accomplishes nothing.

[Canadian Mojo]

Spare me the comparisons. Israel isn't wiping them out right away because that would finally provoke outrage and get the Israeli regime wiped out by the international community. Netanyahu does it slowly so that the mainstream media indulges his excuses.

I disagree with Netanyahu's position and his methods, but I don't think he wants to commit genocide against the Palestinians.  That's like saying Bill Clinton wanted to exterminate Sudanese Muslims.

Look up lebensraum and tell me where you think this is going.

And before you give me any bullshit about how Gaza doesn't have any settlements anymore the West Bank still does -- that is about as meaningful as saying Texas shouldn't get grumpy because it is only Florida that is getting taken over and not them.

[Ultimate Paragon]

Spare me the comparisons. Israel isn't wiping them out right away because that would finally provoke outrage and get the Israeli regime wiped out by the international community. Netanyahu does it slowly so that the mainstream media indulges his excuses.

I disagree with Netanyahu's position and his methods, but I don't think he wants to commit genocide against the Palestinians.  That's like saying Bill Clinton wanted to exterminate Sudanese Muslims.

Look up lebensraum and tell me where you think this is going.

And before you give me any bullshit about how Gaza doesn't have any settlements anymore the West Bank still does -- that is about as meaningful as saying Texas shouldn't get grumpy because it is only Florida that is getting taken over and not them.

And Israel was planning on withdrawing from the West Bank... until Sharon had his stroke and Hamas started taking over Gaza.

[I am lizard]

Spare me the comparisons. Israel isn't wiping them out right away because that would finally provoke outrage and get the Israeli regime wiped out by the international community. Netanyahu does it slowly so that the mainstream media indulges his excuses.

I disagree with Netanyahu's position and his methods, but I don't think he wants to commit genocide against the Palestinians.  That's like saying Bill Clinton wanted to exterminate Sudanese Muslims.

Look up lebensraum and tell me where you think this is going.

And before you give me any bullshit about how Gaza doesn't have any settlements anymore the West Bank still does -- that is about as meaningful as saying Texas shouldn't get grumpy because it is only Florida that is getting taken over and not them.

And Israel was planning on withdrawing from the West Bank... until Sharon had his stroke and Hamas started taking over Gaza.

Could you please provide a link from a credible source for this (try the links in Wikipedia articles)

[Sylvana]

Ultimate Paragon, I am curious about something.
I would like to hear your thoughts about this.

Lets ignore the conflict completely. Ignore sides rocket bombs airstrikes and terrorist organizations.

Israel continually increases its land into the west bank and Gaza though settlement projects. These basically involve apartheid era forced removals where they bulldoze anything there and build nice houses for Israel citizens. These settlements are quite nice, but Palestinians are not allowed to live there. If we want to be hopelessly optimistic from an Israel point of view we can say that those Palestinians were squatters and shouldn't have been living there, to help justify Israels actions.

The thing is, what this also means in reverse is that the land that the Palestinians can use to live is constantly decreasing forcing more people to live closer together. This has a number of effects like increasing crime, lowering standards of living, increasing poverty, decreasing the ability for healthcare to keep up. Basically it makes everything worse.

Add to this that all of Palestine is under siege. All movement is restricted and no one gets in or out of Palestine without Israel allowing it. As it stands such basic supplies like medicine and concrete are completely restricted. This means that those houses in Palestine are of very poor quality, and medical care is even worse than usual.

Now all of this is ample reason for the Palestinians to get uppity. However, lets assume that some magical force comes over them and they choose to comply completely and just accept anything that happens to them.

When Israel finally has taken over all the Palestinian land, what are the Palestinians supposed to do? This is a serious honest question. What do you expect them to do? They cant leave Palestine because of the siege. They cant live in Israel, and they would basically no longer have even an inch of land left. What do you expect them to do at that point? I would really like to know.

Lastly, if you think the ANC were better than Hamas, you live with some seriously rose tinted glasses. The ANC committed some atrocious crimes, often specifically against civilians. The only reason you even think they are nice and better is that at the end of the day they won the civil war, and the terrorists became freedom fighters.

Right now Israel and Palestine are pretty much South African Apartheid in all but name. Although there is one other difference, the whites saw the blacks as a useful source of basically slave labor, and so at least looked after them enough to still be useful. Israel doesn't care about the Palestinians at all.

[Ultimate Paragon]

I disagree with the settlement policy.  I want Israel to withdraw from Palestinian territory (with the exception of East Jerusalem).  However, Hamas is not the solution.

If the ANC was as bad as Hamas, then Nelson Mandela deserved all he suffered in prison and then some.  While the ANC did commit terrorist attacks, they did so with reluctance and regret.  Moreover, the ANC included a lot of non-blacks.  They did not use human shields, they did not gloat over the deaths of Afrikaner civilians, they did not call for genocide, and they did not want to establish a repressive bigoted theocracy. 

Most important, they cared about the well-being of the people they fought for.  Hamas sees the people of Gaza as tools.  The lopsided death toll is at least party due to Hamas using human shields, storing weapons in civilian buildings, and hiding behind the people they say they want to protect.  It's also part of their media strategy.  People see civilian deaths and blame them on Israel.  It's true that it was Israel who pulled the trigger, but Hamas was the reason they ended up in those positions in the first place. 

That's not all.  Hamas has tortured more Palestinians than Israel, they persecute sexual minorities, they're shamelessly misogynistic, and they're anti-Semitic.  Jews aren't the only religious group they persecute, either.  They also persecute Shiites, Christians, and atheists.  With friends like them, Palestine needs no enemies. 

The ANC was born of hope, Hamas was born from hate.  If you think the groups are similar beyond the superficialities, you need to read up more.

Israel has every right to attack Gaza.  My criticism comes from the methods they use.  This is a situation that calls for a scalpel, not a sledgehammer.  Hamas is a cancer, one that must be removed with minimal harm to the Palestinians. 

[Canadian Mojo]

Spare me the comparisons. Israel isn't wiping them out right away because that would finally provoke outrage and get the Israeli regime wiped out by the international community. Netanyahu does it slowly so that the mainstream media indulges his excuses.

I disagree with Netanyahu's position and his methods, but I don't think he wants to commit genocide against the Palestinians.  That's like saying Bill Clinton wanted to exterminate Sudanese Muslims.

Look up lebensraum and tell me where you think this is going.

And before you give me any bullshit about how Gaza doesn't have any settlements anymore the West Bank still does -- that is about as meaningful as saying Texas shouldn't get grumpy because it is only Florida that is getting taken over and not them.

Would it make you feel better if I used the term 'manifest destiny' instead? Personally, I think lebensraum is the more appropriate term since its implementation involved the political machinations of modern nation states rather than a nation simply rolling over a more primitive indigenous culture.

And Israel was planning on withdrawing from the West Bank... until Sharon had his stroke and Hamas started taking over Gaza.

So what stopped them?
The west bank isn't, and hasn't been, under Hamas control since before Sharon's stroke. They have played by the rules Israel set out and what has it got them? I guess you could argue that Israel is nice enough to spit on it rather than just giving it to them dry, but that's a pretty damn far cry from what was 'promised.'

The irony is that you and I both know that being nice to the West Bank is the only real solution to this problem. Israel needs to show everyone in Gaza that if they would only play nice they could have their freedom too. Hamas support would wither overnight. Instead, Israel plays the exact opposite game and reinforces the Hamas position that it won't ever accept a Palestinian state except at gunpoint.

It's almost like they want to provoke a fight. I would expect a former special forces captain and U.N. ambassador to know better that that... unless that is exactly what he wanted.

[Ultimate Paragon]

Spare me the comparisons. Israel isn't wiping them out right away because that would finally provoke outrage and get the Israeli regime wiped out by the international community. Netanyahu does it slowly so that the mainstream media indulges his excuses.

I disagree with Netanyahu's position and his methods, but I don't think he wants to commit genocide against the Palestinians.  That's like saying Bill Clinton wanted to exterminate Sudanese Muslims.

Look up lebensraum and tell me where you think this is going.

And before you give me any bullshit about how Gaza doesn't have any settlements anymore the West Bank still does -- that is about as meaningful as saying Texas shouldn't get grumpy because it is only Florida that is getting taken over and not them.

Would it make you feel better if I used the term 'manifest destiny' instead? Personally, I think lebensraum is the more appropriate term since its implementation involved the political machinations of modern nation states rather than a nation simply rolling over a more primitive indigenous culture.

And Israel was planning on withdrawing from the West Bank... until Sharon had his stroke and Hamas started taking over Gaza.

So what stopped them?
The west bank isn't, and hasn't been, under Hamas control since before Sharon's stroke. They have played by the rules Israel set out and what has it got them? I guess you could argue that Israel is nice enough to spit on it rather than just giving it to them dry, but that's a pretty damn far cry from what was 'promised.'

The irony is that you and I both know that being nice to the West Bank is the only real solution to this problem. Israel needs to show everyone in Gaza that if they would only play nice they could have their freedom too. Hamas support would wither overnight. Instead, Israel plays the exact opposite game and reinforces the Hamas position that it won't ever accept a Palestinian state except at gunpoint.

It's almost like they want to provoke a fight. I would expect a former special forces captain and U.N. ambassador to know better that that... unless that is exactly what he wanted.

There's the problem.  Israel did play nice with Gaza, and terrorists took over.  Does it justify their expansion into the West Bank?  No, but it does help to explain why they might be reluctant to withdraw.

And if Netanyahu is deliberately provoking a fight (I don't know if he is, but he might be), it's more likely because he wants to hold onto power.  That's a terrible thing to do, but it's not worthy of a comparison to Hitler.

[I am lizard]

FFS, could you please just provide a source for your accusation that HAMAS took over the West Bank?
Or SOMEBODY provide a source for something.
I can claim that HAMAS is run by various cats and it would mean shit.