Author Topic: Why is Creatonism so core to some Religions?  (Read 8448 times)

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Offline Material Defender

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Why is Creatonism so core to some Religions?
« on: February 11, 2013, 03:04:25 pm »
I grew up fairly religious child. Catholic, that kind of thing. When I read about how the Earth was created in the bible early on, I took it as fact... but after reading the science texts and being taught about big bang theory and evolution, I decided that the bible was metaphorical and while still an interesting book, not a 100% factual certainly. There was no test of my faith, no major interruption in my faith. Even without consulting the actual Catholic position on this. My sexuality was far more influential in turning away from my religion than anything with evolution or other things since it mattered in my every day life and the expression of faith. Evolution versus creationism is just interpretations of the universe, but have no influence on how one expresses their faith. God doesn't punish ignorance, God punishes willful wrong doing I knew very well.

So why is it that these other faiths consider it so very key that you be a creationist? To the point their dumbing down America willfully? I want insight, not mocking.
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Offline Star Cluster

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Re: Why is Creatonism so core to some Religions?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2013, 03:58:10 pm »
Short answer?  For most Christians, because it is in the Bible.  So if it is in the Bible, creationism has to be true.  If it isn't, then that means the Bible is wrong about something, and if it is wrong in their eyes on even one thing, then it could wrong on everything.  Therefore, they have a vested interest in creationism being true.
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Offline Material Defender

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Re: Why is Creatonism so core to some Religions?
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2013, 04:20:13 pm »
Short answer?  For most Christians, because it is in the Bible.  So if it is in the Bible, creationism has to be true.  If it isn't, then that means the Bible is wrong about something, and if it is wrong in their eyes on even one thing, then it could wrong on everything.  Therefore, they have a vested interest in creationism being true.

Why can't they take the metaphorical escape route? There's plenty of things written in the past that were metaphorical as opposed to literal.
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Offline Star Cluster

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Re: Why is Creatonism so core to some Religions?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2013, 05:18:58 pm »
Basically the same reason.   And yes, there are some verses and/or chapters of the Bible they say are metaphorical or allegorical, but they get to pick and choose which those are.  And it is usually the ones that make some other verse or chapter contradictory.  But for the creation story, it is the first thing told about in the Bible.  It is the first chapter of the first book, Genesis.  For many Christians, if not most of them, it is necessary that the creation story as told in Genesis be the true and accurate account of how their God set everything into motion.  It simple has to be that way.  There's no reason for it other than it has to be as it is written in Genesis.   

If they start accepting that Genesis is, in fact, not true as written, then they feel their entire faith system comes crumbling down as it would be possible to remove God from the equation.  And they just can't have that happen.
The heavens convince me there is no god.

Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.--Steven Weinberg

Religion can never reform mankind because religion is slavery--Robert G. Ingersoll

I don't know why people compare George Carlin to God. He's great and all, but he's no George Carlin.-Anon.

Offline Material Defender

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Re: Why is Creatonism so core to some Religions?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2013, 05:29:55 pm »
Basically the same reason.   And yes, there are some verses and/or chapters of the Bible they say are metaphorical or allegorical, but they get to pick and choose which those are.  And it is usually the ones that make some other verse or chapter contradictory.  But for the creation story, it is the first thing told about in the Bible.  It is the first chapter of the first book, Genesis.  For many Christians, if not most of them, it is necessary that the creation story as told in Genesis be the true and accurate account of how their God set everything into motion.  It simple has to be that way.  There's no reason for it other than it has to be as it is written in Genesis.   

If they start accepting that Genesis is, in fact, not true as written, then they feel their entire faith system comes crumbling down as it would be possible to remove God from the equation.  And they just can't have that happen.

It seems like a 4 or 5 year old way of dealing with doubt. I figure there has to be a more complicated reason than that because it seems like you're just setting yourself up for failure that way.
The material needs a defender more than the spiritual. If there is a higher power, it can defend itself from the material. Thus denotes 'higher power'.

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Offline Sleepy

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Re: Why is Creatonism so core to some Religions?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2013, 05:34:42 pm »
I agree with Star Cluster, since the creation of the world in Genesis acts as a basic foundation for everything else that more literal bible interpreters may believe.
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Offline Rime

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Re: Why is Creatonism so core to some Religions?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2013, 05:43:59 pm »
I just keep asking that same old question.

"Is God not intelligent enough to accomplish what needs to be done without breaking the rules he apparently set this universe up with?"

And the answer is no, partly because he needs to periodically "kick science's ass" to validate his fan base, because, you know, that pesky science just keeps getting in the way of their magical deity.  And for the reason Star Cluster outlined; they're too invested in thinking that EVERYTHING in the bible needs to be true and if there's a single thing that's in error, the entire house falls down.
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Offline Lachrymose

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Re: Why is Creatonism so core to some Religions?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2013, 06:00:07 pm »


It seems like a 4 or 5 year old way of dealing with doubt. I figure there has to be a more complicated reason than that because it seems like you're just setting yourself up for failure that way.

Well, these are the people who think "child-like faith" is a virtue.

Offline Eldalar

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Re: Why is Creatonism so core to some Religions?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2013, 06:17:32 pm »
I also once read the explanation, that the christian creation story has to be literal truth, because otherwise the original sin commited by Adam and Eve wouldn't really have happened. That in turn would make Jesus's sacrificing himself at the cross to god to atone for that original sin rather meaningless, since the sin doesn't exist anymore. That would destroy the whole concept of Jesus being humanities savior and invalidate large portions of the teaching they beliefe in.
Not sure how widespread or theologically sound that reasoning is though, since most of the time the reasoning I read is: "The bible says it, therefore it is true.".

Muslim creationists seem to be the same as in that they assume the quran to be absolute and perfect truth and therefore everything in it including the creation story has to be perfect or the whole thing comes crashing down. Haven't really seen one, but I assume the same would go for a jew creationist, except with the bible instead of the quran.

Offline Old Viking

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Re: Why is Creatonism so core to some Religions?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2013, 07:30:14 pm »
The majority of those who hold to creationism seem to be spectacularly uneducated.  Yes, they insist on a literal interpretation of Genesis, but we must also consider that anything "sciency" is gobbledygook to them.  Science makes then feel inadequate and they are hostile to it.
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Re: Why is Creatonism so core to some Religions?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2013, 11:19:17 pm »
I suppose the other question is why they can't accept it as metaphorical despite the fact there's two versions of the same story side by side. That seems like it'd blow such literalism out of the water. I always favored the 1st chapter story over the 2nd one because I felt like Man was on a pedestal instead of being the initiator of evil.


I also once read the explanation, that the christian creation story has to be literal truth, because otherwise the original sin commited by Adam and Eve wouldn't really have happened. That in turn would make Jesus's sacrificing himself at the cross to god to atone for that original sin rather meaningless, since the sin doesn't exist anymore. That would destroy the whole concept of Jesus being humanities savior and invalidate large portions of the teaching they belief in.

Hrm, well Jesus sacrificed himself to atone for everyone's sins to allow them into Heaven. Some interpret him smashing the gates of hell in that NOBODY can go to hell as well. Original Sin more or less I've heard told to me the idea of the fact that we brought free will onto ourselves and we cannot undo it whether we like it or not, thus we have to take it with its ups and downs. Some Christians accept it as well as a metaphorical 'sin' in abandoning hunting gathering societies for the 'forbidden fruit' of agriculture, since one involves a lot more down time and the other is a lot more labor intensive.
The material needs a defender more than the spiritual. If there is a higher power, it can defend itself from the material. Thus denotes 'higher power'.

"Not to know is bad. Not to want to know is worse. Not to hope is unthinkable. Not to care is unforgivable." -Nigerian Saying

Offline Rime

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Re: Why is Creatonism so core to some Religions?
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2013, 04:11:39 am »
Yes, but many of your "good Christians" accept what's told by their pastors without doing research like that, and those pastors are too preoccupied with trying to reclaim what "science has taken from them God."  They're also much more concerned with their influence and prestige, thinking Jesus wanted an army of lawyers who base all their arguments on their book of laws.  Ironically, just like the Pharisees were supposed to have been doing.
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Offline Vypernight

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Re: Why is Creatonism so core to some Religions?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2013, 04:33:33 am »
It's all about control.  Everything else is a bunch of bullshit to make themselves look like victims, but deep down, it's about people controlling what others think.  If they really wanted to push an alternate view, they'd accept all creation views and not immediately leap to, "God did it."

Hypocritical powerhungry assholes.
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Re: Why is Creatonism so core to some Religions?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2013, 04:34:13 am »
Religious conservatism has the same root cause as most other types of conservatism - it's a ward against perceived threats.

Liberal minded folks probably love the complexity and weirdness of a world divorced from creation myths. Complexity and weirdness gives many conservatives the vapors and causes others to reach for their 12 gauge.

Not to say that creation myths aren't weird, but weird in a bounded, predictable sort of way that leaves a grumpy patriarch in charge.

Offline Star Cluster

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Re: Why is Creatonism so core to some Religions?
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2013, 08:16:41 am »
I suppose the other question is why they can't accept it as metaphorical despite the fact there's two versions of the same story side by side. That seems like it'd blow such literalism out of the water. I always favored the 1st chapter story over the 2nd one because I felt like Man was on a pedestal instead of being the initiator of evil.

Most Christians don't believe that Genesis 1 and 2 are two separate versions of the creation story, but rather that Gen 2 is an extension of Gen 1.  They view Gen 1 as a quick summary or generalization of the creation week and then Gen 2 as a more detailed look at the creation of mankind.  They don't see a conflict between the two.  Although, as Rime said, most of them haven't really taken a close enough look at it to see the differences.

I also once read the explanation, that the christian creation story has to be literal truth, because otherwise the original sin commited by Adam and Eve wouldn't really have happened. That in turn would make Jesus's sacrificing himself at the cross to god to atone for that original sin rather meaningless, since the sin doesn't exist anymore. That would destroy the whole concept of Jesus being humanities savior and invalidate large portions of the teaching they belief in.

Hrm, well Jesus sacrificed himself to atone for everyone's sins to allow them into Heaven. Some interpret him smashing the gates of hell in that NOBODY can go to hell as well. Original Sin more or less I've heard told to me the idea of the fact that we brought free will onto ourselves and we cannot undo it whether we like it or not, thus we have to take it with its ups and downs. Some Christians accept it as well as a metaphorical 'sin' in abandoning hunting gathering societies for the 'forbidden fruit' of agriculture, since one involves a lot more down time and the other is a lot more labor intensive.

If we're going to get into original sin, which admittedly is another part of why Christians must have the creation to be true, freewill, and Jesus' "sacrifice," then this is going to be a loooong thread.
The heavens convince me there is no god.

Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.--Steven Weinberg

Religion can never reform mankind because religion is slavery--Robert G. Ingersoll

I don't know why people compare George Carlin to God. He's great and all, but he's no George Carlin.-Anon.