FSTDT Forums
Community => Society and History => Topic started by: Igor on September 12, 2012, 09:16:47 am
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With all of these crazy -kin types popping up I feel the need to clarify a few things about my own beliefs and how they relate to this nonsense. I'm a little annoyed with all the strawmen and category-lumping I see.
Now, please hear me out here, before I start, please don't just read the following statement and jump on me for being another crazy fundie type:
I am a wolf therian. Now, hear me out for a minute here, please. What I believe isn't that complicated, and it isn't any more of a stretch than any other spiritual belief (and I know for a fact that not everyone here is an atheist). Essentially, I feel a deep connection to wolves to the point where I identify, not just with them, but as one. I know damn well I'm a human being, and it's actually really important that therians never forget that, it's really stressed in the more intelligent parts of the community. I'm not trying to make any stupid claims about how special I am or that I can P-shift** (nobody can, while it'd be awesome, that's stuck in the realm of fantasy), all I'm saying is that I, personally, have this belief and that it happens to be a very large part of my self identity.
Now, about accusations of appropriating the trans* movement or anything similar: I've never known any therians to do this, unless they're silly 14-year-olds who really don't know what they're talking about. I have NOT been discriminated against for being a therian in any meaningful way, I'm not being denied any rights as a therian, nor do I run the risk of being beaten up or straight-up murdered for it. If anyone does make a claim like that, I can tell you now that they are full of shit.
Therians, as a rule, generally have VERY little to do with otherkin. Even though we are technically a subset of otherkin, you're not going to find very many therians who will openly admit to this, and given the recent influx of... well, otakukin and similar, I now know why. But if you want to know something, most of us hate that shit, because it makes it hard for us to mind our own business identifying with actual animals that exist when there's a guy next door making stupid claims about being an alien or Naruto or a toaster, or all three, because why should anyone listen to us any more than NaruToaster?
Well, for me, at least, plausibility comes into play a little, as it's easier to say that you have the spirit of something that could plausibly even have a spirit, if you believe in such things in the first place. (There are a few attempts to explain therianthropy scientifically as well, placing it as a firmly mental thing, but I'm not going to go over the details here.)
As for the difference between therians and otherkin, therians are strictly animals that really exist, and otherkin believe that their soul (or whatever) is nonhuman in a more general sense, but the term is generally restricted to mythological creatures. Mythological, mind, not anime characters, certainly not specific ones. For people who believe in any kind of spirit world (as some people do) it's plausible that such mythological creatures could reside in such a world. Anime characters? No. Inanimate objects? Calling Poe's law on those ones. All of them. Or at least it started that way, started as parody before people started taking it seriously.
Oh, and if I ever hear a therian that I know say "check your privilege" I will punch them in the face, I swear, because as I said, we aren't being denied any rights, the most we ever get is mockery from people who have only heard of the crazy types and silly documentaries about "animal people". Oh, and that one episode of CSI, because we all know that's totally a good source of info on subcultures.
Getting back on track, I just want to reiterate that while I have my own problems with the community (namely 14 year old idiots and people who make stupid claims), I do want everyone to be aware that we're not all fundies about it, and please do not lump us all in the same category. I have this little belief about myself and who I am, and whether I'm right or wrong, it's certainly not hurting anybody. Having said that, the 14 year olds are likely to say things like "lol i hate humans" but that's just teenage misanthropy, I went through it too, they grow out of it. The ones who don't are generally yelled at or made fun of by the more intelligent members of the community anyway, because they make us all look like idiots.
So I don't expect everyone to just believe me, I don't want people to go around picking animals for themselves either, that's a mistake a lot of people make. Therianthropy by nature is a very personal thing, and it takes sometimes a long journey of personal discovery to realize it. The best way I can describe it is that it feels right somehow, like when I found out about it a lot of things in my life suddenly made sense. Am I trying to be a speshul snowflake? No, and I sincerely hope I don't come off as one, I just want to make clear that not all of us are nutbar.
So that's that, went on a little longer than I expected to. TL;DR: When I say I'm a wolf, I'm not referring to a character or a persona I've created for myself (I refuse to say "fursona") I'm simply talking about me. My inner wolf, you might say, who is not a separate entity, but an integral part of my identity. It's who I am, no more than that.
**physical shift.
*here's a footnote because I know you're looking for one.
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I can only speak for myself, but: The only people I'm referring to when posting about otherkin/therians in the SJA thread are those who treat it as the cross-species equivalent of being transgender, rather than people like you, who treat it as a form of spirituality (or something akin to spirituality).
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What Mlle said. I don't mind or wish to ridicule any of what Randomwolf described. Besides, a guy with a K9 av has to be cool, ya know. ;)
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I will be honest, I perceive most/all other-kin as delusional. I am even willing to include furies in that list. However, I would like to say that it just my own opinion and I follow a live and let live approach.
Admittedly I can have a degree of respect for the spiritual position described by Randomwolf42. I can actually understand a spiritual position that sees oneself as either having the soul of an animal (from the religious re-incarnation point of view), or that of having a spiritual animal companion. Sure, both positions have about as much backing their validity as almost all religion, but unlike essentially all other-kin I have seen, I cant point out that it is blatantly bullshit either. Hence I can respect it as a viable form of spirituality.
I would like some clarity though on exactly the spiritual position of this animal kinship.(I am not trying to mock, These are actually honest questions asked from someone ignorant and trying to understand.) How do you know that you have a connection to wolves specifically. Do you interact with wolves on a regular basis? Have you interacted with a wolf before? I am curious because where does the wolf aspect of the spirituality come from exactly. I ask this because I have a good connecting with mammals and get along exceptionally well with house pets and such, so I could understand a spiritual connection to say dogs. However wolves are very removed from human society so I would like to know about the foundation of the wolf spirituality specifically.
Similarly, I would like to understand the exact nature of this animal spirituality. As I mentioned is it seen as an extension of re-incarnation spirituality in that you believe that your soul is that of a wolf, and that is based on that soul being a wolf in the previous life? Is it instead a human soul that has the additional soul of a wolf alongside / inside them as well? This would be similar to the Native American animal companion/ spirit companion beliefs. Alternatively is this belief that your soul is simply that of a wolf but placed in the wrong body, or is it something else entirely? I will admit to being a pit prejudiced here in that I have little or less respect for the last option. However I would really like to understand the core of this belief.
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Because therianthropy is so personally subjective, it's not easy to answer these kinds of questions, but I'll give it a go here. There's an old joke that if you ask five therians what the definition of it is you'll get six different answers, because everybody sees it a little bit differently.
This is going to be kind of disappointing to hear, but as for why a wolf, it's what feels right, I don't know how else to put it. It makes sense to me in a way nothing else does. Same for how I know I actually am a therian, it feels right to me. You would be surprised how many posts we get on this other forum I'm on where somebody will show up and ask "Hey, am I a therian? here are a bunch of things I think might be symptoms" and then they'll spout off a list of things like how they like raw meat and the moon affects their mood and whatnot. Those things have nothing to do with whether or not one is a therian, at all. The answer to that question is basically "If you have to ask, you most likely aren't one." If you find out about therianthropy and what it actually is and say "Hey, that's me, I've always felt that way", you very often don't have to ask.
I've noticed a lot of therians are wild animals, so it has little to do with how much interaction an animal has with humans. I happen to know, off the top of my head, three other wolves, a cat (domestic), an otter, a raccoon/dragon*, at least one fox, and a husky (My husky <3).
Now, as for the nature of it, it's not a companion animal or spirit guide, that's a different thing again, but I have heard the words "spirit animal" used to describe therianthropy before. When I explain it, people often ask me if it's like what First Nations people believe, and I do think there are a lot of similarities, but it's not quite the same. To make things simpler I generally answer "Yeah, kinda like that" though. Because it's, well, kinda like that, but not exactly. A lot of therians do see it as having been a wolf in a past life, and they try to connect with that past life as much as they can, but not every therian believes that, we don't all believe in reincarnation at all.
As a side-note, therianthropy is a weird little thing that exists outside of religion, it's not one, because by definition you can't become one, you either are or you aren't (this is where a lot of people start acting like entitled assholes, which is where the speshul snowflake reputation comes from). A lot of people try to reconcile it with their religions, to varying degrees of success. There's a whole forum of Christian therianthropes which has managed to completely make it work with their beliefs. I've never gone there because I'm not Christian, but there you go, that's a thing.
Actually, to amend my statement before, there are a few isolated cases of abuse of therians because of their belief, but what that generally is is somebody's fundie family can't take the fact that their kid believes something that isn't in the Bible, and thinks it's Of Satan™, so they go ape shit. But that doesn't happen very often. We have a fundie problem too :P
Well, I hope this answers a couple of questions, I'm tired as all get out, so if it doesn't, I'm sorry. If you need more clarification (you probably do) let me know.
*poly-were**, it's something that I, myself, am still extremely iffy on, but he's really smart about this kind of thing, he doesn't like people to blindly agree with him though, he very much encourages everyone to come to their own conclusions. He believes he's a poly-were, and while I'm skeptical of it, we agree to disagree about that one.
**were- is a generic term for a therian, werewolf, werefox, were-raccoon. "I'm aware, I'm also a were". When I say "I'm a werewolf", this is what I'm talking about, I'm not saying I'm a movie werewolf, it's just slang that exists in the therian community.
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Eh, I don't really see any harm in this. Rock and roll, Random.
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To me, what you're saying is that wolves are a part of your identity or something you identify with. That's not offensive or even particularly weird to me.
What's offensive and pisses me off are people who call any differences "privilege," invent terms to make themselves look like a minority to feel special (e.g. "demisexual," which describes like 95% of all humans), and appropriate queer terminology and struggles and equate it with their own for attention or to feel like ~special snowflakes~ ("transethnic," "transpecies," etc. which cannot fucking exist).
More power to you!
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Exactly, Shy, that's what I'm saying. I actually get really pissed off at -kin types that make all of these stupid claims so that now instead of saying "Hey, I'm a therian, I believe [what I just said, but in brief]", I have to... well, do this. I'm kind of annoyed that it got far enough that I felt it necessary to make this thread in the first place and explain myself.
Having said that, thank you for understanding, everyone. It makes me feel a lot better to know that there is a distinction being made from what I mean when I say I'm a therian and... all those people on tumblr.
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Reminds me a lot of some native American beliefs. Shamanism and the like. Don't worry, Random. You're cool. :)
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Like I said, it's kinda like that, I've noticed that there are actually a lot of Native therians out there, actually. I know one person who says therianthropy is inherently shamanistic, though I take that with a grain of salt, that particular person has a few odd ideas, he has this whole timeline of therianthropy (in various forms) throughout history and says werewolves (as he insists on calling us - note that this is just slang within the community, people rarely make claims about physically shifting, and if they do they're usually laughed off of whatever site they're on unless they can provide photographic evidence, which they never can) were very important to the early Christian church. So again, grain of salt.
There are a few things I think I should elaborate on at some point, when I'm less tired and lazy, and I think I'm going to edit up my OP and post it elsewhere so I can actually link it to people who ask, because I keep forgetting that posts in F&B are hidden from unregistered users. I'm not always very good at explaining things, but if anyone else has any questions about it, this is something I could go on about for a long time.
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I had a thought enter my mind and I would be interested in Randomwolf42's opinion on it.
I personally don't believe i otherkin. However, like all religions and spiritualities there are generally reasons for why people feel a certain way. I was thinking that the foundation for the otherkin feelings comes from the fact that we as humans really do have multiple aspects to our personalities. We have 3 primary spheres of brain functioning. The reptilian brain which handles the autonomous system, the mammalian brain which handles instincts and the primate brain which is our conscious self. Also, as much as we like to deny it, we are animals and to be blunt really not special. As such we still have many strong instinctive animal instincts.
I was wondering if perhaps for otherkin they have a closer than normal relationship with their more animalistic instinctive aspect of their brains. Hence they feel more like an animal on the inside underneath their conscious self. They would be consciously aware they are human and could function normally as a human but would be exerting a degree of keeping their instincts in control all or most of the time. Hence they would feel like they have an animal caged inside them.
To take this further though, the reason why people associate with wolves and other animals other than apes is because we are apes still, that aspect never went away. To claim we have an ape as our other self would be accurate, but lack any kind of impact especially when describing the feeling. I think it is a kind of association, if the instincts are aggressive one would associate an aggressive animal like wolves or bears etc to the animal feeling within. The emotions and instincts of this inner animal would also seem exaggerated because they would have to be to be noticed by our conscious minds. Hence like I said an aggressive feeling would feel more like the aggression of a traditionally predatory animal than that of a primate.
This is just a thought, and I would like to know what others think about it.
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I remember having a few conversations about this before, but that's definitely one way of looking at it, yes. You could say that we have these feelings, these instincts, which are connected and identified by our subconscious as a given animal. I wouldn't say, though, that the instincts are necessarily aggressive, though. I like to think I'm a fairly calm person, though I will say I get very defensive and protective about people and things I care about, that defensiveness being actually part of why I made this thread in the first place.
Interesting thing about primates, actually. For the longest time everybody thought there was no such thing as a primate therian, simply because... there weren't any. It was actually thought to be impossible, partly for the reasons you stated, but I actually know someone who says he's a monkey. His presence made a lot of people re-think things.
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Not to resurrect my own thread, but I'm going to resurrect my own thread. I'm not ready to let this die, there's a lot of stuff about this I haven't covered/ For one thing, I have neglected to mention that while therians and otherkin are kinda somewhat similarish, we tend to be skeptical of otherkin in general, and really don't have anything to do with them. Otherkin, as a reminder, being mythological creatures whereas therians are all actual animals that actually exist, by definition. As a small update, I've started to get slightly more active in the therian community and they were actually somewhat unaware of all the tumblrkin types out there, and the general reaction to them is pretty much the same reaction I had: "Oh great, more bad press. Just what we need."
On the other side of things, as far as bullshit calling goes, there's this meme going around on therian boards that "the veil will fall" and something about the end of the world, probably brought on by the Mayan calendar bullshit. Just about nobody takes it seriously, and a friend of mine (A fairly well-known [in the community] troll who nonetheless knows his shit) was all "Ooh, are we a death cult now? I wanna be in a death cult!" because he's weird like that. Again, more bad press and eye-rolling was to be had.
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Just out of curiosity, are there any therians (as in, considered therians and not otherkin) who identify with extinct animals, like dinosaurs, mammoths, or even stuff like thylacines or dodos?
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That's actually a very interesting question. I'm inclined to say there are but I don't personally know any. I'll ask around.
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I wonder how the T-Rex Therians deal with having arms that are actually useful? </tease>
Seriously, though, I imagine there are, but I haven't seen any yet.
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Oh hey, found an answer! Not a very good one, but I found one. Now, I haven't actually met any, but there is a page (a stub) on the therianthropy wikia page about "Paleotherians", those being therians who identify as extinct animals. Of course, I can't say anything for the validity of this or how accepted it is in the community, but the fact that there's a page for it means at the least it's been observed before.
(Edit: Die, misplaced semicolon!)
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Not to bump my own thread again, but bump.
I haven't managed to come up with anything else to say about this yet, which is odd, because I've only barely scratched the surface. I guess if anyone has some serious questions I can keep answering those, and I'm thinking maybe, since no actual flaming happened here (...yet) that maybe this should be moved up to the society subforum, if that's alright.
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Are there therians who identify as fictional animals, such as Roos or Pikkards from the Ys games? Or does that fall under otherkin?
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Definitely falls under otherkin. Actually I think that's the standard-ish definition of otherkin, they're fictional (usually mythological, dragons and such) creatures. Actually I think there's a subset of otherkin for that (Fictionkin? I don't know, I don't know much about -kin types), but then, there's a subset of otherkin for EVERYTHING.
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Actually, I do have a question.
Why are dragonkin sometimes considered therians? Dragons are, as far as I know, a mythological/fantastical creature, which would definitely put them in with otherkin...
Or is it their prevalence in pretty much every culture that lends them a bit more credence than, say, Na'avikin?
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Hmm... I'm going to have to ask around about that one. I checked therian.wikia, but all it says is:
Some Dragons, though generally classified as Otherkin, consider themselves Therians as they identify with this community better. In order to avoid offending anyone, it is often better to refer to them as Dragon-Kin unless otherwise specified.
The rest of the article needs serious fact checking, it mentions things like "abilities of Advanced Therians" including "object manipulation", which I've NEVER heard of before. I'm going to have to talk to SherlawkDragon about that, the wiki needs... a lot of work.
...the fuck is an "Advanced Therian"? I've been awere (terrible pun, shut up) for a few years now, and I've never heard of that before... as soon as I see Sherlawk online I'll ask him about that.
Edit: Yeah, Sherlawk has no idea what the hell that is either, it's been removed.
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Bit of a mini-update, on another forum there was a thread about someone doing a study about therianthropy and ended up on the Werelist, which is sorta notorious in the therian community for not being a good source of accurate information about the community (at least not anymore, I hear it was good once). Anyways, WolfVanZandt (who, himself, has some very.. interesting ideas about therianthropy and religion, but that's another story) said this, and I think it's relevant:
It's still a concern, though. Let's say a researcher goes onto one of these uber-flaky sites (I'll not name names here) and looks around - or even goes onto it as one of several sites.......how are they to distinguish between Weres, role players, and wannabees? How corrupted will the results be? Of course, if he follows it up with some real life contacts, it might work out better. I wonder if there's a Granola Scale out there.......
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Actually, I do have a question.
Why are dragonkin sometimes considered therians? Dragons are, as far as I know, a mythological/fantastical creature, which would definitely put them in with otherkin...
Claim Komodo Dragon and run with it? They are pretty badass.
Though I could see established mythological creatures getting a bit of a pass since they're a long lasting part of culture if not part of reality. I'll admit I have far less of a problem with Dragon kin than I do some random chunk of a fantasy/sifi movie.
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Actually, I do have a question.
Why are dragonkin sometimes considered therians? Dragons are, as far as I know, a mythological/fantastical creature, which would definitely put them in with otherkin...
Claim Komodo Dragon and run with it? They are pretty badass.
Indeed they are bad-ass, but I've never really considered them "dragons" for the purposes of any of my dragon-related interests.
Not to mention I can't just go "Oh, that's bad-ass, so therefore, that's me" :P
On their own merit, however, they're pretty awesome and kinda scary.
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Dragons are, as far as I know, a mythological/fantastical creature
That's what they want you to think...
On another note, I wonder if there are any therian cryptozoologists, who claim that the creatures they identify with are real, we just haven't discovered them. For instance, might there be some yeti-kin?
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Well, the -kin suffix indicates otherkin, which for all intents and purposes here indicates a mythological creature. I know I said all that before about one technically being a subgroup of the other, but that's the sort of technicality that most people ignore, so insofar as it matters in any real way, otherkin and therians are completely separate things. Related, but distinct. Therians don't call ourselves whatever-kin, we usually call ourselves were-whatever. Yes, this technically makes me a werewolf.
Now, to actually answer the question... I'm fairly certain anyone claiming to be a yeti therian would have a very hard time getting themselves taken seriously anywhere. I'm not going to say it's impossible (some parts of the community are weird...) but they'd have a hard time of it, mostly the 'convincing everyone you're not a troll' part. They'd have an easier time in the otherkin community, though I admit I'm rather... reluctant to believe 99% of otherkin, the notable exception being dragons. Some things set off my bullshit meter more than others. Hypocritical of me? Probably, but a lot of that depends on what individual people tell me, too.
...apparently it's Ramble Time.
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Now, I'm not being sarcastic or smart-assed with this statement. I really mean it:
This thread has been informative and fascinating to me. Thanks, Randomwolf.
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That's what I'm here for! Also, thank you for taking the time to read what I say and not just automatically throwing me in with the tumblrkin. Now, for something relevant, I actually joined another therian social networking site, and I'm hoping there's going to be less drama this time then there was on werespace. They have a decent explanation of terminology and rules against e-packs and elitism, which were two of the biggest problems I ran into. Hopefully now if there are any questions I get asked here that I can't answer someone'll be able to help me.
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And now to possibly destroy any credibility I may have and talk about shifting!~ Now, it's not what you're probably thinking, and if it was you'd be right in thinking me crazy, but it's not, and we'll talk a little bit more about that in a second. What is shifting? Well, in therian slang, shifting is a change (or shift) in one way or another towards one's animal side. I managed to find a fairly decent list of the different types of shift, so I can go through them and briefly explain each one and my take on it (or experiences with it, as the case may be.)
Shifting Terms:
Astral Shift - A shift experienced in the astral plane.
I've had approximately no experience with this, I don't tend to have much to do with the whole "astral plane" side of things, so the definition here will have to do, I can't elaborate.
Aura Shift - A shift where the external energy, or aura, becomes like one's theriotype.
Once again, no experience here, this is another thing I don't have anything to do with.
Cameo Shift - A shift that a therian experiences as a different type of animal other than their normal theriotype.
This is usually done deliberately, when a therian wants to experience what it's like to be a different animal (as it were), with varying degrees of success.
Dream Shift - A shift experienced while sleeping through dreams.
Sometimes called a D-shift. Oh look, something I've done! Not much to say about this one though, it's a dream where I'm a wolf. I generally do wolfy things in said wolf dream. That's about it. I tend to wake up being one of the other kinds of shifted, though. Some people have control over these, these are the same people who can control any dream they have.
Mental Shift - A shift that is experienced mentally, in which the therian's mindset becomes more like that of the theriotype.
Also called an M-shift. I get these a lot. Most of the time if I say I'm shifted, it's usually a mental shift, phantom shift, or some combination of the two. I've had people in the past ask me what it feels like to be shifted, but honestly, it's hard to put into words exactly what it feels like and how it's different from normal.
Phantom Shift - A shift that gives the sensation of non-existent body parts attached to the body.
A lot of people get hung up on this one, saying (and I'm almost quoting here) that they get weirded out when they hear someone talking about a tail that doesn't exist and how they have to sit weirdly or whatever to accommodate it, and I actually can vouch for this. I know some people will call that a delusion or hallucination, but I can't deny that I felt something that isn't physically there. I've felt phantom wolf ears, a muzzle, and tail before, but I find the muzzle's the easiest to notice for me, I do get a phantom tail sometimes, but it's a lot more subtle. I don't get it nearly as often or strongly as some other therians do. Actually one of my closest friends can feel a phantom tail and ears almost all the time. It's near-constant for him.
Physical Shift - A widely desired but scientifically unproven shift where the body transforms into that of the theriotype of the individual.
Also called a P-shift. This... doesn't happen. At all. It's pretty much listed everywhere because everyone wishes they could do it, and there are some people still looking for a way, but it's generally accepted outside of those few people that it's not possible and not going to happen. Sucks, but that's the way it is. Also of note, there ar people who troll comments sections and forums claiming to have "the secret of p-shifting" or that they're "the lone survivor of a werewolf pack" and they're invariably not sharing the secret in a public forum "because it's too dangerous" or "they're hunting me" but they'll tell you in private, in an email, of course. Once they get your email address, they'll usually either spam you, sign you up for shit, ask for money, or feed you some bullshit ritual taken from the weirder corners of the web that does nothing. I've seen them show up before and they usually get run off the site by people asking for tangible proof, videos, or pictures. None of them have the decency to even pretend to photoshop something, they usually claim they're allergic to cameras or something (or "I don't have a camera" or "I don't want to endanger myself". One wonders why they bothered posting that they're a werewolf on a public forum if they're so afraid of being "hunted".) TL;DR, P-shifting is near-universally considered to be bullshit.
Sensory Shift - A type of shift where the therian's senses become more like their animal counterpart.
I tend to lump this in with mental shifts, not sure why it has its own entry here.
Hopefully that clears some more stuff up, and I'm really hoping I didn't just kill all of my carefully accumulated credibility here :P
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Just another small note I forgot before, not all therians actually experience shifts of any kind. Some of us are always entirely shifted, as it were, so it's more a normal state of being for those individuals - they're always most like their animal side, instead of getting more like it sometimes, as it were. I'm really bad at explaining this, especially since I haven't slept yet, just wanted to note that.
(Edit: because this bumpd the page, if you haven't read my last post on the previous one, please do before responding.)
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An interesting thread. I love to see topics like this, that are so often covered in word salad and drama, discussed in a serious tone.
I have a question from the last page and I'll put it first before my general thoughts so you don't have to read through my opinions to find the point: what distinguishes dream shifting from just dreaming? Is it sort of in general "any dream involving wolves = dream shift" or is it more that the dream in question comes with a change in experience? And, just to clarify, cause I don't know if I'm understanding right, is dream shifting more a projection or an experience? Is it more "I'm shifting into a wolf in reality" (either mentally or whatever) or is it "I'm dreaming that I am a wolf?" I feel like that came out badly but words bad today much yes.
And here are my general opinions so that it's obvious where I stand (note: can be ignored like most opinions).
As with anything, the line for me comes to mechanism. What phenomena demonstrably exists that allows a thing to happen? With therians, the main one (from what I understand) is the soul. If something is real, then it has a mechanism that can be analyzed with the right tools, and for therians, that mechanism seems to be the soul. Without it, then the idea falls back on general psychological explanations. Since there is no current evidence for the soul, then I'm apt to accept therians as belief, explainable by psychology.
Course, that's just me pretending to be an empiricist, and it doesn't diminish the subjective experience anymore than telling me my brain is translating light into understandable images diminishes my enjoyment of watching Southland Tales. I have met some a-hole therians, or those kind who are real pushy with their beliefs (the sort who hide in a fortress of "you can't prove me wrong cause it's how I feel that matters" when you actually try to question their ideas), but they're just the 10%. Honestly, I'm a bit disappointed there isn't more open dialogue like this between any of the emerging subcultures of today and the world at large. Discussion makes people take things seriously, and as long as they aren't politics, the more people who take it seriously, the less damage the 10% of jerks can do.
Edit: Clarified my question.
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Well, at least in my experience, dream shifting is when I dream that I either already am or turn into a wolf in said dream. It's not just any old wolf dream, though, they tend to be a little bit more... realistic than my dreams usually are. It's... well, let me put it this way, the closest anyone's ever going to get to a physical shift is a lucid dream and a dream-shift. I hope that helps.. again, I'm sleep deprived at the moment (I always am when I'm posting here, aren't I?) so forgive me if I'm a little incomprehensible.
Yeah, essentially the point of this thread is to have a little communication open here, there is an incredible amount of bad press about the community already, not helped by the tumblrkin at all, and if you ask one of them to explain their views they'll say something like "it's not my job to educate you". Well, that's sort of what I'm trying to do. "Educate you" sounds kind of asshole-ish, but I've taken it upon myself to explain and answer questions as best as I can, and hopefully get taken somewhat seriously. Also I want to stress that I'm not saying that anyone has to believe me or agree with me, just don't write me off as crazy as soon as I say I'm a therian. It's sort of like how, well, I'm not a Christian, but I'm not going to walk up to anyone who is and tell them flat out that they're wrong because I don't believe what they do. I realize this sounds unfairly accusatory, I'm not saying anyone here is doing that (you're not, and I'm really glad of that), I'm just saying in general.
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This is totally fascinating. Thanks for sharing this stuff with me.
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You know it's a bad sign when I feel like I need to reiterate again that the kinds of people quoted in the Social Justice thread and (as of just now) in the Subculture thread in F&B don't represent me or any other (sane) therian I know (I do know a few that are quite out there, but even they aren't that out there). I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but you know the crazies don't represent the rest of any group.
Now, to give reviving this thread an actual point, here's a completely unrelated tangent: You'd be surprised how many people assume I'm some kind of vegan after I explain all of this to them, reasoning, I think, that if I believe myself to be (on some level) an animal, then I'm somehow morally against eating them. Forgetting of course that wolves are carnivores and that for all that, I'm still a human, and therefore an omnivore. So yeah, don't think there's any reason for me to give up the meat there.
Anyways, that's all I can think of for now. As always, ask me anything (any honest questions, please), and I'll do my best to answer.
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Been lurking on these boards for a long time, and I can't believe I never saw this topic before, so I have to throw in my two cents.
I've been a furry for nearly a decade now, and like many others thought the "otherkin", as I knew them, were wackjobs who were delusional. In fact, just now did I hear of the term "therian". I was extremely naive. That changed when I met my current girlfriend, who never heard of this phenomenon yet just couldn't identify as a human. I told her about this, and initially suggested she is a domestic dog of sorts, a golden retriever most likely. It makes sense since her personality is extremely canine-like in ways that'd take to long to explain. She at first didn't have a clue what I was talking about and after looking into it she decided it sounded right.
I'll have to be brief here since I got to run to work soon... Long story short, after years of experimenting around with different animals, she for the past year or two now identifys as a Ponykin... not the horse, but the MLP:FiM variety. Personally I'm still leery on it, as I personally believe one can have a spirit of an animal that doesn't exist. But, its been consistent for nearly a year. I gotta go now, so I'll add on when I get home. I'll just say, if anybody remembers the poster who identified as Pinkie Pie a while back, that was her.
EDIT, to avoid double posting:
Now that I'm back, I can finish. Yes, she was the Pinkie Pie who showed up and disappeared on these boards randomly. She never chose the Pinkie persona herself, it was pretty much assigned to her by a group of Bronies we used to hang out with. It was bad match for her, to say the least, and thankfully, a thing of the past. She has since taken Fluttershy as her spirit pony, and is much better for it.
From what I can tell, she doesn't actually believe she is Fluttershy, but that its her "avatar" or that she shares a similar spirit to her. I'd go deeper into it, but I really don't understand it myself. I may go see if I can get to explain it herself, but she lately has been a lot more private in her life, so I'm not sure if she would. I'm hoping I didn't share too much already.
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Gonna say, personally I draw the like well before fictionkin. Having said that, I'm not one to devalue someone's personal identity, so I'm going to treat it how everyone else treats me and therianthropy; don't believe it myself, but live and let live. I would argue, though, that one can't have the spirit/soul/what-have-you of something that only started existing after you were born, and I will (always) call people out who claim to be specific characters.
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I guess I like the idea of anthro stuff. Like I sometimes admire how other animals get along, like many parrots. I wish people acted like parakeets in the pet store sometimes, where they just run around and chirp at each other and only hold a grudge for like 2 seconds. Plus they all care for each other, such as preening each other's feathers.
I'd totally give up my life as a human if I could transform into a parakeet in Australia or something. Or a pet one with a loving owner.
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I'm hoping Random doesn't mind if I bump this thread up to talk about what it's like being dragonkin. Though I do want to re-establish some points.
First of all, any otherkin who claims that their brain is of x animal is bullshitting to themselves and everyone else. For one thing, if they did have that similarity... how the fuck are they communicating with us on the internet?
Otherkin and therianthropy is all about the spirit. It's a spiritual thing. It's something that probably dates back to when tribal societies were the norm -- hell, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the first priests was considered to be the incarnation of the sun or something. It's not a new concept and never will be.
Furthermore, any similarities it has to being transgendered are merely superficial. And any otherkin who tries to hijack the movement needs to have some sense slapped into them.
So, now, what is it like for me?
It's remarkably almost exactly like being human, for one thing. I eat human foods, drink human drinks, shit like a human, talk like a human, sleep like a human. You know why? I AM A FUCKING HUMAN.
This is one thing that annoys me about many otherkin, tumblr or aside. They deny their humanity. That's stupid.
On the IRC, I tend to do some dragon-like things. You know why I do this? Because I want to. Simple as that. I'm a role-player. The face I chose for my internet persona is that of a dragon. In addition to being a dragon-kin, I am also a major fan of dragons.
Do I believe dragons exist? Believe it or not, my answer is not "Yes." Maybe they exist on some spiritual level behind a sort of dimensional veil (kinda like the Fair Folk) but other than that, but I'm pretty sure they don't exist in any physical way. Unless you count the lizards of the "draco" genus who are basically sugar-gliders, but lizards. Those are cool.
Am I special? I know some people here would call me that, and not for nice reasons ;D. I'm not sure I can disagree with them on that, either. Am I a special snowflake? No, not really. If anything, I'm actually kind of a loser who suffers from depression. I can think of a lot of people who are better than me. I kinda hate myself, actually.
But enough of the pity party. Here's the thing about being dragonkin, though. It just... kinda is. It's no more important than the fact that I like pizza. I'm not some persecuted minority for it. It doesn't define me anymore than having blonde hair does.
And if you want to poke fun at me for it, great! I'm not going to take myself too seriously about it, and neither should you.
I will say this, though. I've heard that some people consider the whole "otherkin" thing to be inherently offensive to transpeople. And I can see where they're coming from with that. I disagree that it's inherently offensive, but I have seen otherkin that have tried to hijack the movement, and all I can do is apologize that they exist.
That being said, I'm not going to change my spiritual beliefs just because I offended someone. That would be wrong.
Outside of this thread, though, it's not a big deal. It's not my one issue that I'm going to die on a hill for. It's a little quirk. Nothing more, nothing less.
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I have a question.
I know I said something inconsiderate before, but the thing is, it legitimately confuses me. The experiences that -kin / therians go through.
How do you know? How are you supposed to know what your soul is? I do not have much experience looking inward at my soul, as its presumably rather vacant.
I just have to know, how did you find out or come to believe that you are a human with the spirit of a wolf or dragon in Zachski's case? It is a question that has been nagging at me. How do you come to know your soul in such a manner that you can identify as such?
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Are there therians who identify as fictional animals, such as Roos or Pikkards from the Ys games? Or does that fall under otherkin?
By "Roos," do you by any chance refer to those oviparous kangaroos from the Bomberman games?
Also, I've seen myself as human and I always have. An unapologetic one too. For a long time, I've seen people who seen themselves as animals - real or fictional - and other humanoid races (such as elves, Klingons, Vulcans, etc.) ridiculous. Then again, the reason why is because the internet has taught me to be incredibly judgmental. It's sites like the Encyclopedia Dramatica (which can go to hell) and Something Awful that has opened me up to some of the creepiest people on the net, often times for a good reason. And then there are people who do engage in simple escapism while remembering who they are and how to live. I've heard of people roleplaying as charaters from a work or as their own in that universe, and often times they come back to reality unharmed.
...You know, the longer I stay in this community, the more more understanding and less judgmental I become.
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I have a question.
I know I said something inconsiderate before, but the thing is, it legitimately confuses me. The experiences that -kin / therians go through.
How do you know? How are you supposed to know what your soul is? I do not have much experience looking inward at my soul, as its presumably rather vacant.
I just have to know, how did you find out or come to believe that you are a human with the spirit of a wolf or dragon in Zachski's case? It is a question that has been nagging at me. How do you come to know your soul in such a manner that you can identify as such?
Hmm... Let's see... it's hard to answer this without sounding really lame. Well, I've seen thousands of posts now from people listing off various things about themselves, like a preference for raw meat or a distrust of (other) humans or a really good sense of smell or the like, and asking if these things made them therians, or assuming that they were and citing these things as proof. In reality, these things have absolutely nothing to do with it. The answer a lot of the more jaded people on the forums I'm on give is usually something along the lines of "If you have to ask, you aren't one," but to give a more proper answer, it's kind of like... reading what it is and people's different experiences with it resonates with some people, they see something like this and go "Yeah, that's me" or "Suddenly a lot of things make sense now..."
Of course, even that's not a guarantee either way, but if what you read falls into place with things you've felt or experienced and it just feels right, that's what people take as a cue to at least look more into it. I kinda take the same stance when it comes to religion, if a certain mythology or whatever resonates with you, at least look into it. Okay, I know that's kind of a non-answer, but it's not really the kind of thing anyone else can tell you (general you).
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Seeing as how Zach's post was a direct call out to me, I feel the need to respond.
First of all, any otherkin who claims that their brain is of x animal is bullshitting to themselves...
Otherkin and therianthropy is all about the spirit. It's a spiritual thing.
This distinction between spirit and mind is all good and well, except for the numerous short comings it has. First and foremost, I don't believe in spirits, or spectres, or souls. If spirits don't exist, then this whole distinction is dubious at best. At worst, it reverts the difference between otherkins/therians and ordinary people right back to being in the mind, which I will address later. Second, I see this distinction as solely an ad hoc excuse to distance yourselves from criticism. Knowing that transpeople find such claims of "having an animal's brain" offensive, you (general) just move the goal posts further down the line and outside the range of our epistomological knowledge, but clearly a distinction exists between otherkins/therians and ordinary people, as I too will address later.
The other fault that I find with even the "moderate and rational" otherkins/therians is that you two (Zach and Random) have both stated that this is either something "you are or something you aren't" and that it is "unchangeable" (see footnote #1). These statements differ drastically with any understanding of spirituality. Spirituality is something that one is in no way instilled with from birth. While certain societies may guide their offspring towards their belief, their is nothing differentiating one person from another in their specific spirituality. I was born Christian, but I can convert to a Hindu, Muslim, or Zoroastrian at any point by obeying their holy texts and practicing their faith. According to you I just can't become a rabbit-kin. At this point, you're not saying that these things are spiritual, but they're an intrinsic part of yourself that you are projecting onto spirituality. A part of yourself so intrinsic it can't be changed or altered. For clarity, I see religion and spirituality as the same.
The other dangerous thing with this "born this way (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTWoTR2a7JM)" argument is that it legitimizes the very claims that you are trying to distance from otherkin/theriantropy. Saying that there is a legitimate difference that one is born with legitimizes the claims of those nutters seeking "species reassignment surgery." Saying that this difference exists actually puts those nuts on par with GID. Who is anyone else, especially one who doesn't feel these "soul-struggles" and "otherkin struggles," to deny them their claims? Even saying it is a "soul" thing is not much different as "hey, I just want to transition because I have a woman's soul" is the first thing that comes to mind. Identity comes from somewhere, saying that some separate identity comes from the soul is only moving it out of where it really comes from (the brain). Not to mention the difference between this identity coming from the brain or soul is superfluous if not non-existant.
The second reason I find this intrinsic-ness dangerous is that in legitimizing the claims of these nuts, you just reaffirm their delusions and could very well guide them away from getting the mental help they deserve. This is a perfect example of benign nonsense (you and Random) fueling the dangerous nonsense (nuts on tumblr). You can't say "we're born different" or "we can't help it" and then act like those idiots on tumblr are just getting such nonsense from thin air.
Finally, in an unrelated note, these nuts are doing a great disservice to transpeople in general. First, by making this something you are "born as" all you do is legitimize the bigots that trans-people have faced for the last, well forever. Now, they can take away the "born this way argument" because you are also born this way. Not only are you born this way, you don't seek to transition to be wolves and dragons, so why would anyone need to transition genders. Second they can assert that their "what's next, people wanting to be animals" claims correct since it literally happened. Also, otherkins haven't been around "since tribal societies." The earliest known mention of them are from online groups in April 1990. I feel that statement is just projected, like how some bisexuals feel everybody is bi. Finally people who would normally be sympathetic to transpeople now see this nonsense and may think otherwise in their acceptance of us. And for what?
And this brings me back to the post you made last time you tried to prove to me how "otherkin isn't offensive to transpeople." (http://forums.fstdt.net/index.php?topic=2589.msg104629#msg104629) I'm sorry if this is breaking a rule about quoting from other threads, but I find this pertinant for a few reasons. First, I let the topic go to be nice. I don't like arguing about other people's beliefs. I walked away literally to spare you a tongue lashing. Returning to that point, other thing about that post is how it says "Soul-struggles as opposed to the fact that one's gender literally does not match one's sex."
I literally wish I could show you just how dumb that statement is. I wish I could explain how my earliest memory is being upset that I couldn't be Snow White for Halloween. I wish I could explain how when I wanted to grow my hair long as a 6 year old, my parents beat me and physically held me down while cutting my hair. Not to mention how traumatic that was. I wish you could know how terrible it is to repress yourself for almost 20 years, jumping through hoops just to make others happy. I wish I could explain getting envious to the point of crying of other women as they developed. I wish you could know the fear of seeing secondary sex characteristics develop before your eyes and wishing more than anything they would stop. I would like you to see how I cut myself at 13-15 just trying to control some of the pain I was feeling. I wish you could see me and how for the better part of the last decade I was high or drunk more often then I could explain just trying to forget my gender if not OD. I wish you could see how scared I was when I finally did come out to someone, how I was crying tears of fear that they would never speak to me again. I wish you could experience these things, because you can't imagine how much it sucks until you do. That is literally the best way to describe GID, it sucks, it fucking sucks. I doubt therian/otherkin groups have nearly the same suicide rate (30%) that transpeople do. I'm literally in tears right now because when you say things like "soul-struggles as opposed to gender struggles" it trivializes just how horrible my (and others) experiences are. And for what, why does trivialization take place? I honestly don't know. My best guess is so you can be like those pagan kids in High School and rebel against Christianity.
There was one thing you said that was correct. There is a differences between gender struggles and soul struggles. One is real, the other isn't
In closing, I feel Sylvana best summarized my view on this matter
I will be honest, I perceive most/all other-kin as delusional. I am even willing to include furies in that list. However, I would like to say that it just my own opinion and I follow a live and let live approach.
If you want to make this spiritual, then make it spiritual. Stop saying it's something you're "born as" or "something you can't change." Admit it's just meditation in your basement or having a spirit animal. Admit that anyone can be an otherkin/therian. And for the love of God, don't ever say "otherkin-struggles" again. When you say "I can't change who I am" and "If you have to ask, you aren't one" then you two have taken it out of the range of spiritual, not me.
Footnotes
I would argue, though, that one can't have the spirit/soul/what-have-you of something that only started existing after you were born
Not to mention I can't just go "Oh, that's bad-ass, so therefore, that's me" :P
"If you have to ask, you most likely aren't one."
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Random nitpick: Random didn't say "if you have to ask, you aren't one" he's quoting others.
Also the otherkinness of zach and random doesn't affect you and neither does their perception of being born with it or otherwise. Get over it
All I have to say.
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Random nitpick: Random didn't say "if you have to ask, you aren't one" he's quoting others.
This is going to be kind of disappointing to hear, but as for why a wolf, it's what feels right, I don't know how else to put it. It makes sense to me in a way nothing else does. Same for how I know I actually am a therian, it feels right to me. You would be surprised how many posts we get on this other forum I'm on where somebody will show up and ask "Hey, am I a therian? here are a bunch of things I think might be symptoms" and then they'll spout off a list of things like how they like raw meat and the moon affects their mood and whatnot. Those things have nothing to do with whether or not one is a therian, at all. The answer to that question is basically "If you have to ask, you most likely aren't one." If you find out about therianthropy and what it actually is and say "Hey, that's me, I've always felt that way", you very often don't have to ask.
Also the otherkinness of zach and random doesn't affect you and neither does their perception of being born with it or otherwise.
I've already pointed out how the whole shenanigans trivializes GID, how it disparages social acceptance of trans people, and how it is just flat out offensive. I disagree!
Get over it
Ironic, I was thinking the same thing about you.
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Random nitpick: Random didn't say "if you have to ask, you aren't one" he's quoting others.
Also the otherkinness of zach and random doesn't affect you and neither does their perception of being born with it or otherwise. Get over it
All I have to say.
Queen goes through a lengthy discussion of how those things can affect transgendered folks, and all you have to say is "get over it"? That's not exactly a mature response.
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Here's my take on therianthropy.
First of all, I'm a furry, not a therian, and while not the same they are quite similar. I also like to think I've got a good understanding of what its like to be a therian. You actual therians can correct me if I'm wrong about anything.
Being a furry, to me, means I really like animal characters. It goes beyond just "like" though, its... a very deep preference. If you give me an RPG with different races, and one of them is an animal race, I will ALWAYS pick that one. It goes beyond even preference, however. Whenever I roleplay anything I roleplay as an anthropomorphic dog. Whenever I fantasize about anything, I think of myself as an anthropomorphic animal character. I wish I was a dog, or an anthropomorphic dog. I know I can't be, so I fantasize about it.
I was also born this way. I can remember when I was really young I would play a game with my mom where I would pretend to be a dog. I loved certain movies just because they had talking dog characters, even when I never understood what was going on. I could much more easily put myself into those movies; I wanted to be a dog character in those movies. When falling asleep at night I would fantasize about what it would be like to be a dog. And, now that I'm older and have more mature tastes, I prefer my porn to be about anthropomorphic dogs. Not because I necessarily find them more arousing, but because I just like my fiction to have anthropomorphic dogs in it.
I don't believe in spirits or souls either, in a supernatural sense, but you do have things like a consciousness, and a sense of self, and a personality, and that's what some people would call a soul. By that definition, being a furry is a part of my soul.
From what I can tell, being a therian is very similar. It has a lot of the same characteristics of being a furry, but it's more than just *liking* anthropomorphic characters. It goes a step beyond and feels like some part of you inside *is* a particular animal. There's also shifting, which is *technically* a hallucination, similar to phantom limb syndrome.
Being transgendered is sort of similar, but its really not the same. The differences are that being transgender is pervasive; it affects almost every aspect of your life, all of the time. Being a furry or therian is something pretty much entirely inside you, that you can choose if or when to bring out to share with others. Also, a transgendered person has the potential to have surgery or hormone therapy and such to possibly change their physical gender, a furry or a therian does not. A furry wants to be a different species. A therian has a part of them that is a different species. A transgendered person IS a different gender.
When I or Random or Zachski talk about what its like to be a furry or a therian, we aren't saying anything about transgendered people or how we compare to them or how anything about us applies to anything about them, we are just talking about what we are, and nothing more. If furry/therianism has some kind of implication for, or impact on, transgendered people (which I sincerely do not think it does) then that isn't our fault. This is just how we are.
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Firstly, I'd like to preface this by saying that I don't really care what any individual's spiritual beliefs are as long as they don't hurt anybody. I think that the whole otherkin/therian/etc. subculture is, to be perfectly honest, a bit strange, and there are some members of that community who really are dangerous and/or delusional. I know that some people consider otherkin and therian to be separate, but I'm using "otherkin" as the general term here because it's the term that's most familiar to me.
That being said, it is widely acknowledged that there are some (but not all) members of the community that try to conflate it with GID and transgender, and this practice is also acknowledged as completely unscientific and inaccurate. Personally, I'm more inclined to see "otherkinism" as a religious or spiritual belief more than a scientifically verifiable psychological state. The only actual medical cases I have heard of where a person actually acts like another animal because they think they have transformed into it is in instances of severe mental illness such as schizophrenia. Those cases are extremely rare, and most otherkin do not resemble that at all. Otherkin are human and probably do not have any significant organic difference that makes them the way they are. They may have a personal spiritual attraction to a certain animal, but there isn't exactly a portion of the brain dedicated to those sorts of things. However, there are clear biological, neurological, and genetic differences between cisgender people and transgender people that strongly suggest that transgender is a real identity with scientific evidence to back it up.
I think it is important to note that Zachski and several other otherkin tried to describe it as a spiritual belief, which is evidenced by their emphasis on their emotional attraction to the animal and what they feel are "parts of their soul." This is not a materialistic, scientific view of things, and unlike some other otherkin they do not try to justify it with butchered science because they know it is not scientifically verified. I have seen vampire-kin, also known as sanguinarians, try to justify their "bloodthirst" or "aura-thirst" on the ridiculous grounds that blood/psychic energy/etc. actually carries ATP (adenosine triphosphate, the main energy source of cells) and that strong emotions somehow create more ATP. That is not what we are seeing here.
To reiterate, I don't think there's anything inherently dangerous about otherkinism unless the person is delusional or if they are appropriating LGBT* terminology to "scientifically" back up their claims.
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Queen, stop lashing out like a spoiled child. You do this when someone so much as coughs in your direction by complete accident.
You're being an inverse fundamentalist here: different reasons, same level of absolute batshit. You don't agree with his beliefs. If you think that his beliefs should be suppressed for your own benefit, then you need to sit down and ask some serious questions about yourself. You marginalize several groups (particularly pagans and otherkin) while claiming to be marginalized by a belief, as if your marginalizing others is somehow forgivable by saying what is effectively "he started it."
We are not suggesting that trans* and otherkin things are the same. You are the one not only doing that, but insisting that we are doing so. After doing this, you play the victim card and act like we're the assholes, while you're sitting here and screaming because people think something you don't. THAT'S MY JOB.
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And with that I'm going to ask people to relax a bit before I start doing some punting.
Personal identity is a touchy subject. Particularly when you feel someone is belittling yours. Watch a couple of the white guys twitch when privilege comes up, same deal. A little bit of respect and/or apathy goes a long way in smoothing a discussion on the topic. If you're too upset over it to have a calm discussion please take a while off from it and come back a bit more relaxed.
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I've been debating how to address this issue and I will leave it at this. Otend, I feel I was called out in Zachski's post. I tried to illustrate how I feel and I mentioned several things that reflect how personal and delicate this subject is to me. I feel your reply was purposely insensitive. I'm not sorry for what I said, but please understand that I did not wish to offend. Moving on, I've said my piece and I plan to leave it as such.
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Sorry for taking so long to get to this, but I needed to be in the right frame of mind. And I'd like to think I'm reasonably close to being in the right frame of mind.
Seeing as how Zach's post was a direct call out to me, I feel the need to respond.
I'm sorry that it came across that way. I wasn't trying to challenge you or call you out. I was trying to be diplomatic and assure you that I don't think of otherkin struggles as being anywhere close to trans struggles. Apparently I failed spectacularly.
This distinction between spirit and mind is all good and well, except for the numerous short comings it has. First and foremost, I don't believe in spirits, or spectres, or souls.
That's fair. I don't expect you to believe me when I say anything I say. All I expect is understanding. Not belief.
Feel free to think it's bullshit. Fuck, half the people I'm friends with do, as well, and I'm fine with it because neither of us make a big deal out of it.
If spirits don't exist, then this whole distinction is dubious at best. At worst, it reverts the difference between otherkins/therians and ordinary people right back to being in the mind, which I will address later.
This is the point where I feel like you're trying to put words into my mouth.
You see, I do believe in spirits/souls/spectres, and I believe them to be distinctly different from the mind.
So to use this as a way to say that I am saying that I have the "mind of a dragon" is disingenous at best.
Second, I see this distinction as solely an ad hoc excuse to distance yourselves from criticism. Knowing that transpeople find such claims of "having an animal's brain" offensive, you (general) just move the goal posts further down the line and outside the range of our epistomological knowledge, but clearly a distinction exists between otherkins/therians and ordinary people, as I too will address later.
Except I'm not claiming I have an animal's brain (especially an animal that exists only in mythology.) This is the problem I have with your previous conclusion -- it makes people claim things they aren't claiming.
To me, this is the inherent flaw of your argument, and it presupposes that your beliefs (or lack thereof) are inherently superior to my beliefs.
The other fault that I find with even the "moderate and rational" otherkins/therians is that you two (Zach and Random) have both stated that this is either something "you are or something you aren't" and that it is "unchangeable" (see footnote #1). These statements differ drastically with any understanding of spirituality.
Not particularly.
Spirituality is something that one is in no way instilled with from birth.
There are several cultures where someone is born into spirituality. Some native cultures consider witch doctors and shamans to be born, not made. The idea of someone being born with a different spirit predates otherkin and therianthropy by thousands of years, no doubt.
Especially since some beliefs about reincarnation believe that the distinction between an animal soul and a human soul is non-existent -- huamns reincarnate into cows reincarnate into humans. Otherkin and therianthropy did not invent this.
According to you I just can't become a rabbit-kin.
And according to the Torah, no one can just become an Israelite. You have to be born one.
At this point, you're not saying that these things are spiritual, but they're an intrinsic part of yourself that you are projecting onto spirituality. A part of yourself so intrinsic it can't be changed or altered. For clarity, I see religion and spirituality as the same.
First of all, seeing religion and spirituality as the same is a bit incorrect. They are two different things... of sort. Religion tends to be organized spirituality + dogma, whereas spirituality is just that, spirituality.
The other dangerous thing with this "born this way (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTWoTR2a7JM)" argument is that it legitimizes the very claims that you are trying to distance from otherkin/theriantropy. Saying that there is a legitimate difference that one is born with legitimizes the claims of those nutters seeking "species reassignment surgery."
Everything legitimizes some nutter. If we have to censor ourselves because some nutter might take it the wrong way, then no one can literally say anything on the internet. I live for myself. I can't base my life around what some people might find offensive, or might take off with to some absurd, moon-logic conclusion that doesn't make sense.
Even the very lack of ideas can encourage nutters. Atheist fundies exist. Should atheism be "censored" because it "might encourage the nutters?" NO! That would be stupid!
Saying that this difference exists actually puts those nuts on par with GID.
And I feel it doesn't.
For one thing, it's physically impossible for them to have the brain of an animal. Biology doesn't work that way. The only reason it's possible for GID is because having a male or female or intersex or nonsex brain is actually biologically possible for humans. Human brains don't spontaneously become animal brains.
For another, if they actually had animal brains, they wouldn't be blogging about how terrible their lives are and how they are oppressed and whatever.
Who is anyone else, especially one who doesn't feel these "soul-struggles" and "otherkin struggles," to deny them their claims? Even saying it is a "soul" thing is not much different as "hey, I just want to transition because I have a woman's soul" is the first thing that comes to mind.
People who understand even the basics of biology, that's who.
Identity comes from somewhere, saying that some separate identity comes from the soul is only moving it out of where it really comes from (the brain). Not to mention the difference between this identity coming from the brain or soul is superfluous if not non-existant.
I disagree.
Furthermore, I would like to point out that the people I criticized actually believe it's a brain thing. And that's dangerous.
The second reason I find this intrinsic-ness dangerous is that in legitimizing the claims of these nuts, you just reaffirm their delusions and could very well guide them away from getting the mental help they deserve. This is a perfect example of benign nonsense (you and Random) fueling the dangerous nonsense (nuts on tumblr). You can't say "we're born different" or "we can't help it" and then act like those idiots on tumblr are just getting such nonsense from thin air.
And if they weren't otherkin, they would be claiming to be transculture, or transrace, or whatever. These are people who are looking for something, anything, that makes them special. Some of them would probably try to jump on the transgendered bandwagon, too, without actually being transgendered.
Not to mention, hey, even the trans* people have their nutters. Remember "Die, Cis, Scum?" Yeah. I don't consider them indicative of trans* people any more than I consider the tumblrkin to be indicative of otherkin.
Fact is, we don't just run around howling and freaking people out. We're... pretty normal, actually. My "struggles" amount to "What game do I want to play?" If anything, realizing that I'm "dragonkin" has brought me peace, not more struggles.
Finally, in an unrelated note, these nuts are doing a great disservice to transpeople in general. First, by making this something you are "born as" all you do is legitimize the bigots that trans-people have faced for the last, well forever.
I don't "legitimize" them anymore than the "die cis scum" people do.
Now, they can take away the "born this way argument" because you are also born this way.
Not only are you born this way, you don't seek to transition to be wolves and dragons, so why would anyone need to transition genders. Second they can assert that their "what's next, people wanting to be animals" claims correct since it literally happened.
People make claims about things as if it was the end of the world. They did it with gay marriage in regards to interracial marriage, they did it with bestiality in regards to gay marriage... People are stupid. I can't be held personally responsible for the stupidity of bigots.
Also, otherkins haven't been around "since tribal societies." The earliest known mention of them are from online groups in April 1990.
The word "otherkin" is probably very new. Research therianthropy, though.
Finally people who would normally be sympathetic to transpeople now see this nonsense and may think otherwise in their acceptance of us. And for what?
I sincerely doubt that anyone who would be sympathetic towards transpeople would be in any way swayed by the mere existence of otherkin. And if they are, then that is their fault.
First, I let the topic go to be nice. I don't like arguing about other people's beliefs. I walked away literally to spare you a tongue lashing. Returning to that point, other thing about that post is how it says "Soul-struggles as opposed to the fact that one's gender literally does not match one's sex."
I literally wish I could show you just how dumb that statement is.
Okay?
I wish I could explain how my earliest memory is being upset that I couldn't be Snow White for Halloween. I wish I could explain how when I wanted to grow my hair long as a 6 year old, my parents beat me and physically held me down while cutting my hair. Not to mention how traumatic that was. I wish you could know how terrible it is to repress yourself for almost 20 years, jumping through hoops just to make others happy. I wish I could explain getting envious to the point of crying of other women as they developed. I wish you could know the fear of seeing secondary sex characteristics develop before your eyes and wishing more than anything they would stop. I would like you to see how I cut myself at 13-15 just trying to control some of the pain I was feeling. I wish you could see me and how for the better part of the last decade I was high or drunk more often then I could explain just trying to forget my gender if not OD. I wish you could see how scared I was when I finally did come out to someone, how I was crying tears of fear that they would never speak to me again. I wish you could experience these things, because you can't imagine how much it sucks until you do.
I'm not sure what this has to do with what you just said.
That being said, I am aware that the struggles trans people face is unimaginable. Even as a gay man, what I have to face isn't nearly what you have to face. You have it bad from all sides of the fence.
I wish I could explain to you just how much I want to see transphobia end. I wish I could explain to you just how much I want to see transphobia stop in the gay community, the furry community, the brony community, ALL communities. The trans movement has always been near and dear to my heart, more near and dear than the gay movement even.
I'm an ally. I don't expect any cookies for it. I don't even expect any special recognition. I just want to see people stop being stupid about trans* issues and start being more accepting.
I may not know what it is like to be trans*. And I never will. And I'm sorry that I can't.
I doubt therian/otherkin groups have nearly the same suicide rate (30%) that transpeople do.
I doubt it, too.
I'm literally in tears right now because when you say things like "soul-struggles as opposed to gender struggles" it trivializes just how horrible my (and others) experiences are.
I'm sorry that it came across as trivializing. I was trying to do the opposite. Show just how different the two were, how they can't be compared, and how "soul struggles" don't amount anywhere close to the level of "gender struggles."
And for what, why does trivialization take place? I honestly don't know. My best guess is so you can be like those pagan kids in High School and rebel against Christianity.
This is a low blow on several levels, Queen.
First of all, I have never tried to trivialize Trans struggles. And it feels here like you're accusing me of doing so just to feel special about myself. Second of all, pagan kids in Christian families are at risk of many levels of abuse. Maybe not quite the abuse you went through.
To me, it feels like you're, right now, trivializing the struggles that pagan kids go through, dismissing it as a "counter culture" reaction. Nevermind that many of these kids could end up in the street, homeless, or worse simply because of their paganism.
There was one thing you said that was correct. There is a differences between gender struggles and soul struggles. One is real, the other isn't
And that's your worldview. And that's fine that you don't believe it's a real issue. Because honestly, it's not on the same level as trans*, like I've repeatedly said.
If you want to make this spiritual, then make it spiritual. Stop saying it's something you're "born as" or "something you can't change." Admit it's just meditation in your basement or having a spirit animal. Admit that anyone can be an otherkin/therian. And for the love of God, don't ever say "otherkin-struggles" again. When you say "I can't change who I am" and "If you have to ask, you aren't one" then you two have taken it out of the range of spiritual, not me.
I'm sorry, Queen. But I cannot lie about who I am. Nor will I change myself just because someone on the internet is offended.
But the fact of the matter is, trans* don't have a monopoly on "born this way." Homo/bi/hetero/asexuals have that claim, too, as do some shamans, Jews, and people who believe in reincarnation.
The fact of the matter is, I'm not against you. Me, Random, a lot of people here are on your side. We're tired of otherkin who trivialize trans* struggles by trying to appropriate them. And quite frankly, I don't appreciate being lumped in with the people who do, because I have explicitly spoken out against it. That is why I said "soul struggles as opposed to gender struggles." Because they two are nowhere close to each other. The core of what I said agrees with what you said.
And I am sorry that a facet of my being is offensive to you. But I'm also sorry to say this, but you don't have the right to be not offended. And I am not going to accept blame for something that is not my fault. And I don't expect Random to, either.
In short, I want to say this:
Queen, we are not enemies. I was wrong to wait so long to reply to you. This is an issue we will probably have to agree to disagree on, because we may never come to an amicable conclusion on this. However, in light of recent events, I want to say that I haven't given you the respect you deserve.
You have been rather antagonistic lately, but I would be remiss in pointing out my own antagonism at times. I want to put the past behind us. I want us to be friends who simply disagree on this issue. Do you think that would be possible?
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So to use this as a way to say that I am saying that I have the "mind of a dragon" is disingenous at best.
Except I'm not claiming I have an animal's brain (especially an animal that exists only in mythology.) This is the problem I have with your previous conclusion -- it makes people claim things they aren't claiming.
You've missed the point. My point with regards to this isn't to put words into your mouth but to say that the difference between "I have the brain of a llama" and "I have the spirit of a llama" is an excuse. A goal post shift. There is no difference. (http://www.otherkin.net/wiki/Manual/Trans-Species) Identity comes from somewhere and saying there is an unchangeable difference legitimizes the nuts you're trying to distance yourself from. Especially if you say you're born this way and unable to change it. Heck, the minute you say you can't change something it implies that is the way your brain is structured. Even with spirit, they would just say "identity comes from spirit" and stick to their batshittery as my link points out. All the brain-spirit thing is is a giant goal post shift to keep this illusion alive, because you guys have said that people just can't become otherkin nor can they change their animal-identity. This is the part legitimizes those wanting to "transition species."
Second, if it can't be helped which spirit you're born with, why do all the otherkins/therians end up with romantic animals (http://melted-snowflake.tumblr.com/post/24722038315/otherkin-think-they-are-not-human). Just from what we have to my knowledge, a couple dragons, a couple wolves, a dog, all noble animals, except the dragons who are not real but viewed as nobility to some cultures. If it were something you couldn't help, it should be a bit more random and we'd see a lot more diversity. If it were a random thing you're born as, then IDK, wouldn't we see more botfly-kin or tick-kin or latrine fly-kin, or dung beetle-kin. Those individuals shouldn't be able to help their identity...
Some native cultures consider witch doctors and shamans to be born, not made.
And according to the Torah, no one can just become an Israelite. You have to be born one.
Two problems with these examples.
1. We can all look at the person making these claims and recognize their claims as legitimate based on their birth. We can tell them apart as children, newborns even, and know that they will be legitimate if they choose to follow said beliefs. This isn't an identity thing, it's a cultural thing. Their culture recognizes them as legitimate, from the womb to the tomb. Their culture then indoctrinates them into their beliefs. This differs drastically from otherkins as we can't look at a baby and say "therian." If we remove these Israelites and Shamans from their families at birth, they will not grow up holding their ancestors' beliefs.
2. The Shaman and the Israelite can abandon their beliefs at any time. So if these are apt metaphors, you should be able to abandon it too and hence it isn't something you "just can't change."
Especially since some beliefs about reincarnation believe that the distinction between an animal soul and a human soul is non-existent -- huamns reincarnate into cows reincarnate into humans. Otherkin and therianthropy did not invent this.
Just because you believe in reincarnation does not make it true. Nor does it mean that someone is born automatically believing in reincarnation. Nor does that mean that opinions on reincarnation can not be changed or given up. These all drastically differ from what you're saying about otherkinism.
First of all, seeing religion and spirituality as the same is a bit incorrect. They are two different things... of sort. Religion tends to be organized spirituality + dogma, whereas spirituality is just that, spirituality.
I'm an atheist. To me, it's all nonsense and irrationality. Be it nonsense in the church surrounded by others or nonsense in your basement pretending to be a gerenuk. I file them both under spiritual beliefs. Second, that is an odd definition of spirituality. If you can't define it yourself, why should I view spirituality as any different than religion?
That said, I do respect anothers right to practice their faith without my criticism. I keep opinions to myself. I sure as heck did about this thread in all it's offensive "born this way" nonsense until you made that "diplomatic" post which you admit was geared towards me.
Everything legitimizes some nutter.
Again, I think you miss my point. I'm not saying "otherkins legitimize these crazy types by virtue of being otherkins" but "this trait about benign otherkins (that they're born that way) legitimizes the crazy otherkins." If being a therian were a spiritual thing, you wouldn't be born with it nor would it be permanent. That is the inconsistancy in your beliefs. I would have no problem with it being spiritual because religious beliefs are none of my business. But even your interpretation of it is not spiritual and it is affirming the crazy types that you try to distance yourself from and that harm acceptence of trans people.
I see this benign stuff you and Random doing as fueling the dangerous stuff from tumblr. It wouldn't be legitimizing, it would be the opposite, to tell them "it's spiritual, anyone can be this, we can convert to any other beliefs, we're not special." If the crazies are forced to admit it's spiritual and changable, they can no longer appropriate the trans experience and tailor it to their imagination. These crazy types are the reason I have a problem with the whole group because of the damage they do to transpeople. Finally, I lump everyone into the group because I haven't seen one otherkin/therian in these groups actually try to make it spiritual.
Again, if it were truly spiritual, then it wouldn't legitimize the nuts and I wouldn't have a problem with it.
To make it spiritual, all you need to do is admit that you're not born that way, your "animal identity" is not permanent, and anyone can practice this. That I can just as easily become a Zora-kin tomorrow by meditating and pretending to be one, or following their principles in the course of my day to day life and using them as a spirit guide. I think these aspects of it, that you are or you aren't, just reek of "speshul snowflaek syndrome."
And if they weren't otherkin, they would be claiming to be transculture, or transrace, or whatever. These are people who are looking for something, anything, that makes them special. Some of them would probably try to jump on the transgendered bandwagon, too, without actually being transgendered.
This whole thing ignored my point about how benign nonsense (such as you and Random saying "you are or you aren't) fuels dangerous nonsense and guides those who need help away from seeking or utilizing it. (http://melted-snowflake.tumblr.com/post/31911456090/i-was-a-teenage-werewolf)
Second, I have just as much a problem with the rest of the trans-appropriation crowd.
And those jumping on the trans bandwagon would quickly jump off. Transitioning isn't something you do on a whim or because there is nothing interesting to watch on TV. It requires a lot of work, effort, money, and time. There is a notable goal to transition; to live as the person you are. There is no notable goal to being an otherkin. It's a lot of talk and self-affirmation of identity, as a link a bit later addresses. People would quickly begin to have doubts about you being trans if you just sat around continuing to live as your birth gender. The attention would quickly dissipate.
My "struggles" amount to "What game do I want to play?" If anything, realizing that I'm "dragonkin" has brought me peace, not more struggles.
That doesn't sound like a struggle, or even a spiritual thing. It sounds more like a preference... Do you think that maybe this isn't something "you're born as" and instead you just happen to hold a preference for dragons and certain character classes? I think this would explain Vormir's recent post too. I have a preference for chilling with Zoras in Zelda games and swimming through Great Bay as Mikau, so am I Zora-kin?
And if I am, I'm not one of those skanky Hylian Zoras running around all nekkid, but one of them classy, Termina Zoras. Cause I'm a fuckin lady. Lulu 4 lyfe yo! (random sidenote, just ignore).
People make claims about things as if it was the end of the world. They did it with gay marriage in regards to interracial marriage, they did it with bestiality in regards to gay marriage... People are stupid. I can't be held personally responsible for the stupidity of bigots.
I sincerely doubt that anyone who would be sympathetic towards transpeople would be in any way swayed by the mere existence of otherkin. And if they are, then that is their fault.
I don't believe that this water juggling act (http://melted-snowflake.tumblr.com/post/27414196047/juggling-water) is worth playing into the narrative of transphobes. Especially when one transwoman parsed through stories about herself (she had a role in bringing SRS inclusion to Brown University's health insurance program) and found the main two arguments against it were;
1. It's free and that will motive students to "want" it.
2. It's cosmetic and that's unfair to students who don't identify with their bodies. Who want to transition and be animals and stuff.
I repeat, I don't think playing into that narrative, or legitimizing those that do, is worth lying about being "born this way," or "unable to help it," or "theriantropy being permanent."
The word "otherkin" is probably very new. Research therianthropy, though.
A bit older. 1915, still a few thousand years removed from tribal societies.
I'm not sure what this has to do with what you just said.
I mentioned that because THAT is what it means to be born a certain way. To have something so fundamental, so core to your being that you can't change it. To have *actual* struggles related to trying to change who you are before coming out and trying to be accepted by society and shunned in the process. Hardships which I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy, difficulties that I am happy more than 99% of people will never have to deal with. Saying "otherkin stuggles" is outright disrespectful and trivializing to groups with real struggles when your "struggles" amount to which character you'll pick for your next D&D session.
You have been rather antagonistic lately
Antagonistic? Unless having a different opinion on this otherkin stuff is "antagonistic," I fail to understand what you're talking about.
Also after the recent kerfuck in which my reputation was unnecessarily and unfarily trashed, the kerfuck everyone wants to just brush under the rug and pretend never happened, is this really appropriate to say?
Being transgendered is sort of similar, but its really not the same. The differences are that being transgender is pervasive; it affects almost every aspect of your life, all of the time. Being a furry or therian is something pretty much entirely inside you, that you can choose if or when to bring out to share with others. Also, a transgendered person has the potential to have surgery or hormone therapy and such to possibly change their physical gender, a furry or a therian does not. A furry wants to be a different species. A therian has a part of them that is a different species. A transgendered person IS a different gender.
Vormir, would you mind clarifying the bolded part?
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Gotta say, this is why I just run with the 'Totem animal' angle and file it under religion.
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Okay, I've left this for a long time in the hopes that we can all (myself included) approach this somewhat more calmly. Now, I don't think I'm going to change any minds here, frankly that's not the point of this thread. I'm just here to explain my perspective on things and take questions. Now, I could be completely wrong here, but it seems to me that the thing that seems to bother you most, Queen, is the perceived exclusiveness of therianthropy/otherkin, in the "You are or you aren't" thing. I think in my earlier posts I worded it kind of badly. To clarify, part of the belief itself is that therianthropy isn't something you can just wake up one day and decide "that sounds cool, I think that's what I want to be", and the "you are or you aren't" attitude is largely a response to 14-year-olds on WereSpace or such who are jumping on the bandwagon as the fad of the week. I think most therians will back me up when I say that it's a whole process of self-discovery on a much deeper level than "that's cool, I'm an [ x ] now." This process, of course, is different for everyone.
Now, here's where I have some ideas which differ somewhat from the more common definitions (though we do have a saying - ask 10 therians to define it and you'll get 11 answers. This is my answer # 11)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtYaPycpPPs
I had a hypothesis, I don't know if I can call it a theory ot not. To quote from a post I made in a group I'm part of: "I was thinking that there's a possibility that therianthropy isn't nearly as exclusive as it's made out to be. There's a possibility that everyone actually has a theriotype, but not everyone actually ever discovers it (or cares to). The idea being that the line between therians and nontherians is more accurately the line between the awere and the not-awere (to use an awful pun). I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, or how valid an interpretation it is, I just thought I'd put it out there."
Also once again, I do try to combat the more genuinely harmful comments made by tumblrkin when I can, because we are most certainly not a super-oppressed group who has any kind of serious struggle apart from that of being taken seriously. Of course that makes the tumblrkin themselves who are the ones causing the problems. Well, them and a few asshole documentary filmmakers and CSI scriptwriters. I'm very critical of my own subculture sometimes. This brings me to another point, while I don't expect people to believe what I do, because that's unreasonable, one of the things that I'm trying to get across here is that I am being completely serious about this. This is a very important part of who I am. I'm not joking ot trolling or trying to anger or upset anyone, and if I've inadvertently done any of that, I'm sorry. I fully expect people to dismiss this, I know everyone has a different threshold of what they're willing to accept, I'm just trying to point out how my views aren't really any crazier than the average religion. I mean, "I'm a wolf on some nonphysical level" is a lot less to take in than "Some giant bearded man made the Earth, populated it, decided he didn't like the people and wanted to kill them all in a flood, made up a bunch of insane rules for the survivors, and manifested himself as his son as a man to go down and be murdered by some of the people which somehow saved the rest of them from eternal damnation, also there were giants and magic and it was all very metal."
I would also argue that whatever claims I make about myself are only really about me. I'm not telling anyone else what to believe, how to act, how to dress, what to eat, or the like, I'm only saying how I do. Anyways, that's enough rambling for now, I may have done more harm than good, but eh. I've needed to say something for a while now.
tl;dr I'm still crazy. Also quite tired. It's not my intention to appropriate and I try extremely hard not to.