Author Topic: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo  (Read 55250 times)

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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #240 on: August 23, 2014, 07:59:04 pm »
Hamas wants domination.  Israel already has domination.  Hamas wants to eliminate Israel and any Palestinians who disagree with them.  Israel's eliminated Palestine and are eliminating Palestinians regardless of agreement or not.

Read the fucking article.  Understand it.  Hamas is evil.  But Netanyu and the IDF are worse.  That is why THEY deserve the lion's share of the blame.
Ad hominem all you like, but the fact remains that Hamas has repeatedly violated ceasefire agreements.  Besides, they're the root cause of this mess.  If they hadn't seized power in Gaza, none of this would have happened.

And for all you claim to dislike Hamas, you seem to love making excuses for them.

Offline Cerim Treascair

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #241 on: August 23, 2014, 08:13:28 pm »
Relaying for Magus again:


What ad hominem?  Where?

The only one I see is the one you're making towards me.

How about you read the fucking article?
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #242 on: August 23, 2014, 08:19:44 pm »
Relaying for Magus again:


What ad hominem?  Where?

The only one I see is the one you're making towards me.

How about you read the fucking article?
The article raises some good points, but I find it flawed.  It drops a lot of the conflict's context, it claims Israel is a safe country even while rockets are being fired from Gaza, and it ignores the deep, deep flaws in all too much of Palestinian society.

Also, Cerim, what are your thoughts?

Offline Cerim Treascair

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #243 on: August 23, 2014, 08:34:39 pm »
Me personally? I think there's fuckwits on both sides.  That being said, Israel has the firepower advantage so fucking many times over it's downright unfair.


My stance on this is much like my stance on politicians and media types (Limbaugh and Dawkins, for example) that bitch about the other side.  Lock everyone who really wants to fucking fight and kill the other side in a room, give them equal weapons, let them all fucking kill each other.  Then kill whoever's left.  Problem motherfucking solved, the rational folks on both sides can now move on and the world doesn't have to put up with their bullshit anymore.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #244 on: August 23, 2014, 08:36:06 pm »
Me personally? I think there's fuckwits on both sides.  That being said, Israel has the firepower advantage so fucking many times over it's downright unfair.


My stance on this is much like my stance on politicians and media types (Limbaugh and Dawkins, for example) that bitch about the other side.  Lock everyone who really wants to fucking fight and kill the other side in a room, give them equal weapons, let them all fucking kill each other.  Then kill whoever's left.  Problem motherfucking solved, the rational folks on both sides can now move on and the world doesn't have to put up with their bullshit anymore.
I wouldn't mind that solution.

Offline Cerim Treascair

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #245 on: August 23, 2014, 08:50:50 pm »
I guess, for me personally, it comes down to "Yeah, we really SHOULD all be able to get along, and work out our differences reasonably.  We shouldn't be using political clout to kneecap the other side, or the barrel of a gun to threaten someone we disagree with into silence because we don't like their views."

Take North Korea.  Pwn the fuck out of Kim and his military shitbrains, and then give the civilians enough food that they're never going to go hungry again, and never fear that speaking out will kill the entire family line, and educate them so that things will be better and easier for the next generation.


Pie in the sky, total blind optimism.  I know.  I've also been told 'humanity needs conflict', but we have enough bullshit in our lives that being scared of the guy across the street that maybe speaks in a funny accent or looks different or believes in a different god or even no deity at all, should not *ever* be one of them.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #246 on: August 23, 2014, 10:04:50 pm »
I don't get it.  I really don't.  Israel has killed countless Palestinian kids and the world doesn't bat an eye.  Or rather it screams on high about how Israel needs to stop without doing anything to stop them.  One Israeli kid dies and suddenly it'll intensify the conflict?  How?

Ironbite-actual ground invasion instead of bombing runs?

Maybe they will just start being honest abut targeting civilians and tell the Palestinians "if you don't like it stop lobbing rockets at us (P.S. Leave!)."

(P.S.S. We won't let you leave!)

The border blockade is the most ridiculous aspect of this whole campaign. Something tells me Israel's populace would also become desperate if their neighbors colluded to block any travel or exchange of goods.
Difference is, Israel hasn't been taken over by religiously fanatical terrorists.

Israel our home are basically fascists, in the old Stern Gang/Yitzak Shamir style

Magus's internet is on the fritz, so none of his posts are really getting through at the moment.  Pasting this on his behalf:


You ask me to define "supporting him" then essentially defined it in the next sentence.  Thank you.

But to further define it, I mean the fact that America basically throws money and support at Israel, and we've got entire crowds of people all over the world supporting everything happening to the Palestinians.  Christians, in particular, are useful to what's going on right now.

And now Russia's basically starting to do the same thing to the Ukraine, and there's a lot of useful idiots in America and other countries that are buying into anti-Ukrainian propaganda.

The difference is is that since Ukraine isn't filled with brown people, and they don't belong to a religion that is attributed to terrorism, the wrongs against them are far more well documented.
The difference is that Ukraine isn't run by terrorists, hasn't been firing rockets into Russian territory, and doesn't want to wipe Russia off the map.

I have no idea how you can think the two situations are remotely comparable.  If anything, you're the useful idiots.

You absolutely cannot justify a war of aggression on the grounds that the opposition are big meanies. You have no right to murder children because, you think, their parents would do the .

Note that you personally share moral responsibility for this murderous ethnic cleansing that you firmly support.

Hamas wants domination.  Israel already has domination.  Hamas wants to eliminate Israel and any Palestinians who disagree with them.  Israel's eliminated Palestine and are eliminating Palestinians regardless of agreement or not.

Read the fucking article.  Understand it.  Hamas is evil.  But Netanyu and the IDF are worse.  That is why THEY deserve the lion's share of the blame.
Ad hominem all you like, but the fact remains that Hamas has repeatedly violated ceasefire agreements.  Besides, they're the root cause of this mess.  If they hadn't seized power in Gaza, none of this would have happened.

And for all you claim to dislike Hamas, you seem to love making excuses for them.

Complete nonsense. The conflict would end tomorrow if Israel wanted it to. Hamas has violated some ceasefire agreements - usually after lengthy provocation; Israel has yet to honour a single ceasefire agreement with Palestinians ever. For example, the 2009 war followed years of peace. Hamas obsessively enforced a rocket halt, as it was required to do, and rocket fire ended. Meanwhile, Israel maintained its criminal blockade in violation of the agreement (later the IDF murdered a number of Turks attempting to bring aid to starving Palestinians who had been denied it by the criminal Israeli government). In 2008, Hamas offered a long-standing truce; Israel started bombing. Hamas got all the blame for the conflict.

As for your other claim - that Hamas is the root cause of the conflict - you're just lying. The root cause is Israel's occupation of Palestinian territory. Indeed, it is an advantage to Israel if Hamas appears or is in fact extremist. This war, for instance, began as a response to Hamas' frustrating settlement with Fatah, which was a threat to Israel's international standing. If the Palestinians are peacefully, reasonably demanding an end to the conflict and the Israelis reject their offer, Israel will eventually lose international support and be forced to accept peace. Can't have that - we have to create extremism to justify our annexation. How? Bombing.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #247 on: August 23, 2014, 10:29:00 pm »
Quote
Israel our home are basically fascists, in the old Stern Gang/Yitzak Shamir style
You can call it fascism all you like, but that doesn't make it so.

Quote
You absolutely cannot justify a war of aggression on the grounds that the opposition are big meanies. You have no right to murder children because, you think, their parents would do the .

Note that you personally share moral responsibility for this murderous ethnic cleansing that you firmly support.
Hamas has done far worse than "be big meanies".  And it's not ethnic cleansing.  It's a human rights issue, certainly, but calling it ethnic cleansing is hyperbole.

Quote
Complete nonsense. The conflict would end tomorrow if Israel wanted it to. Hamas has violated some ceasefire agreements - usually after lengthy provocation; Israel has yet to honour a single ceasefire agreement with Palestinians ever. For example, the 2009 war followed years of peace. Hamas obsessively enforced a rocket halt, as it was required to do, and rocket fire ended. Meanwhile, Israel maintained its criminal blockade in violation of the agreement (later the IDF murdered a number of Turks attempting to bring aid to starving Palestinians who had been denied it by the criminal Israeli government). In 2008, Hamas offered a long-standing truce; Israel started bombing. Hamas got all the blame for the conflict.

As for your other claim - that Hamas is the root cause of the conflict - you're just lying. The root cause is Israel's occupation of Palestinian territory. Indeed, it is an advantage to Israel if Hamas appears or is in fact extremist. This war, for instance, began as a response to Hamas' frustrating settlement with Fatah, which was a threat to Israel's international standing. If the Palestinians are peacefully, reasonably demanding an end to the conflict and the Israelis reject their offer, Israel will eventually lose international support and be forced to accept peace. Can't have that - we have to create extremism to justify our annexation. How? Bombing.
Are you completely out of touch with reality?

1.  The conflict began before the blockade, what makes you think it would end if Israel lifts it?

2.  Hamas did not enforce a rocket halt.  The fire slowed, sure, but it was still there.

3.  What I mean to say is that in 2005, there was legitimate hope for peace.  Israel had pulled out of Gaza, and was planning to do the same for the West Bank.  Then Hamas took power.  The fact that they were elected does not make them any less of an existential threat to Israel.  Plenty of horrible people and factions have been elected, and elected fairly, at least at first.  And I'm pretty sure they had some kind of agenda to get rid of both Israel and Fatah.

4.  If anything, Hamas are the conniving ones.  Their "us or them" mentality with regards to Israel has led to them repeatedly provoking Israel and then crying foul when they retaliate.  Yes, the Israeli response is sometimes disproportionate, but that doesn't excuse Hamas's actions.  The fact is, they're trying to turn Israel extremist, or at least make it seem extremist.  They corrupt Israelis and Palestinians at the same time.  Their cunning would be almost admirable if they weren't so loathsome.

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #248 on: August 23, 2014, 10:46:55 pm »
You've got it backwards.  It's Hamas' actions that don't excuse Israeli's actions.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #249 on: August 23, 2014, 11:01:27 pm »
Quote
Israel our home are basically fascists, in the old Stern Gang/Yitzak Shamir style
You can call it fascism all you like, but that doesn't make it so.

Matter of opinion, I guess.

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Quote
You absolutely cannot justify a war of aggression on the grounds that the opposition are big meanies. You have no right to murder children because, you think, their parents would do the .

Note that you personally share moral responsibility for this murderous ethnic cleansing that you firmly support.
Hamas has done far worse than "be big meanies".  And it's not ethnic cleansing.  It's a human rights issue, certainly, but calling it ethnic cleansing is hyperbole.

No, that's essentially your position. Hamas has committed thought-crimes, and would do XYZ nasty thing if given the chance. Therefore, a war of aggression is justified. This war, of course, will not make those acts less likely - indeed it will make them more so. Nonetheless, Hamas is mean in the abstract, so we must bomb nearby hospitals and schools and steal their country.

Quote
Quote
Complete nonsense. The conflict would end tomorrow if Israel wanted it to. Hamas has violated some ceasefire agreements - usually after lengthy provocation; Israel has yet to honour a single ceasefire agreement with Palestinians ever. For example, the 2009 war followed years of peace. Hamas obsessively enforced a rocket halt, as it was required to do, and rocket fire ended. Meanwhile, Israel maintained its criminal blockade in violation of the agreement (later the IDF murdered a number of Turks attempting to bring aid to starving Palestinians who had been denied it by the criminal Israeli government). In 2008, Hamas offered a long-standing truce; Israel started bombing. Hamas got all the blame for the conflict.

As for your other claim - that Hamas is the root cause of the conflict - you're just lying. The root cause is Israel's occupation of Palestinian territory. Indeed, it is an advantage to Israel if Hamas appears or is in fact extremist. This war, for instance, began as a response to Hamas' frustrating settlement with Fatah, which was a threat to Israel's international standing. If the Palestinians are peacefully, reasonably demanding an end to the conflict and the Israelis reject their offer, Israel will eventually lose international support and be forced to accept peace. Can't have that - we have to create extremism to justify our annexation. How? Bombing.
Are you completely out of touch with reality?

1.  The conflict began before the blockade, what makes you think it would end if Israel lifts it?

Indeed. The conflict began as a result of Israel's occupation of the West Bank. It will end the day Israel is willing to give up that conquest and not one moment before, as would any other war of colonial aggression.

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2.  Hamas did not enforce a rocket halt.  The fire slowed, sure, but it was still there.

Firmly and fanatically enforced. Israel systematically violated the agreement, of course with your strong moral complicity.

Quote
3.  What I mean to say is that in 2005, there was legitimate hope for peace.  Israel had pulled out of Gaza, and was planning to do the same for the West Bank.

Then it chose not to and the conflict continued. That was nobody's decision but Israel's and the resulting war nobody's fault but Israel's.

Quote
Then Hamas took power were elected. The fact that they were elected does not make them any less of an existential threat to Israel.

Hamas is as much an existential threat to the Israeli state as the Indian National Congress were to the British one. This is a joke.

In any case, your private opinion is no basis for public policy - and, even if Hamas were an actual military force, ending the conflict would destroy them and end that threat.

Quote
4.  If anything, Hamas are the conniving ones.  Their "us or them" mentality with regards to Israel has led to them repeatedly provoking Israel and then crying foul when they retaliate.

For instance, in 2009 Hamas chose to provoke Israel's attack by offering a long-term peace settlement, supported by every Arab state in the region. This was a drastic threat to the Israeli state in Palestine, and might well have defeated it. In 2014, Hamas again provoked Israeli attack by ending internecine conflict with Fatah, agreeing to a unified non-violent peace offensive and creating an enormous threat to Israel's settlement program. The IDF had no choice but to force Hamas away from the negotiating table. In both cases, Hamas acted extremely deviously is pursuing peace - while Israel was transparently acting in defence of their ethnic cleansing program. Loathsome cunning!
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Offline ironbite

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #250 on: August 24, 2014, 12:52:18 am »
Best part of this argument?

Ironbite-I got UP and Lt. Fred on ignore so Magnus looks like he's arguing with himself.

Offline Cerim Treascair

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #251 on: August 24, 2014, 01:18:48 am »
It IS rather a trainwreck if you could see the whole fight, Ibby.  It's impressive.
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Offline ironbite

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #252 on: August 24, 2014, 01:41:07 am »
That I agree.

Ironbite-but it's much more amusing this way.

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #253 on: August 24, 2014, 01:50:44 am »
It IS rather a trainwreck if you could see the whole fight, Ibby.  It's impressive.

I have a lot more respect for Ultimate Paragon's position than yours. At least he gives a shit, or doesn't have active contempt for people who care about others. Seriously, this is highly offensive of you.
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http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

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Offline Cerim Treascair

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #254 on: August 24, 2014, 02:00:30 am »
You find MY position offensive, Fred? Me, who desires peace, who thinks that all the idiots should just duke it out and let the reasonable folks actually have civil discourse?

Huh.  Interesting stance you take.  I'll keep that in mind.
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