Israeli gay leaders snubbed by Seattlite gay leaders

[Osama bin Bambi]

It's one thing to turn away an Israeli delegation that is well known for supporting the occupation of Palestine. It's another thing to pass that judgment on the entire group simply based on their nationality, when in reality there has been no indication whether they support the occupation or not.

[Witchyjoshy]

Yeah, at the cost of being bigots.

"The ends justify the means" is never a good statement.  Ever.

Just to note, no one has said that.

stupid as fuck maybe but it certainly helped in a very small way to bring apartheid down. it let south africa know directly how unimpressed the rest of the world was with them.

I'm sorry, Distind, what was that?

Israel has a rather impressive history of murdering, removing or simply ignoring civilians until they die. Is that right? Should it be ignored because of their record on other issues? Or should at least someone hold citizens of that nation accountable for the nation's actions?

Or how about the proper thing and holding the government accountable for the nation's actions and not the citizens, many of whom actually protest the occupation?

The LGBT delegates have absolutely nothing to do with the occupation, other than being from the same country.

This isn't bigotry, that involves unreasoning hatred, there are definitive and valid reasons behind it. Doesn't mean you have to agree with them on it, but it does mean they aren't bigots over it.

Discriminating based on birthplace and living place is indeed bigotry.

Just because you agree with it doesn't make it not bigotry.

Seriously, this is the kinda shit I would expect to see on Rapture Ready talking about Islamic countries.  Not otherwise well-reasoned members of FSTDT.

[Her3tiK]

I don't see how this is bigotry, either. Looks more like a political statement.

[Witchyjoshy]

I don't see how this is bigotry, either. Looks more like a political statement.

You say that as if the two are somehow mutually exclusive.

You must be new here

[Her3tiK]

I don't see how this is bigotry, either. Looks more like a political statement.

You say that as if the two are somehow mutually exclusive.

You must be new here

No, I don't see it as bigoted because they have a legitimate issue with Israel, instead of some BS like Jews control the IMF or something. Doesn't look like anything other than a really, really toned down sanction or blockade to me.

[largeham]

I'm not going to respond to everything (my apologies Wykked, Zachski and Mesh), but give a general response.

I would like to say that yes, I am wrong. Had the delegation been made up of people who have vocally supported the occupation, then I believe I would have been right in POV. Until that happens, I will admit I was wrong (but not bigoted).

[Meshakhad]

I'm not going to respond to everything (my apologies Wykked, Zachski and Mesh), but give a general response.

I would like to say that yes, I am wrong. Had the delegation been made up of people who have vocally supported the occupation, then I believe I would have been right in POV. Until that happens, I will admit I was wrong (but not bigoted).

Thank you. And kudos for being able to admit that you were wrong on the Internet. Do you know how rarely this happens?

[Witchyjoshy]

I don't see how this is bigotry, either. Looks more like a political statement.

You say that as if the two are somehow mutually exclusive.

You must be new here

No, I don't see it as bigoted because they have a legitimate issue with Israel, instead of some BS like Jews control the IMF or something. Doesn't look like anything other than a really, really toned down sanction or blockade to me.

...Yeah, and their legitimate issue with the Israel government has nothing to do with Israeli civilians, unless those civilians have shown vocal support for what the Israeli government is doing.

@largeham

Judge not a man by his mistakes, but how well he owns up to them :-)

[DharmicDalek]

It is not because they are Israeli. It's the pink-washing.

"We are less savage then the Palestinians" is the message they gave.

There are many pro-peace Israelis and groups run by them. To deny them because they are Israeli would be bigotry.

To deny a group for there platform is hardly bigotry.

I see no issue with this at all.   

[StallChaser]

I'm not going to respond to everything (my apologies Wykked, Zachski and Mesh), but give a general response.

I would like to say that yes, I am wrong. Had the delegation been made up of people who have vocally supported the occupation, then I believe I would have been right in POV. Until that happens, I will admit I was wrong (but not bigoted).

Thank you. And kudos for being able to admit that you were wrong on the Internet. Do you know how rarely this happens?

I remember seeing it happen once when I was eight, but it was before the internet.

But seriously, unless they've explicitly supported the apartheid policies of Israel, I don't see why there's any reason to reject them.  Just because you live under a government doesn't necessarily mean you support all of its policies.

[largeham]

Thank you. And kudos for being able to admit that you were wrong on the Internet. Do you know how rarely this happens?

@largeham

Judge not a man by his mistakes, but how well he owns up to them :-)

Well, we can thank GIFT for that.

DharmicDalek: the reason I retracted my statements was that this group neither openly supports the policies of the Israeli government nor is it attempting to pinkwash. If they did either of the above, then I would stand by my criticisms.

[Distind]

stupid as fuck maybe but it certainly helped in a very small way to bring apartheid down. it let south africa know directly how unimpressed the rest of the world was with them.

I'm sorry, Distind, what was that?

The sound of you twisting things to fit what you want to hear. Like many political gestures it's pretty stupid in practical terms, but in social terms it's one more method of expressing discontent with another nation's policies. Nothing about justification, just noting that it's pretty stupid, yet does some part.

[Osama bin Bambi]

I'm not going to respond to everything (my apologies Wykked, Zachski and Mesh), but give a general response.

I would like to say that yes, I am wrong. Had the delegation been made up of people who have vocally supported the occupation, then I believe I would have been right in POV. Until that happens, I will admit I was wrong (but not bigoted).

largeham gets a Fuck Yeah for having the balls to admit he's wrong on the internet.

stupid as fuck maybe but it certainly helped in a very small way to bring apartheid down. it let south africa know directly how unimpressed the rest of the world was with them.

I'm sorry, Distind, what was that?

The sound of you twisting things to fit what you want to hear. Like many political gestures it's pretty stupid in practical terms, but in social terms it's one more method of expressing discontent with another nation's policies. Nothing about justification, just noting that it's pretty stupid, yet does some part.

I just don't think that this act will accomplish anything. Will Israeli political leaders read this story in the paper and think, "Well, some gay people in Seattle think that our nation's foreign policy is assholish. I guess we'll just have to stop all that stuff now." Discontent with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is quite well-known (but you wouldn't know it in America). I know some people who do support the occupation - like, they think they have the God-given right to be a shithead - and this action will not win any of them over to the other side. It will not even get them to doubt their stance. Resorting to meaningless bigotry is probably the least productive thing that could have taken place.

[Diamandahagan]

Gee.  I dunno.

What's wrong with discriminating based on nation?  Could it be... bigotry?

Also, I find it funny that you mention that last part.  I didn't know about that.  And you're right, it isn't any different.  They're both stupid as fuck.

stupid as fuck maybe but it certainly helped in a very small way to bring apartheid down. it let south africa know directly how unimpressed the rest of the world was with them.

Yeah, at the cost of being bigots.

"The ends justify the means" is never a good statement.  Ever.

that depends on what the end is and what means you employ.

[Witchyjoshy]

stupid as fuck maybe but it certainly helped in a very small way to bring apartheid down. it let south africa know directly how unimpressed the rest of the world was with them.

I'm sorry, Distind, what was that?

The sound of you twisting things to fit what you want to hear. Like many political gestures it's pretty stupid in practical terms, but in social terms it's one more method of expressing discontent with another nation's policies. Nothing about justification, just noting that it's pretty stupid, yet does some part.

Dunno, sounded like quite a bit of justification to me.

Essentially, it was a "Yeah, it was stupid, but it did its part, so why complain?"

Or, in other words, "it helped accomplished the end, so why bother about the means?"

Not to mention I think that Diamandahagan's most recent post just confirmed that, yes, it was a "The ends justify the means" post >_>

Gee.  I dunno.

What's wrong with discriminating based on nation?  Could it be... bigotry?

Also, I find it funny that you mention that last part.  I didn't know about that.  And you're right, it isn't any different.  They're both stupid as fuck.

stupid as fuck maybe but it certainly helped in a very small way to bring apartheid down. it let south africa know directly how unimpressed the rest of the world was with them.

Yeah, at the cost of being bigots.

"The ends justify the means" is never a good statement.  Ever.

that depends on what the end is and what means you employ.

No, it... really doesn't depend.