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Community => Society and History => Topic started by: KZN02 on May 24, 2014, 08:16:08 pm

Title: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: KZN02 on May 24, 2014, 08:16:08 pm
Link (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/24/1301671/-Elliot-Roger-Gunman-in-California-Mass-Shooting-was-influenced-by-the-Men-s-Rights-Movement)

What hits me the most was this was from the college I graduated from last year. So far, I don't think any of my friends still there were killed, but I've very worried about those who were killed.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 24, 2014, 08:18:16 pm
Naw, he wos obviously insane!!!
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on May 24, 2014, 08:39:15 pm
So this guy is basically the love-shy goons coming good on their threat to murder people if society doesn't give them a hot girlfriend.

I want to punch something!
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: ironbite on May 24, 2014, 08:53:15 pm
Welcome to the future.  If you don't have sex with every loser, this will happen.

Ironbite-alpha predator my fucking ass.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on May 24, 2014, 09:14:20 pm
Trigger warning obviously.

Spoiled little punks monologue is here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUSqZBWKctc) and here (http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2014/05/24/video-allegedly-from-mass-killer-in-santa-barbara-if-i-cant-have-you-girls-ill-destroy-you-trigger-warning/)!

This whiny brats sense of entitlement is nothing less than gargantuan!
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Witchyjoshy on May 24, 2014, 09:27:11 pm
What an entitled, vicious little brat.  22 years old and he's complaining about being a virgin?

Of course, blame can be metted out by the bucketfuls.  To his parents for not squashing his entitled bullshit.  To society for teaching them and him that male virginity is evil.  To the MRA movement for teaching him that he was a "nice guy" despite all evidence to the contrary.

Of course, blame goes primarily to him and his egotistical ass.

He's dead now.  Died in a shootout.  Which means someone killed him in self-defense and/or the defense of others.  As such, I can't even find a single ounce of remorse in my heart for this guy.  The world is now a better place for his death.  Still, I won't begrudge his parents their grief.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Art Vandelay on May 24, 2014, 09:35:09 pm
Quote
I'm the perfect guy, and yet you throw yourselves at all these obnoxious men, instead of me, the supreme gentleman.
"I'm such a perfect gentleman that I will literally murder you if you do any less than throw yourself at me".
Quote
All those girls that I've desired so much, they would have all rejected me and looked down upon me as an inferior man if I ever made a sexual advance towards them.
"Would have". Well, that just says it all, now doesn't it?
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: ironbite on May 24, 2014, 09:52:18 pm
The little punk ass bitch couldn't work up the fucking balls to ask anyone out?  Wooooooooow.

Oh and his parents were trying to get him help.  That's why he was seeing 4 different therapists is what I read about.  4 different people trying to reach this asshole who couldn't even ask out the star of his masturbation fantasy isn't enough to squash this jackass' sense of entitlement?  Really?  Come on now I think we're better then this.

Also apparently a few days before the rampage, the parents called the cops on the kid.  The cops determined he was a "nice guy" and left without arresting his punk ass.

Ironbite-so let's place where it should folks...on this alpha predator.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Witchyjoshy on May 24, 2014, 09:54:43 pm
The little punk ass bitch couldn't work up the fucking balls to ask anyone out?  Wooooooooow.

Oh and his parents were trying to get him help.  That's why he was seeing 4 different therapists is what I read about.  4 different people trying to reach this asshole who couldn't even ask out the star of his masturbation fantasy isn't enough to squash this jackass' sense of entitlement?  Really?  Come on now I think we're better then this.

If you don't believe you have a problem, then no one can solve it for you.  Being around MRAs who constantly confirmed his entitlement probably made everything worse.

I will apologize for insulting the parents, though.

Quote
Also apparently a few days before the rampage, the parents called the cops on the kid.  The cops determined he was a "nice guy" and left without arresting his punk ass.

FUCK.  Wrath redirected.

Quote
Ironbite-so let's place where it should folks...on this alpha predator.

Oh believe me, he's got plenty of blame.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Sleepy on May 24, 2014, 10:07:15 pm
Did the cops not know about the video? I'm not sure how they could let him go when he threatened to go on a murderous rampage.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Witchyjoshy on May 24, 2014, 10:11:49 pm
Did the parents even know about the video?
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: ironbite on May 24, 2014, 10:19:11 pm
I think the video got put up after the cops were called.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: TheUnknown on May 24, 2014, 10:26:08 pm
According to one of the dad's lawyers, he had Aspergers and receiving psychiatric treatment.  Cue multiple people trying to shift the blame to "autism".
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: solar. on May 24, 2014, 10:31:03 pm
Judging by the videos he posted, he had BAWTISM, not autism.

Observe. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qe7ikxzqe0)
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Witchyjoshy on May 24, 2014, 10:35:55 pm
Oh for fuck's sake.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on May 24, 2014, 10:36:24 pm
Rot in hell, you sick bastard.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Alehksunos on May 24, 2014, 10:39:26 pm
Words cannot describe how fucked up this is. People keep saying this society is progressing further when really the perception of women is regressing. Not just men crying about not having their penis get played with, but that women are expected to be "breeders" (read: States with their "ultrasound" laws, 20-week abortion bans and even worse, 6-week bans).

By the way, I am 22, never "got laid" either. I'm not bitching.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: KZN02 on May 24, 2014, 10:40:46 pm
Ok, I've come into contact with a few of my friends still at college, they're ok, which is good. I asked about the location of the shooting and found out it's a place I've been to a couple of times, but not too far from the dorms I lived in.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 24, 2014, 10:56:27 pm
The news will now try to either blame it on "Mental Illness" for the fifty billionth god damn time, or say how "tragic" he was.

At the risk of offending UP, society just can't accept that a straight white cishet could be anything but perfect.

(For those lacking mental capacity, this is known as a "rant")

Edit:Happy now nitpickers?
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Kain on May 24, 2014, 11:01:15 pm
Quote
Wish there was some sort of mental illness test before selling a gun to someone...

Saw this coming from a mile away. Because there's never been any neurotypical shooters ever.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Art Vandelay on May 24, 2014, 11:04:23 pm
nerotip
Assuming you mean "neurotypical", then no, he most definitely wasn't. There's a reason why he was seeing four different therapists at the same time.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on May 24, 2014, 11:06:28 pm
The news will now try to either blame it on "Mental Illness" for the fifty billionth god damn time, or say how "tragic" he was.

At the risk of offending UP, society just can't accept that a straight white nerotip cishet could be anything but perfect.

(For those lacking mental capacity, this is known as a "rant")
"Nerotip"?  Then why was he undergoing such intense therapy?
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Alehksunos on May 24, 2014, 11:31:09 pm
Guys, this is not mental illness, unlike most cases. This is motivated by misogyny misanthropy misogyny and sexual frustration. This son of a bitch wanted to fuck some women and got pissed off because none of them wanted to have sex with them.

This is almost similar to what happened in Montreal back in 1989 (and it is a fucked-up beyond disturbing story).
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Søren on May 24, 2014, 11:37:13 pm
(https://31.media.tumblr.com/05d9ac867eaebefc31e0378edce3ac2f/tumblr_n63tyhQx6q1t8jgtoo1_500.png)
(https://31.media.tumblr.com/65ba928e847c129c4d6567f1ccd0d0b8/tumblr_n63tyhQx6q1t8jgtoo2_r1_500.png)
(https://31.media.tumblr.com/3bd7afb291c318b5aa3d1cbb796311af/tumblr_n63tyhQx6q1t8jgtoo3_r1_500.png)
(https://31.media.tumblr.com/700f6333134a60c5bf6ada9f6d28e07d/tumblr_n63tyhQx6q1t8jgtoo4_r1_1280.png)
(https://24.media.tumblr.com/977e4664d08d4a11c3006cd5c9f3baf1/tumblr_n63tyhQx6q1t8jgtoo5_r1_500.png)
(https://24.media.tumblr.com/4df22781cdd795acf5a2bb84c040a6de/tumblr_n63tyhQx6q1t8jgtoo6_r1_400.png)

Look at all this deliciousness.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: KZN02 on May 24, 2014, 11:39:38 pm
What sucks is that I found out from my sister is that a person she knew from school was among those killed at the incident.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on May 24, 2014, 11:48:15 pm
</arseholes>

Look at all this deliciousness.

These are "nice guys"?

So being a sweating, snarling, self-pitying bitter and twisted troglodyte is a synonym for "nice" now? Don't anyone tell their parents you're taking home a nice guy/girl anymore. You may find the door bolted!
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: solar. on May 24, 2014, 11:55:49 pm
At least I admit I'm a jerk... And "nice guys" are douchier than even me.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Witchyjoshy on May 25, 2014, 12:01:01 am
I wonder how many of them are trolls trying to piss people off?

Incidentally, it DOESN'T make it better if they are.  In fact, any troll who would use this opportunity to get their jollies is a pretty terrible person.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Alehksunos on May 25, 2014, 12:06:28 am
One of the avatars is some shitty My Little Pony fancharacter. How delightful...
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: TheUnknown on May 25, 2014, 12:53:31 am
Missed one:

(https://31.media.tumblr.com/8d4f4d9f03b5891e2a6a4359dfd6ef08/tumblr_n63ssw6QkD1rlsu93o1_500.png)
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Barbarella on May 25, 2014, 01:08:56 am
One of the avatars is some shitty My Little Pony fancharacter. How delightful...

One thing that puzzles me is why some misogynists are fans of a rather feminist cartoon.

And about this shooting......No words can be said....I am speechless.

I'd say it's high time for male feminists to become more vocal.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Art Vandelay on May 25, 2014, 01:12:58 am
One of the avatars is some shitty My Little Pony fancharacter. How delightful...
One thing that puzzles me is why some misogynists are fans of a rather feminist cartoon.
Apparently they just really like the idea of fucking cartoon ponies.

Which admittedly raises a whole lot more questions than it answers, but these people are nothing if not fucked in the head.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Cerim Treascair on May 25, 2014, 01:21:03 am

Apparently they just really like the idea of fucking cartoon ponies.

Oh, do fuck off.  I know you're a snarky, taking-the-piss bastard right alongside of Old Viking, but I'm sick and fucking tired of your shit.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Stormwarden on May 25, 2014, 01:32:18 am
And this is what happens when society starts encouraging guys to think with their dicks. I'm sorry someone had to kill him to save others. I wouldn't wish that situation on any shooter no matter how much they train.

I hope his parents find peace, and the victims and families of the dead do as well.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Thejebusfire on May 25, 2014, 01:38:15 am
CNN released some information on the victims:

Quote
He fatally stabbed three men in his residence, shot two women to death in front of a sorority house, shot a man to death inside a deli, exchanged gunfire twice with police and injured 13 people as he drove from block to block, the Santa Barbara Sheriff's Office said Saturday night.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/24/justice/california-shooting-deaths/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Art Vandelay on May 25, 2014, 01:39:55 am

Apparently they just really like the idea of fucking cartoon ponies.

Oh, do fuck off.  I know you're a snarky, taking-the-piss bastard right alongside of Old Viking, but I'm sick and fucking tired of your shit.

So who pissed in your Cheerios this morning?
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Witchyjoshy on May 25, 2014, 01:42:55 am

Apparently they just really like the idea of fucking cartoon ponies.

Oh, do fuck off.  I know you're a snarky, taking-the-piss bastard right alongside of Old Viking, but I'm sick and fucking tired of your shit.

So who pissed in your Cheerios this morning?

You did.  Remember?
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: syaoranvee on May 25, 2014, 01:45:16 am
Guys, this is not mental illness, unlike most cases. This is motivated by misogyny misanthropy misogyny and sexual frustration.
Let's forget that guy had seen 4 therapists and was having delusions of godhood
Let's forget that if an ideal is the only thing needed for this we'd have virgin retards offing themselves or others on a mass daily basis considering how many people spout this shit on the internet.

No, this guy was totally legit and well adjusted and sane.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Witchyjoshy on May 25, 2014, 01:47:33 am
Guys, this is not mental illness, unlike most cases. This is motivated by misogyny misanthropy misogyny and sexual frustration.
Let's forget that guy had seen 4 therapists and was having delusions of godhood
Let's forget that if an ideal is the only thing needed for this we'd have virgin retards offing themselves or others on a mass daily basis considering how many people spout this shit on the internet.

No, this guy was totally legit and well adjusted and sane.

Because only the mentally ill can kill someone, all well-adjusted people would be unable to kill someone.  Right.

See, I can snark, too.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Barbarella on May 25, 2014, 01:49:01 am
May the souls of those lost be at peace as well (I know some of you don't see it that way but that's my two cents).

Y'know? I think we need to reframe all this as a "Mental Health Issue" rather than a "Gun Control/Gun Rights" issue. Perhaps if we reframe it, something might be done about this "Mass Shooting Every Week" thing.

If we can't get anywhere with the whole gun thing for the time being, we need to switch to the "mental health" thing. We need to work on the inside of the person. We also need to encourage kindness, empathy, love & generosity & make it "cool & trendy".

And again, feminist men & non-frummer people of faith need to work hard to be extra vocal. The voices of frummers & male supremacists need to be countered hard! There needs to be non-frum evangelists! There needs to be super-vocal & "out-there" pro-woman guys ranting away! There needs to be voices that both counter the bigotry while providing an alternative.

There needs to be a Mental Health Movement! Bring back the asylums, group homes & assisted living centers. Have them well-funded by both the government & charities. Have telethons & fund-raisers! Make sure they don't turn into Willowbrook but instead be good places where there's help & safety.

The real problem is within. We can pass all these laws and safety measures but if we don't get to the source, the Human Psyche, then it's all a bunch of draconian restrictions over nothing!
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Lt. Fred on May 25, 2014, 01:51:08 am
It will be interesting to see if this horrific massacre will be thrust down the memory hole by conspiracy theorists like the last three.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Art Vandelay on May 25, 2014, 01:52:11 am

Apparently they just really like the idea of fucking cartoon ponies.

Oh, do fuck off.  I know you're a snarky, taking-the-piss bastard right alongside of Old Viking, but I'm sick and fucking tired of your shit.

So who pissed in your Cheerios this morning?

You did.  Remember?

Not particularly, no.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: MadCatTLX on May 25, 2014, 01:56:20 am
Spuki, that's what we were doing. For that matter I think you're the first to mention the word "gun" in this thread. Also, this happened in California.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Damen on May 25, 2014, 02:03:40 am
All I really have an interest in pointing out as of this post is that I want to express my sympathies for those who were murdered and their surviving loved ones, to thank whoever shot this fuckface and to point out that I am tickled pink at the fact that he was complaining about being a virgin...and then got to die a virgin.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: TheUnknown on May 25, 2014, 02:08:38 am
Excerpts of his "manifesto" (allegedly, haven't read it myself):

(https://31.media.tumblr.com/6577929fc2153cfdd049c2e3af944a97/tumblr_n63rzyJSuo1rn9y81o1_500.png)
(https://24.media.tumblr.com/40f8a7cb010c86eb170230de3bda5717/tumblr_n63rzyJSuo1rn9y81o2_500.png)
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: syaoranvee on May 25, 2014, 02:10:39 am
All I really have an interest in pointing out as of this post is that I want to express my sympathies for those who were murdered and their surviving loved ones, to thank whoever shot this fuckface and to point out that I am tickled pink at the fact that he was complaining about being a virgin...and then got to die a virgin.

Only bad part is that these types usually are looking for suicide by cop scenarios instead of being taken in.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist on May 25, 2014, 02:17:49 am
I can't be the only one who thought of the Ecole Polytechnique massacre after reading this. The "crimes" this asshole and Marc Lepine laid at the feel of women differ, but it ultimately comes down to the same horrific story: Piece of shit leads a pathetic life full of failures, paints self as innocent victim of evil women, murders female university students & claims he's making a stand for the rights of men.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men\
Post by: Stormwarden on May 25, 2014, 02:27:17 am
^I give you that, Damen. At least he would have no opportunity to have a child to pass those damnable beliefs to. Things like that "manifesto?" The BAU and ISU (Investigative Support Unit) read through those every day.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 25, 2014, 02:39:17 am
You know, the philosophy he had about how women MUST have sex with isn't unique in any way. The number one reason rape is so common is the belief women MUST fuck a guy who wants to be fucked.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist on May 25, 2014, 02:43:45 am
Fuck Vox Day. (http://voxday.blogspot.ca/2014/05/the-source-of-misogyny.html)
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 25, 2014, 02:48:05 am
Fuck Vox Day. (http://voxday.blogspot.ca/2014/05/the-source-of-misogyny.html)
I could literally not be less phased right now.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist on May 25, 2014, 03:06:58 am
Certainly the disgust that any decent human being would feel upon reading that qualifies as being fazed, even if it's not shocking.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on May 25, 2014, 03:10:48 am
For a life that was supposedly so terrible he didn't look like he was doing that shoddy.

For fucks sake dude-22 years with parents that care about you, good physical health, decent looks, your own flat to live in and a nice car. If this is your situation at age 22 then your life is probably not that bad!

The overall impression I'm getting out of this mess is just a snapshot of the banality of evil, "I can't have exactly what I want and from who I want therefore you're all going to suffer."
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Dakota Bob on May 25, 2014, 03:15:40 am
Time for this video again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Søren on May 25, 2014, 03:18:08 am
Fuck Vox Day. (http://voxday.blogspot.ca/2014/05/the-source-of-misogyny.html)

Oh thats lovely xD
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: TheUnknown on May 25, 2014, 03:20:18 am
Fuck Vox Day. (http://voxday.blogspot.ca/2014/05/the-source-of-misogyny.html)

From the comments:

Quote
The lesson to be learned from this incident is that the idea of "fairness" that people have today is very, very dangerous. Younger people especially seem to think that life should be fair, and where it is not fair it should be made fair -- at gunpoint, if necessary. The desire for "fairness" lies behind feminism, the currently-fashionable hatred of whites ("white privilege"), the homosexual "marriage equality" dogma, and much more.

Many young people today simply cannot accept the obvious fact that natural inequalities exist in every sphere of life. The fact that some people simply are better than others enrages them. They cannot admit to themselves that "fair" does not exist.

This disordered desire for "fairness" is, of course, nothing but the same old sin of Pride that got us in this mess to begin with -- the desire to "know for ourselves good and evil", the desire to "become as God", ordering reality itself to serve our bottomless ego. It is not surprising that this murderer craved that which only God is due -- "adoration" -- and thought himself a god, rightly entitled to hand out death to those who refused to worship him.

Anyone want to guess which side of the "privilege" fence this douche is sitting on?

Quote
"The only focus of this kid's life was Getting Laid."

If you are a 22 year old male virgin, that will be a serious concern. Even an Omega knows that being a virgin much longer will make it that much harder to be successful with women, gentleman or not.

Fuck this shitstain in particular; this is exactly the mindset that caused this.  And that's why I hate how society automatically uses "he was crazy, nobody who does this can be considered sane" as an explanation for violent crime.  It's a scapegoat used to excuse harmful ideology that you continue to whole-heartedly believe in.  I mean, hey, this guy hasn't shot anyone, so it can't possibly be this mindset that helped contribute to this tragedy.

And yeah, the comments are full of that love-shy "alpha beta" shit terminology.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on May 25, 2014, 03:52:59 am
So, PoxDay's thesis is that the actions of a racist, misogynist arsehole with zero fucks for anyone else on the planet, actions motivated primarily by his fury that people he considers to be beneath him don't submit to his will, is all the fault of feminists, liberals and the doctrine of fairness.

Okey-dokey.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: TheUnknown on May 25, 2014, 03:57:48 am
So, PoxDay's thesis is that the actions of a racist, misogynist arsehole with zero fucks for anyone else on the planet, actions motivated primarily by his fury that people he considers to be beneath him don't submit to his will, is all the fault of feminists, liberals and the doctrine of fairness.

Okey-dokey.

The "fairness" rant wasn't from Vox, it was one of his commenters.  Unless he also mentioned it in his article, which I didn't read.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on May 25, 2014, 04:10:34 am
Yeah-fair enough.

Still, interesting to see one of Vox's fanboys trying to shift the blame onto people whose values are precisely the opposite of the shooters and, coincidently, of Vox Day and his fellow travellers.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Witchyjoshy on May 25, 2014, 04:12:37 am
Yeah-fair enough.

Still, interesting to see one of Vox's fanboys trying to shift the blame onto people whose values are precisely the opposite of the shooters and, coincidently, of Vox Day and his fellow travellers.

Even saw one that wanted to bet money on the shooter being liberal.

I want to bet money on how loud that commenter would squeal if someone twisted his arm.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: KZN02 on May 25, 2014, 04:32:10 am
(https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t1.0-9/10361406_10101642301232074_6051848729495662113_n.jpg)
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 25, 2014, 04:32:40 am
Certainly the disgust that any decent human being would feel upon reading that qualifies as being fazed, even if it's not shocking.
He's already admitted to notrape and said it was okay to shoot a schoolgirl in the head.
Is this even partially unexpected of him?
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: ironbite on May 25, 2014, 08:53:19 am
I love how this asshole assumes that he's gods gift to women and in his rampage, could only kill about two or 3 of them.  It's amazing how much supposed pain and suffering this coward thought he was under.  I really hope he took his own life once he realized that he wasn't the alpha predator he thought he was.

Ironbite-so the last thought in his mind was " Oh shit...I fucked up."
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on May 25, 2014, 08:57:08 am
Am I the only one reminded of that guy who thinks the government should give him a girlfriend?
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: rageaholic on May 25, 2014, 09:26:13 am
Am I the only one reminded of that guy who thinks the government should give him a girlfriend?

The incel blogger?  Looks like we found someone just as disturbed (if not more). 

Having seen two of the guys videos, I can't believe how... melodramatic he was.  It's not what I was expecting.   
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Barbarella on May 25, 2014, 01:52:43 pm
Spuki, that's what we were doing. For that matter I think you're the first to mention the word "gun" in this thread. Also, this happened in California.

Which is why I brought up the focus on mental stuff rather than gun control stuff. California has a lot of gun control laws. While I do believe in gun regulations & background checks, this case shows that that alone won't solve this big "shoot-em-up every week or so" trend we have.

Also, I am well aware that this freak was getting therapy & that he was likely an evil sociopath. We need better research into mental health, sociopathy & neurology.

It's not just this guy, it's a lot of people. We need to address mental health, we need to address the stupidity of machismo & "male entitlement", we need to teach character, manners & ethics in our schools. Not strict moralism but basic decency, cooperation, kindness, positivity, etc.

Anyway, this shooter/stabber/entitled douche got what he deserved in the end.....death as a virgin and a ticket to Inferno!
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Witchyjoshy on May 25, 2014, 02:49:12 pm
Spuki, I like you, but the problem with that line of thought is that it paints the idea that all mentally ill people are potential serial killers who could snap at any second.  That's already what some people think.

This isn't about mental health.  This is about society.  It doesn't matter if he was autistic, autism doesn't make you go crazy with a gun.  What made him go crazy with a gun was entitlement, misogyny, and so forth.

Bringing up mental health is just throwing the mentally ill under the bus.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Witchyjoshy on May 25, 2014, 03:20:50 pm
One thing we must all understand - every single person who has posted in this thread, who has posted on this forum, who will ever post on any forum in the history of time is capable of killing a person.

I could say something about how we're smart enough not to, but all of us are capable of making that choice.  Humans are not hardwired to be pacifists.  The truth is, we don't kill because we don't want to.  For various reasons.

And I'm not even talking about heat of the moment manslaughter.  All of us are capable of committing murder, too.

This is the harsh reality of what it means to be human.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Barbarella on May 25, 2014, 04:50:58 pm
Spuki, I like you, but the problem with that line of thought is that it paints the idea that all mentally ill people are potential serial killers who could snap at any second.  That's already what some people think.

This isn't about mental health.  This is about society.  It doesn't matter if he was autistic, autism doesn't make you go crazy with a gun.  What made him go crazy with a gun was entitlement, misogyny, and so forth.

Bringing up mental health is just throwing the mentally ill under the bus.

I know that. I'm not just discussing the mentally ill. I'M MENTALLY ILL. I know that the mentally ill aren't all evil violent nutsos. I want mental illness to lose it's stigma. I've been expressing that! Yes, I know he's likely just a guy who's an evil sociopath.

One thing we must all understand - every single person who has posted in this thread, who has posted on this forum, who will ever post on any forum in the history of time is capable of killing a person.

I could say something about how we're smart enough not to, but all of us are capable of making that choice.  Humans are not hardwired to be pacifists.  The truth is, we don't kill because we don't want to.  For various reasons.

And I'm not even talking about heat of the moment manslaughter.  All of us are capable of committing murder, too.

This is the harsh reality of what it means to be human.


I disagree. Many people who have a MASSIVELY hard time with killing someone willingly. Many who do kill in "the heat of the moment" or "self-defense" feel haunted by it long afterwards. Sorry, but humans are not bastards. We're flawed but we are not bastards. Rousseau was just as right as Hobbes....it just depends on the person.

HUMANITY IS.....

The highest & the lowest of the animals.
The wisest & the most foolish.
The most civilized & the most barbaric.
The most intelligent & the most ignorant.
The most reasonable yet the most unreasonable.
The closest relative to the gentle bonobos & the raging chimps.

You see, humanity is varied and to say that all humanity is scum is completely wrong. We can go either way. We can be peaceful or warmongering.

Either way, we need to turn away from our chimp sides & embrace our bonobo side. Yes, humanity can change. We can at least try. Many individuals have succeeded more or less, why not most of the species?

Also, this killer was basically an evil sociopath & not mentally ill. Yes, I get it! This is not about putting the mentally ill under the bus. WHY WOULD I PUT MYSELF UNDER A BUS? I was speaking in generals, about this long string of mass murders going on lately, not just this one case. Geeze, please read my stuff carefully.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 25, 2014, 05:00:12 pm
Also, last time I checked none of the symptoms of autism are "Going on rampage because women don't want to suck your malformed, shriveled, greasy, cock".

This is an example of the mentality we have created where guys are all entitled to a girls pants, and that "No." just means she wants a compromise.
Hell, pretty sure this mentality is responsible for the majority of rapes out there.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 25, 2014, 05:09:13 pm
Also, we should make the phrase "Not all men." Punishable by flogging.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on May 25, 2014, 05:40:50 pm
Also, we should make the phrase "Not all men." Punishable by flogging.
Okay, provided we apply that to all other groups.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 25, 2014, 05:52:38 pm
Also, we should make the phrase "Not all men." Punishable by flogging.
Okay, provided we apply that to all other groups.
Just so you know, the reason I hate that phrase is because every time someone says something that could even faintly imply something bad about men the MRA's all start screaming it.

Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 25, 2014, 06:00:37 pm
I'm going to not be talking about this any more for the most part.
I'm just really fucking pissed at this guy and the type of society that let him exist.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: rageaholic on May 25, 2014, 06:05:28 pm
Also, we should make the phrase "Not all men." Punishable by flogging.
Okay, provided we apply that to all other groups.
Just so you know, the reason I hate that phrase is because every time someone says something that could even faintly imply something bad about men the MRA's all start screaming it.

I'd go a step further and say that I'm sick of the phrase "Not all (insert group here)".  A lot of the time, the people saying it are the ones that fall into the negative stereotype.   
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 25, 2014, 06:52:15 pm
Also, we should make the phrase "Not all men." Punishable by flogging.
Okay, provided we apply that to all other groups.
Just so you know, the reason I hate that phrase is because every time someone says something that could even faintly imply something bad about men the MRA's all start screaming it.

I'd go a step further and say that I'm sick of the phrase "Not all (insert group here)".  A lot of the time, the people saying it are the ones that fall into the negative stereotype.
HEY not all people who say not all (insert group here) are like that!
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Witchyjoshy on May 25, 2014, 07:17:28 pm
-snip-

The problem is that I'm fairly certain this guy isn't a sociopath, but we're quick to label him as such.  We've painted this idea that sociopaths are all budding serial killers, that is what society seems to believe right now.  There's at least two sociopaths on this forum who are as well-adjusted as they can be in their respective situations.

Please read my posts more carefully.  I said that we don't commit murders because we don't want to.  There are many reasons for this.  We may value human life too much.  But any one of us, if we chose to, COULD commit a murder.  Even you.

You don't want to, and Spuki, that's a good thing.  It's a good thing that people don't want to commit murders.  But as I said, we aren't hardwired to be pacifists.  When something makes us angry, we ball up our fists, in an instinctive urge to fight.  We hold ourselves back.  That's a good thing.

This isn't pessimism.  This is a need to educate people that murderers aren't always insane freaks whose brains are fucked up by <insert reason here>.  We always look for reasons, excuses for why they did it (more so when the killer appears white) and try to pass them off as an anomaly.  All so we can absolve ourselves, as a society, of responsibility.  And the truth of the matter is, more often than not, killers are normal people who decided to kill someone because they felt that it was appropriate retribution for the wrongs that were done to them, or even that it benefited society.

The problem isn't that he's mentally ill.  The problem isn't that he's a sociopath.  The problem is that society taught him that he deserved sex, that he deserved attention, that he was a loser if he was a virgin, and that violence is an acceptable way to get what you want.

It isn't a mental health issue.  This isn't an issue of mental health care failing him.  This is a failure of society, and a failure of the killer's own morality.

This is NOT an attack on you, Spuki.  This is just something that is important.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on May 25, 2014, 07:40:53 pm
Also, we should make the phrase "Not all men." Punishable by flogging.
Okay, provided we apply that to all other groups.
Just so you know, the reason I hate that phrase is because every time someone says something that could even faintly imply something bad about men the MRA's all start screaming it.

I'd go a step further and say that I'm sick of the phrase "Not all (insert group here)".  A lot of the time, the people saying it are the ones that fall into the negative stereotype.
That's easy to say when it's a member of a dominant group using that line.  But what if it's a member of an oppressed minority saying it?
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: KZN02 on May 25, 2014, 07:56:50 pm
A friend of mine at UCSB had this to say:

Quote
You know, people kept trying to ask me yesterday about the shooting. this is my HONEST two cents:

of course we should sympathize and help the victims and their families
but
we are looking at this Eliot freak in the wrong way, rather than fearing people like him or being upset/sympathetic wit what he became, we need to make fun of him. By laughing at him for his failures it will desecrate his to be short lived memory without unnecessarily romanticizing the situation.
I watched his dumb vlogs and it's obvious this guy was not sane. he says the exact same things in his later ones tirelessly.

there is a lot i can say about this, but nobody truly cares enough to divulge that much into it
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on May 25, 2014, 08:07:58 pm
The irony is that this guy really wasn't all that different from the pick-up artists he hated so much.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: R. U. Sirius on May 25, 2014, 08:23:38 pm
Am I honestly the only one here with an ounce of sympathy for the shooter himself?

Yes, what he did was horrible beyond measure. The fact that he decided his "need" to get laid outweighed other people's lives shows a serious imbalance in his priorities and a seriously fucked-up sense of entitlement. There are certain things that everyone, as human beings, is entitled to; sex isn't one of them.

At the same time, though, everything I read about him (and no, I haven't watched his videos) shows him to be intensely lonely and isolated, possibly with other MRAs as his only social contacts, possibly even only online. Quite frankly, I've been there. I can count the number of friends I had growing up on one hand. I've had precisely two girlfriends in my twenty-nine years, both since turning twenty, neither lasting more than a year, in a society that paints any man who goes more than a week without getting laid as a pathetic loser; I don't go for one-night stands. I've been rejected by women I desired so many times that I spent most of my teens and twenties convinced there was something irretrievably wrong with me that made me inherently undesirable; I'm still not entirely convinced otherwise, especially in light of my criminal history. Very often, the guys they did go for were blatantly abusive, whether verbally, physically or simply abusing their trust by sleeping around or stealing from and mooching off them, and I've literally had women tell me I was "too nice" for them. I still fight down jealousy whenever I hear one of my younger friends or coworkers talking about their love lives, especially since they're typically in relationships that have lasted years and look well on the way to marriage, while I've all but given up on finding a partner to spend my life with. I know what it's like to be so angry and depressed and jealous that all I wanted to do was tear the world down. Put simply: Under slightly different circumstances, that could have been me.

None of this excuses what he did. There's no question in my mind that he was a sick person, whether it would fall under the clinical definition of mental illness or he had simply been twisted by MRA philosophy and an overblown sense of entitlement. But a lot of the comments I see posted here seem to try and paint him as something other than human, some outside "other" that not only deserves no compassion because of what he did, but never deserved any in the first place. That is something I find very disturbing.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: ironbite on May 25, 2014, 08:33:38 pm
Nothing excuses what this privileged asshole did.  But I kinda feel myself feeling sorry for him.  Here's an idiot who couldn't see the forest for the trees and just expected women to line up and suck his cock and be grateful for that.  That type of entitlement doesn't come from society telling you how to be a man.  That's what we as a society have turned kids into.  Special snowflakes.  Problem is, when everyone's a special snowflake, you just make a mess.

SWITCHING GEARS NOW!  Faux Noise had something interesting to say (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/05/25/fox-news-expert-suggests-homosexual-impulses-triggered-calif-mass-shooting/).  Or rather spew.

Quote
Reality television psychologist Dr. Robi Ludwig asserted to Fox News that a mass shooting in California over the weekend may have been triggered because the suspect could not cope with his “homosexual impulses.”

In a videos posted on YouTube, 22-year-old Elliot Rodger explained that he had planned a shooting rampage to get retribution on women for rejecting him.

“All you girls who rejected me and looked down upon me and treated me like scum, while you gave yourself to other men,” Rodger said just hours before gunning down six people near UC Santa Barbara’s campus. “And all of you men for living a better life than me. All of you sexually active men. I hate you.”

By late Saturday night, Ludwig was speculating to Fox News that Rodger’s gay feelings had turned him into a mass murderer.

That's right.  It wasn't the girls he wanted.  It was the guys.

Ironbite-*supernovas*
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: TheUnknown on May 25, 2014, 08:36:21 pm
Nothing excuses what this privileged asshole did.  But I kinda feel myself feeling sorry for him.  Here's an idiot who couldn't see the forest for the trees and just expected women to line up and suck his cock and be grateful for that.  That type of entitlement doesn't come from society telling you how to be a man.  That's what we as a society have turned kids into.  Special snowflakes.  Problem is, when everyone's a special snowflake, you just make a mess.

SWITCHING GEARS NOW!  Faux Noise had something interesting to say (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/05/25/fox-news-expert-suggests-homosexual-impulses-triggered-calif-mass-shooting/).  Or rather spew.

Quote
Reality television psychologist Dr. Robi Ludwig asserted to Fox News that a mass shooting in California over the weekend may have been triggered because the suspect could not cope with his “homosexual impulses.”

In a videos posted on YouTube, 22-year-old Elliot Rodger explained that he had planned a shooting rampage to get retribution on women for rejecting him.

“All you girls who rejected me and looked down upon me and treated me like scum, while you gave yourself to other men,” Rodger said just hours before gunning down six people near UC Santa Barbara’s campus. “And all of you men for living a better life than me. All of you sexually active men. I hate you.”

By late Saturday night, Ludwig was speculating to Fox News that Rodger’s gay feelings had turned him into a mass murderer.

That's right.  It wasn't the girls he wanted.  It was the guys.

Ironbite-*supernovas*

Oh my god, I saw comments on an article yesterday that speculated the same thing, based solely on his face.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: KZN02 on May 25, 2014, 08:38:33 pm
All victims identified (http://abc7.com/news/isla-vista-killing-spree-all-victims-identified/76775/)

It just happens a friend of mine still attending UCSB, but was already gone for the weekend, saw the Asian victims before at the computer lab. Sucks to have know these were fellow computer science or computer engineer majors.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Witchyjoshy on May 25, 2014, 08:42:54 pm
Oh look, a shitty "psychologist" grabbing for attention on a not-news station which does nothing but grab for attention to begin with.

I'd compare them to vultures, but vultures are clean birds and associating them with this filth is an insult to reality.

As for why I don't feel sympathy for the killer... he lost the right to my sympathy when he killed a bunch of innocent people because he was a virgin.  However, don't mistake lack of sympathy for dehumanization.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: rageaholic on May 25, 2014, 08:43:48 pm
I was sympathetic at first, but then I saw a copy of his "retribution" video where he makes an even bigger ass of himself.  He calls himself a "supreme gentleman" and then two seconds later, says he will "punish you all".  It's clear that despite his pretentious way of talking, he's not really interested in a relationship, he just wanted pussy, and he felt entitled to it. 

And just for the hell of it, a conspiracy theory from youtube comments.

Quote
Please note how eloquent he speaks people. He never stammers for his words, never an ummmmm, doesn't pause to formulate a thought and js emotionally numb. It seems too scripted. Think about it. Mkultra, illuminati, movie jndustry, and father is a director. He's a damn mancherian candate...those that study the jndustry will understand kt and bet it. Linguists will agree that somethjng is fishy with the speech pattern....brainwashed to kill.they need events to get to the act of disarming the people. You tube Rosanna Bar as she exposes the truth as othes have. 
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on May 25, 2014, 08:48:33 pm
Am I honestly the only one here with an ounce of sympathy for the shooter himself?

I'd be sympathetic right up until the point he got stabby and shooty.

I was also diagnosed with asbergers, later I was told that I was misdiagnosed. I've since been told that what was bugging me when I was a teen and since was a combination of PTSD, anxiety and depression. Like you I wasn't exactly a crash hit with the ladies. I know I'm speaking from a position of relative comfort now that I've been in a relationship for the last six years. If I went and shot a bunch of people because I was feeling lonely, hard done by or whatever at any time in my life that would make me an arsehole worthy of no sympathy at all!

The whole mental illness thing is nuanced, having neurological or mental illness issues can affect behavior-to claim otherwise flies in the face of all empirical evidence to the contrary.  Mental illness or neurological problems do not, however, guarantee behavior nor does their presence indicate that people will inevitably become violent. As has been said already, shooting people because you're feeling generally angsty is not one of the symptoms of aspergers, or depression, or anxiety, or schizophrenia, or bipolar.

The media has a tendency to simplify the shit out of mitigating factors, be they ones that actually have an established relationship with violent crime like alcohol or childhood trauma, more questionable ones like mental illness or completely ridiculous ones like Dungeons and Dragons. If anything affects someone's decision to do something bad it's a question of degree-not if X then ragey violent douchebag! 
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: davedan on May 25, 2014, 09:23:59 pm
I have trouble feeling any sympathy for him at all. He didn't have the guts to ask a girl that he liked out but had enough to buy weapons and start attacking people. He was a self inolved little shit.  What's iteresting is that he didn't get along with men or women. The lack of ability to make friends meant that he lacked the ability to get girlfriends too.

As for being told you are 'too nice', I'm sorry that means one of two things either that you are boring and the person is feeling sorry for you and doesn't want to be harsh or that the person is fucked up with daddy issues. 

We've all known those people who try too hard to be liked (quite inventively we called them 'try-hards') the reason they put you off, apart from the innate insincerity you feel given their propensity to try and pleasure, is that by agreeing with everything they don't have any opinions and provide no challenge. They become boring.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 25, 2014, 11:24:59 pm
I'm a bit surprised that he only got two women, the rest were men.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: TheUnknown on May 25, 2014, 11:36:41 pm
I'm a bit surprised that he only got two women, the rest were men.

According to a news segment I watched today, he fully intended to shoot up a sorority house, but when his little plan failed because actual women don't live by horror movie logic (meaning that they wouldn't open their door for an asshole aggressively pounding on it), he shot at the three women standing near the building, killing two of them.  My guess is, at that point, he just decided to shoot anyone he came across, and the ones who got killed just happened to guys.  That last part is speculation though.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Random Gal on May 25, 2014, 11:58:05 pm
NRA statement that the victims wouldn't have died if they'd had guns incoming, I'm sure.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 26, 2014, 12:02:12 am
When that don't work use MORE gun.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist on May 26, 2014, 12:21:27 am
Certainly the disgust that any decent human being would feel upon reading that qualifies as being fazed, even if it's not shocking.
He's already admitted to notrape and said it was okay to shoot a schoolgirl in the head.
Is this even partially unexpected of him?

No one is shocked that he'd say something like this, so you can stop pulling the whole "I, as a connoisseur of the internet, expected this" bit someone always has to spout when a known asshole says something terrible and people try to discuss it. Being surprised by something and being disgusted by it aren't the same thing, as you should be well aware of from your own professed disgust at the very much not shocking course of "not all men are like that!" that springs up any time someone tries to discuss sexism.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Alehksunos on May 26, 2014, 02:35:27 am
"Not all men" reminds me of the apologists of the MLP:FiM fandom spouting "But we're not all like that", oblivious to the issue. I can't even stand that phrase.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Barbarella on May 26, 2014, 10:54:00 am
"Not all men" reminds me of the apologists of the MLP:FiM fandom spouting "But we're not all like that", oblivious to the issue. I can't even stand that phrase.

(click to show/hide)

That said, I don't believe in bad-mouthing bronies. If a guy likes MLP-FiM, that's his right. In fact, it's refreshing. Also, FiM is pretty cool enough to get a strong periphery demographic. The earlier versions were clearly cheesy kiddie stuff but FiM is cool. That said, I'm am still floored that SOME bronies are the antithesis of the show they love. Why would a children's cartoon that is now known for strong, independent, intelligent, spunky, self-sufficient & awesome female characters get some misogynist troglodytes as fans. It's like a peacenik 60's Woodstock flowerchild being a big fan of John Wayne's The Green Berets. It makes no sense.

That said, I think ragging on bronies, LARPers, furries, otherkin, emos, Nickleback fans, etc. is really stupid. Look, even if you find something weird or dorky, just say "not my cup of tea" and leave it at that. People should be judged by their character, not if they're LARPing emo Nickleback fans who believe they're really Pinkie Pie trapped in a human body. "Is the person a total jerk or not" is sufficient enough. Some folks are weird, we should embrace the non-conformist weirdos of the world! As long as they're not weird in a bad "chew the face off a homeless guy" way, they're fine.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Dr. Weird on May 26, 2014, 11:17:21 am
Well, we had to see this coming...


Sick Idiots Create Elliot Rodgers Fansites (http://crooksandliars.com/2014/05/sick-idiots-create-elliot-rodgers-fansites)

Quote
The Return of Kings article, written by ‘Roosh,’ goes to elaborate lengths to explain that thePUA-hate community that Rodger was a part of held him back from learning the “masculine” art of seduction – which they call “game” – and, combined with the “American media, the blogosphere, men’s rights activists, and progressive organizations like the Southern Poverty Law Center,” Rodger was encouraged to hate and ultimately murder women.

Here's an example of Roosh's logic:

    Rodger should have checked his male privilege at the door and atoned for the sins of thousands of years of “male patriarchy.” He was likely exposed to infantile “trigger warnings” during the course of his education. He received direct propaganda that insinuates all men are potential rapists. American universities are becoming firmly anti-male with its extreme left ideology and policies. Just recently, the Justice Department has ushered in directives that attempt to restrict the definition of consensual sex, making any attempt by Rodger to fornicate with a female at a college party as a potential rape encounter that would have gotten him kicked out of school without a trial. Pro-female policies now dominate most American universities. Rodger would definitely not have received a sympathetic ear to his plight.

Yeah.  It's all the fault of the women who wouldn't put out blah blah blah.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Barbarella on May 26, 2014, 11:27:53 am
Well, we had to see this coming...


Sick Idiots Create Elliot Rodgers Fansites (http://crooksandliars.com/2014/05/sick-idiots-create-elliot-rodgers-fansites)

Quote
The Return of Kings article, written by ‘Roosh,’ goes to elaborate lengths to explain that thePUA-hate community that Rodger was a part of held him back from learning the “masculine” art of seduction – which they call “game” – and, combined with the “American media, the blogosphere, men’s rights activists, and progressive organizations like the Southern Poverty Law Center,” Rodger was encouraged to hate and ultimately murder women.

Here's an example of Roosh's logic:

    Rodger should have checked his male privilege at the door and atoned for the sins of thousands of years of “male patriarchy.” He was likely exposed to infantile “trigger warnings” during the course of his education. He received direct propaganda that insinuates all men are potential rapists. American universities are becoming firmly anti-male with its extreme left ideology and policies. Just recently, the Justice Department has ushered in directives that attempt to restrict the definition of consensual sex, making any attempt by Rodger to fornicate with a female at a college party as a potential rape encounter that would have gotten him kicked out of school without a trial. Pro-female policies now dominate most American universities. Rodger would definitely not have received a sympathetic ear to his plight.

Yeah.  It's all the fault of the women who wouldn't put out blah blah blah.

(http://i39.tinypic.com/2s7fivd.jpg)


Well, there's only one way to deal with this....with a  :-* sweetly feminine touch :-*......

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2zgvps4.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/mt3spu.jpg)(http://i40.tinypic.com/2zhh5pi.jpg)
(http://i44.tinypic.com/34haph1.jpg)(http://i42.tinypic.com/2hdyvdw.jpg)

There's a reason the Dharmic faiths of South India consider POWER a Feminine thing. After all Sugar does come with SPICE!

I do wonder how one dork managed to overpower & stab to death three men. Either it was epic adrenaline or a one-by-one deal while they were sleeping. And why target those guys? Was he jealous because they were "chick magnets" or was he just a total misanthrope?
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Dakota Bob on May 26, 2014, 12:13:57 pm
Sad thing is, that isn't a new phenomenon. haven't people been making fansites and fangroups for the Columbine killers and stuff? fucked up.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Barbarella on May 26, 2014, 12:39:14 pm
Sad thing is, that isn't a new phenomenon. haven't people been making fansites and fangroups for the Columbine killers and stuff? fucked up.

Yeah, I still remember "Free Jahar" & "Holmies", *huhhhh boyyyy*... :P
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 26, 2014, 01:25:34 pm
Certainly the disgust that any decent human being would feel upon reading that qualifies as being fazed, even if it's not shocking.
He's already admitted to notrape and said it was okay to shoot a schoolgirl in the head.
Is this even partially unexpected of him?

No one is shocked that he'd say something like this, so you can stop pulling the whole "I, as a connoisseur of the internet, expected this" bit someone always has to spout when a known asshole says something terrible and people try to discuss it. Being surprised by something and being disgusted by it aren't the same thing, as you should be well aware of from your own professed disgust at the very much not shocking course of "not all men are like that!" that springs up any time someone tries to discuss sexism.
Yeah, okay I will admit I was being pretentious.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 26, 2014, 01:29:35 pm
Also, on the fansites.
I'm guessing this guy will get a lot bigger fandom as the internet hates women passionately.
I'll expect twice as many
"Say, did you ever consider the murderer was really just insane and it we should really blame the women?"   
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: KZN02 on May 26, 2014, 03:26:53 pm
Quote from: SpukiKitty
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2zgvps4.jpg)
Is it bad that I enjoyed playing Other M and was fine with the story?
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Witchyjoshy on May 26, 2014, 03:40:42 pm
Quote from: SpukiKitty
-snip-
Is it bad that I enjoyed playing Other M and was fine with the story?

No, it is not.  I am curious what you liked about the story, though.  You don't have to explain it if you don't feel comfortable.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: KZN02 on May 26, 2014, 03:46:21 pm
Quote from: SpukiKitty
-snip-
Is it bad that I enjoyed playing Other M and was fine with the story?

No, it is not.  I am curious what you liked about the story, though.  You don't have to explain it if you don't feel comfortable.
I thought it mostly made sense why Adam had to authorize Samus' equipment, one being not endangering fellow soldiers, and the other I believe was cost. Samus, being a bounty hunter, has to charge the Galactic Federation for her services and equipment and I'm sure Adam was trying to keep the bill down until it was absolutely necessary (though I do admit the Varia Suit should have been authorized as soon as Samus was in the lava zone).
For Samus' breakdown against Ridley, I have a feeling fans are holding Samus too much to the same standards to the likes of Mario and Link. Those 2 never had mentally scarring events involving their nemesis like Samus did (which was Ridley and his Space Pirates killing her parents, fellow humans, and the settlement she was in). Mario just has to deal with Bowser kidnapping Peach and Link usually has a different incarnation in every game.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Witchyjoshy on May 26, 2014, 04:00:31 pm
As far as the authorizing equipment thing goes... I went with the idea that Adam didn't realize that Samus didn't have her Varia suit activated until he noticed it later.  Still, Samus acting that way towards him is not how a soldier generally reacts to her commanding officer, even when she's no longer a soldier.  I used to be okay with that but now I kinda don't like it.

As far as the breakdown against Ridley... seems like standard Hollywood PTSD to me.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Alehksunos on May 26, 2014, 05:17:55 pm
The problem I have with Other M (even though I have not played it and never will) is the Character Derailment and possible Canon Defilement involving Samus' character. I mean we've all regarded her as a "badass", even though yes there is a human side to her (like her relationship with the baby Metroid she recovered at the end of Metroid II and that plays a key role in the beginning and final boss of Super Metroid). Other M reduces her to a bratty womanchild and unlike the Samus we know - preferring to work alone - she doesn't do anything unless she is urgently demanded to. I can see the difference between training her to become what we know of her now to acting all frail and worthless. She got reduced to a character almost like that submissive "femme fem" Samus male fans reduce her to in numerous stories (several of them pornographic and just plain disgusting).

I regard Other M with the same amount of contempt as games like Sonic the Hedgehog 2006 and Bomberman: Act Zero; two abominations that have futzed with two other game franchises I've loved and respect. Then there are some people who hold their nose to other potential franchise-killer games, like fans of Crash Bandicoot for example, who regard Crash of the Titans with whole-hearted contempt.

And for a little known character who is like Samus (and predating her existence to the year of 1985), I will not forget the existence of Tobi "Kissy" Masuyo, the protagonist of a little known game Baraduke. Other fun facts include that she got married to Taizo "Dig Dug" Hori and had three sons, the middle child Susumu Hori being the protagonist of Mr. Driller. Sadly their relationship goes to hell and they got divorced, because Taizo is an idiot. Oh, the joy of being in love with little-known, niche video games...
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: TheUnknown on May 26, 2014, 05:21:11 pm
The PC of Baraduke was a girl?
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Alehksunos on May 26, 2014, 05:30:31 pm
Someone else who has heard of Baraduke? And yes. If you're able to reach the end of the game there is a portrait of the player character without her helmet, revealing a woman inside the suit. Much like the end of the original Metroid (if you beat it in enough time).

The player character for the underwhelming, even less known sequel, Takky (who was Kissy's partner in Baraduke, filling as Player 2) is also female. I think, because one Japanese man who is so into classic arcade games did a bunch of pixel dolls of almost every known woman in almost every known arcade game.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 26, 2014, 05:42:52 pm
I have trouble feeling any sympathy for him at all. He didn't have the guts to ask a girl that he liked out but had enough to buy weapons and start attacking people. He was a self inolved little shit.  What's iteresting is that he didn't get along with men or women. The lack of ability to make friends meant that he lacked the ability to get girlfriends too.

As for being told you are 'too nice', I'm sorry that means one of two things either that you are boring and the person is feeling sorry for you and doesn't want to be harsh or that the person is fucked up with daddy issues. 

We've all known those people who try too hard to be liked (quite inventively we called them 'try-hards') the reason they put you off, apart from the innate insincerity you feel given their propensity to try and pleasure, is that by agreeing with everything they don't have any opinions and provide no challenge. They become boring.

Yeaaaah...sorry, Sirius, I'm not sympathizing with this fucker at all.  He couldn't get his dick wet because he was, quite likely, a creepy prick and decided that, since he didn't get what he was so clearly owed because he had a penis and didn't beat women on sight, that he'd...well, shoot women on sight.

Yes, he had some serious fucking problems, but in the end, he just couldn't own up to potentially having...A FLAW!  He's like my fuckhead cousin that knowingly infected his (now ex-)wife and their child with multiple STDs because he's a god damned sociopath with a massive superiority complex.

What he (both this fucker and my cousin) was both monstrous and unforgivable.  I understand why he did it, but I will never sympathize with him.  Outside him going to prison, what happened was the closest the victims will get to proper justice.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 26, 2014, 05:43:36 pm
Also, we should make the phrase "Not all men." Punishable by flogging.
Okay, provided we apply that to all other groups.
Just so you know, the reason I hate that phrase is because every time someone says something that could even faintly imply something bad about men the MRA's all start screaming it.

I'd go a step further and say that I'm sick of the phrase "Not all (insert group here)".  A lot of the time, the people saying it are the ones that fall into the negative stereotype.
That's easy to say when it's a member of a dominant group using that line.  But what if it's a member of an oppressed minority saying it?
Well even then you could probably come up with a better argument.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: WatermelonRat on May 26, 2014, 07:45:35 pm
"Not all men" reminds me of the apologists of the MLP:FiM fandom spouting "But we're not all like that", oblivious to the issue. I can't even stand that phrase.

(click to show/hide)
The "not all men" line derails discussions because the person it is used against typically has made no actual statements implying they consider the majority of men to be guilty of what is being discussed.

If, on the other hand, a person is making an argument that portrays a given group of people as overwhelmingly adhering to a negative characteristic (for instance, if someone were to claim that a fandom was, and I quote "dominated by sociopaths") then it becomes a very valid response.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Søren on May 26, 2014, 07:50:23 pm
Ewwww being autistic and watching the show is a stereotype now?

Thank god i stayed right the fuck away from it
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 26, 2014, 08:39:27 pm
What is everyone's opinions on the #Yesallwomen thing or the #Yesallpeople thing?
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Søren on May 26, 2014, 09:03:22 pm
From the twitters ive read, good concept, but i doubt itll do much
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on May 26, 2014, 09:06:58 pm
These fucking neckdreads defending him make me sick.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: TheUnknown on May 26, 2014, 10:39:17 pm
Saw this on my dash in criticism of all the "not all men" posts that pop up after incidents like this:

Quote
[About the École Polytechnique massacre]

A memorial erected in Vancouver sparked controversy because it was dedicated to "all women murdered by men", which critics say implies all men are potential murderers.  As a result, women involved in the project received death threats and the Vancouver Park Board subsequently banned any future memorials that might "antagonize" other groups.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre)

The irony is so thick you could choke on it.  Also, the aftermath of this incident seems to be playing out similar to that one; people insisting it's not a case of misogyny, that there's no larger problem and that this an "isolated incident" with "mental issues" being the most convenient scapegoat that has ever existed, and masculinist assholes hailing the criminal as a hero and blaming feminism and women for the violence perpetrated against women because "men are growing frustrated".
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 26, 2014, 11:40:07 pm
Yeah, how dare women not suck are greasy dicks!
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 26, 2014, 11:47:55 pm
From the twitters ive read, good concept, but i doubt itll do much
I'm guessing most of the Tweeters know that to a certain degree and are mostly just screaming in hopes of doing something.

Also, just like to say the #Yesallpoeple thing is absurdly cringeworthy.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: TheUnknown on May 27, 2014, 12:04:01 am
From the twitters ive read, good concept, but i doubt itll do much
I'm guessing most of the Tweeters know that to a certain degree and are mostly just screaming in hopes of doing something.

Also, just like to say the #Yesallpoeple thing is absurdly cringeworthy.

One of the tweets said that TIME wrote an article accusing the tag of "taking focus away from the issue of mental health".
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Søren on May 27, 2014, 12:17:20 am
Am i the only one not actually bothered by the "not all x" concept. Even as a gay man i couldnt care less if a straight guy goes "not all straight people"
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Cloud3514 on May 27, 2014, 12:37:02 am
From the twitters ive read, good concept, but i doubt itll do much
I'm guessing most of the Tweeters know that to a certain degree and are mostly just screaming in hopes of doing something.

Also, just like to say the #Yesallpoeple thing is absurdly cringeworthy.

One of the tweets said that TIME wrote an article accusing the tag of "taking focus away from the issue of mental health".

Which might have been a good point if the shooter hadn't been of sound mind and only did it because he was just an awful piece of shit of a person.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 27, 2014, 12:53:26 am
Am i the only one not actually bothered by the "not all x" concept. Even as a gay man i couldnt care less if a straight guy goes "not all straight people"
The thing is guys will try and hijack conversations about sexism.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 27, 2014, 12:55:31 am
From the twitters ive read, good concept, but i doubt itll do much
I'm guessing most of the Tweeters know that to a certain degree and are mostly just screaming in hopes of doing something.

Also, just like to say the #Yesallpoeple thing is absurdly cringeworthy.

One of the tweets said that TIME wrote an article accusing the tag of "taking focus away from the issue of mental health".
...you owe me the cost of that aspirin.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: rageaholic on May 27, 2014, 11:01:41 am
"Not all men" reminds me of the apologists of the MLP:FiM fandom spouting "But we're not all like that", oblivious to the issue. I can't even stand that phrase.

(click to show/hide)
The "not all men" line derails discussions because the person it is used against typically has made no actual statements implying they consider the majority of men to be guilty of what is being discussed.

If, on the other hand, a person is making an argument that portrays a given group of people as overwhelmingly adhering to a negative characteristic (for instance, if someone were to claim that a fandom was, and I quote "dominated by sociopaths") then it becomes a very valid response.

This is often a problem when debating Christians.  You'll mention that some Christians are well... nuts... and you'll get told to stop generalizing.  Then in the same breath, they'll say such and such aren't true Christians because they don't do such and such.  Heck, you could even quote the bible to point out some of the horrendous stuff in there and get told you're taking it out of context.  But of course, *they* never take the bible out of context, no not them.   ::)

As for the people who are in any way implying that the girls who rejected this creep are responsible for what happened.  FUCK THEM.  They are not obligated to date what ever weirdo they come across. 
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Stormwarden on May 27, 2014, 12:59:03 pm
From my Facebook:

 tend to wait a while before commenting on mass shootings of any sort...well, time for my two cents.

I can't feel bad for the shooter in the Santa Barbara shootings. I simply can't bring myself to shed any tears for a self-entitled idiot who somehow honestly believed that the accident of his birth, coupled with his money, his car, etc, entitled him to free pussy, and that he was free to murder anyone he desired if he didn't get it.

Now, I know the Men's Rights sorts are up in arms over it, but keep this in mind, especially if you're one of them: MOST OF THE PEOPLE HE KILLED AND WOUNDED WERE -MEN-. Not the women so many MRAs hate so much, but men. Let that sink in. And if they were all women? I'd be just as angry as I am now.

And before someone tells me "well, he was mentally ill," BULLSHIT. Four different shrinks gave him a clean bill of health and he managed to fool deputies (who even if they weren't, law and procedure in the US would have prevented them from looking for the firearms).

That brings me to the next point of discussion: Where the hell were the parents? They provided the shrinks and tried to get him treated, yes, but why didn't they use their eyes to find those guns? To be fair, the LEOs dropped the ball too, as did the gun stores that sold him the guns (he bought from different stores).

The media is another source of fury for me. Me and VJ were talking about it last night, and this point stands: The truth will set you free, and that scares the powers that be shitless. They want a bunch of clay people that are easy to manipulate, easy to lie to, and easy to sell whatever bile they try to send. They're the ones that feed the attention whores who so often do all this. They're the ones that profit from it.

And so many wonder why I turn to PBS, BBC, and Al-Jazeera for anything more than local news. Okay, and I also turn to Jon Stewart and The Colbert Report. When comedians do a better job at the news than our press, we have a big fucking problem.

The availability of the firearm is another problem. Someone, somewhere, dropped the ball in Cali. The cops are searching one of the gun shops he went to now, but I hold out little hope for any meaningful consequences.

Look at it from the POV of the owner:dude walks in, seems legit, has all the proper paperwork, and the background check says he's clean. You don't know about the shrinks, or the other guns he bought because you don't have a database on those other firearms.

The lack of a computer database stems from a 1986 federal law banning computer databases on guns and their owners. And given how the Teabaggers and the NRA aren't going to let that change in the near future. Some will say that it should be a wakeup call, but that should have happened with the myriad other mass shootings we had, especially Newtown and Virginia Tech.

And given the precedents and utter failure of our pols, I don't expect much. I'll shed tears for the victims, and those who have to live with the consequences of that vile piece of filth for the rest of their days, but point me to his grave, and I'll have a breakdancing party on it.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: KZN02 on May 27, 2014, 02:42:48 pm
So my sister went back to her college for a memorial of the deceased, and her high school is holding one as well. Really hits home.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: TheUnknown on May 27, 2014, 04:46:14 pm
I was just told by my grandma that the shooter's mom is now blaming mental health professionals.

Edit:  Just saw this post:

(https://31.media.tumblr.com/5b7ab3591a29c3df6002ace2660dd09c/tumblr_n67s0opyHD1rpk8qao1_500.png)
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Radiation on May 27, 2014, 05:24:48 pm
It is unfortunate when things like this happen and I feel for the families, I do, and I also feel for the killer. In a way, he was broken and no one seemed to care until it started to get out of control.

On the other hand, this guy was living a dream life of being rich and having more privilege than most people in the world and all he could focus on was trying to lose his virginity. Shit, I'm a 34 year old female that's a virgin and while there are times that I get lonely, most of the time I don't care and the fact that I haven't slept with anybody yet doesn't make me a homicidal maniac that believes that a certain group of people are against me and therefore "should be punished." This guy felt he was entitled to having life give him things rather than to work for it.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Damen on May 27, 2014, 05:49:20 pm
Honestly, I was going to say something earlier, but those "manifestos" that got posted way, way back literally left me speechless. I can't think of anything I can say to that, it is that...bad. I can't think of any modifier that would be accurate enough, so "bad" will have to do.

Stormwarden, I like you and thoroughly enjoy your posts. Your Facebook post is one which I by and large agree with, but the last bit is one I see as faulty reasoning.

The number of guns this guy bought isn't a indicator of future violent action. I myself have four firearms in my bedroom alone and there are others throughout the house. This does not mean I am a hair's breath away from picking out targets on the street corner. Similarly, if I met someone who has a large selection of firearms, I would not presume them to be a budding spree-killer; merely a collector or hobbyist.

While you and I both seem to place a heap of blame on the parents, we do so for different reasons. I lay blame on them for not teaching this brat that the universe does not revolve around him and if he wants a girlfriend, he shouldn't expect one to just drop into his lap. Look at his writings that were posted on page 3 and you'll see the writings of someone who is so egotistical, entitled and self-absorbed that the only thing I can think is that at some point in his upbringing, the parents stopped paying attention long enough for this twisted reasoning to take a firm hold in his brain. Whatever the cause, be it the fact that he was brought up being given everything (such as the beamer his parents bought him) or thinking that him being "half white" and descended from aristocracy entitled him to something, I just don't think his parents were doing a good job of raising him and teaching him ethics and morals. And don't forget, he didn't live with his parents, he lived in an apartment with two roommates with the roommates and a visitor were his stabbing victims.

And the last thing to keep in mind, this happened in California, which has some of the toughest gun laws in the nation. To buy a handgun in California, you have to pass a test to get a Handgun Safety Certificate, you can only buy 1 handgun a month, there is a mandatory 10 day wait before taking possession of a handgun, all handguns have to be registered with the California DOJ, private transfers have to go through an FFL, and you have to perform a Safe Handling Demonstration when buying a handgun. All reports indicate that he followed every single law required of a firearm purchaser, which means he passed all the tests, passed the background checks, both a NICS checks and California's own state run background check, waited the required time between his purchases which would be just about 4 months for all three pistols (including 1 gun a month, the 10-day wait between buying and taking possession and having to have a background check and test done before each purchase) and he only used California legal 10-round magazines. And with all of that, he still managed to go on his killing spree.

This person was twisted and seemed to have had this planned out for quite a while. Someone like that can't be stopped by restrictive laws as he demonstrated. All that can be done is to try and be a better parent than his were and when they start showing warning signs (such as his videos and writings) do everything you can to get them help and always keep an eye on them.

But when someone is truly evil, which I believe this cumwad was, there is very little you can do. We just can't mandate everyone have a conscience.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Ironchew on May 27, 2014, 06:08:52 pm
The number of guns this guy bought isn't a indicator of future violent action.

It's easy in hindsight to say he was a clear danger to others, but had I known before the fact that he had a deep-seated misanthropy, all those guns would have set off red flags in my head.

I just don't think his parents were doing a good job of raising him and teaching him ethics and morals.

Yet another reason why we can't expect everyone in the country to be responsible with their guns. There has to be a system put in place to take guns away from irresponsible owners.

And the last thing to keep in mind, this happened in California, which has some of the toughest gun laws in the nation.

That honestly isn't saying much. If California had gun laws similar to many European countries and the benefits of rigorous customs inspections along its entire border (similar to what we would have with effective gun control implemented nationwide), this guy wouldn't have been able to get guns.

But when someone is truly evil, which I believe this cumwad was, there is very little you can do. We just can't mandate everyone have a conscience.

We can mandate strict gun control, which has a proven track record in other countries of virtually eliminating the incidence of mass murders.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 27, 2014, 06:23:11 pm
I was just told by my grandma that the shooter's mom is now blaming mental health professionals.

Edit:  Just saw this post:

(https://31.media.tumblr.com/5b7ab3591a29c3df6002ace2660dd09c/tumblr_n67s0opyHD1rpk8qao1_500.png)
Don't you know?
If a girl doesn't bone every guy she sees she's a shallow prude. Also, if she does have that much sex she's a dirty slut!
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: KZN02 on May 27, 2014, 07:00:12 pm
All I can say to the shooter is that you're in college to study and get a degree, not only to get a girlfriend. If you have to call yourself a "nice guy" and resort to these sorts of action, you're hardly a "nice guy" at all.

What gets me is that he hated his Asian roommates, when he himself was part Asian.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Damen on May 27, 2014, 07:04:25 pm
The number of guns this guy bought isn't a indicator of future violent action.

It's easy in hindsight to say he was a clear danger to others, but had I known before the fact that he had a deep-seated misanthropy, all those guns would have set off red flags in my head.

Perhaps you're right, but we can't restrict a person's rights based on the fact that they hold fucked up views.

I just don't think his parents were doing a good job of raising him and teaching him ethics and morals.

Yet another reason why we can't expect everyone in the country to be responsible with their guns. There has to be a system put in place to take guns away from irresponsible owners.

We have just such a system in place, but it requires them to show a reason to not have them, such as committing a crime or being adjudicated mentally incompetent. Until they show us a reason they can't be trusted with a firearm, we can't assume they're incapable of owning them. And even then, this wasn't a case of being an irresponsible owner; it was a case of a man wanting to commit mass murder. Talking about responsibility brings to mind gun safes, child locks, trigger discipline and safe handling. What should have happened is the second someone saw his video announcing his intentions for "retribution" the police should have been notified and then steps could have been taken. But even then it's doubtful they could have gotten to him in time.

And the last thing to keep in mind, this happened in California, which has some of the toughest gun laws in the nation.

That honestly isn't saying much. If California had gun laws similar to many European countries and the benefits of rigorous customs inspections along its entire border (similar to what we would have with effective gun control implemented nationwide), this guy wouldn't have been able to get guns.

But we don't have European style gun control and we are not going to have European style gun control as long as the Second Amendment stands and the likelihood of it going away is pretty much nil. We have to find a system that works within the confines of our laws or change the laws to find a system that does work. All the wishing that we were more like Europe isn't going to do shit.

But when someone is truly evil, which I believe this cumwad was, there is very little you can do. We just can't mandate everyone have a conscience.

We can mandate strict gun control, which has a proven track record in other countries of virtually eliminating the incidence of mass murders.

M (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings)m (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Gonzalez_%28spree_killer%29)h (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/9217315/Anders-Behring-Breiviks-Norway-shooting-spree-relived-in-chilling-detail.html)m (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Belgorod_shooting)m (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-26402367)m (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre).
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: KZN02 on May 27, 2014, 07:36:02 pm
Hoo boy, already people are saying the shootings were a hoax and that the shooter was a liberal or the like.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 27, 2014, 07:40:10 pm
Yeaaaaaaaah, 'Chew, I'm going to have to ask you to actually provide real proof of your assertion that European-style gun laws "virtually eliminating the incidence of mass murders."  By "virtually," I'm assuming that you mean "mostly," as in that the laws eliminate(d) a majority of mass murders in those countries.  None of that "correlation = causation" bullshit, either.

You're making a scientific assertion, so...back it up.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist on May 27, 2014, 08:03:09 pm
While you and I both seem to place a heap of blame on the parents

Unless either of you have evidence that his parents are to blame, it's rather irresponsible for you to toss around accusations and make assumptions about these people. I know someone whose son is serving a life sentence for murder, and she was never anything less than a wonderful parent to him and his sister (the latter of whom, one of my best friends since kindergarten, is a well-adjusted, contributing member of society and all around good person) -- yet she's had her life utterly destroyed because of people who thought they knew enough about the situation after reading a few newspaper articles to speculate about what an awful person she must be. The reality of the matter is that parents can't exert 100% control over their children's lives, not to mention that it's easy to sit in judgment of them when you have the benefit of hindsight.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Damen on May 27, 2014, 08:17:03 pm
While you and I both seem to place a heap of blame on the parents

Unless either of you have evidence that his parents are to blame, it's rather irresponsible for you to toss around accusations and make assumptions about these people. I know someone whose son is serving a life sentence for murder, and she was never anything less than a wonderful parent to him and his sister (the latter of whom, one of my best friends since kindergarten, is a well-adjusted, contributing member of society and all around good person) -- yet she's had her life utterly destroyed because of people who thought they knew enough about the situation after reading a few newspaper articles to speculate about what an awful person she must be. The reality of the matter is that parents can't exert 100% control over their children's lives, not to mention that it's easy to sit in judgment of them when you have the benefit of hindsight.

Perhaps you're right. But it's hard not to seek a rational (or at least comforting) explanation for such an evil act. Maybe this is one of those cases where everyone does everything right, and the fuckstain just turns out evil anyway.

My apologies if I have caused any offense.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Stormwarden on May 27, 2014, 09:56:30 pm
I'll honor that, Damen. I was thinking in terms of him buying them in a very short period of time. But you know what they say about Assumptions. I don't know enough yet about that end of the spectrum.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 27, 2014, 10:52:38 pm
I'm mainly for simple stuff like making all guns have to be locked and preferably kept in a safe. I'm also for background checks.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Witchyjoshy on May 27, 2014, 11:01:27 pm
I'm mainly for simple stuff like making all guns have to be locked and preferably kept in a safe. I'm also for background checks.

I agree.  Personally, I'm also for government-imbursed gun safes - because they're not cheap.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Damen on May 27, 2014, 11:41:05 pm
I'm in favor of the background checks we have now and I'd be in favor of "universal background checks" as long as you can maintain privacy and something is exchanged for it's passing, such as nation wide concealed carry reciprocity. I think that would be a fair compromise. And I'm actually in favor of the background check bill Coburn tried to put forward (good gods that makes me feel filthy) because it met the privacy concerns and eliminated the hassle of going to an FFL as well as eliminating the associated costs.

Personally, I'm also for government-imbursed gun safes - because they're not cheap.

Oh fuck yes, that's something I'd love to see.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: R. U. Sirius on May 27, 2014, 11:52:26 pm
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/27/joe-the-plumber-guns_n_5397981.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/27/joe-the-plumber-guns_n_5397981.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular)

For the record: Fuck gun-rights fanatics.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 27, 2014, 11:56:57 pm
I'm mainly for simple stuff like making all guns have to be locked and preferably kept in a safe. I'm also for background checks.

I agree.  Personally, I'm also for government-imbursed gun safes - because they're not cheap.
That's actually an even better idea.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: KZN02 on May 28, 2014, 12:00:49 am
Really, all I can say about people like the IV knifer/shooter/hit-and-runner is that if you have to call yourself a "nice guy" yet harbor these feelings of resentment towards women and take these sorts of actions, you are hardly a nice guy. You're not in college to score women, you're in college to learn and get a degree. I may not have gotten myself a girlfriend while I was at and graduated from UCSB, but it never was my concern. I made female friends in college, and I was fine enough just being friends and helping each other out over assignments and exams.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Damen on May 28, 2014, 12:37:20 am
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/27/joe-the-plumber-guns_n_5397981.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/27/joe-the-plumber-guns_n_5397981.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular)

For the record: Fuck gun-rights fanatics.

Fixed that for ya. ;D

Fanatics are assholes, regardless of the root of their fanaticism.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Søren on May 28, 2014, 12:39:25 am
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/27/joe-the-plumber-guns_n_5397981.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/27/joe-the-plumber-guns_n_5397981.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular)

For the record: Fuck gun-rights fanatics.

Wow...his phrasing, there is literally no way he could be more of a dick
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: MadCatTLX on May 28, 2014, 01:00:33 am
I'm mainly for simple stuff like making all guns have to be locked and preferably kept in a safe. I'm also for background checks.

I agree.  Personally, I'm also for government-imbursed gun safes - because they're not cheap.

Interestingly I Recently went with my dad to a store that specializes in gun safes. For now the guns are in an improvised safe that was formerly the metal crate supposedly was used to transport the nose end of a Tomahawk cruise missile. It's durable enough that it takes two guys to carry it when empty. We sold an old ATV we had to pay for the new safe.

The quality end of Chinese made safes starts at about $2,000. The bottom end of American made starts at about $3,000. Anything less than that might be a bit dodgy on quality. Anything under $1,000 is probably something I could easily break in to myself in a few minutes. The fire rating is important as well since we'll be storing personal and business documents in it, and that can make the safe even more expensive.

I'm really in favor of the government paying part of the price of a safe. I think it would go a long way in stopping problems, especially related to accidents involving young children.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 28, 2014, 01:26:19 am
How bout we just stick to gun locks n stuff.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: MadCatTLX on May 28, 2014, 01:36:37 am
How bout we just stick to gun locks n stuff.

You mean trigger locks and locks that go through the chamber? Do you know how fast I could get through one of those? Most can even be broken just pulling on them hard enough. They're a joke for any actual security. It might keep out a young child, but that's the most it could do.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Damen on May 28, 2014, 02:01:02 am
And besides which, those are already included with every new gun purchase and can often be found for free via the NSSF's Project Childsafe or your local police department.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Witchyjoshy on May 28, 2014, 02:01:37 am
I've gotten so sick of the whole "concealed carry would've stopped this" meme that I've decided to make a big preachy rant on it:

Quote
You’re in a crowded area.  You hear a gunshot behind you.

Luckily, you’re a concealed carry.  Living for this moment, you whip your gun out of its holster, whirl around, and turn off the safety.

There are 5 people with guns, all trained on each other.  Another concealed carry whips out his gun and trains it on you.

Who was the first person who fired a shot?  Who do you shoot?

Bang, you’re dead.  Your death starts a chain reaction where everyone shoots at each other.

Gunners miss each other.  They hit civilians.

If there was a single concealed carry on the scene, things might have been different.  But you had six people with hero complexes who aren’t psychic.  Any one of you could have been the mass shooter.

You know what we call a group of concealed carries who defend people?  Police.  You know why they wear a uniform?  So they know who not to shoot.

Remember, at every scene involving a shooting where concealed carries have been involved, they have either almost shot the person who wrestled the gun out of the shooter’s hands, or they HAVE shot them.

So next time you see someone say “If there was a concealed carry at the scene, this would have been averted,” you can reply, “it actually would’ve made the situation worse.”

By the way, I support the second amendment.  I just also support reason and intelligence.  If you have neither, you shouldn’t own a lethal weapon.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: KZN02 on May 28, 2014, 02:19:34 am
I've gotten so sick of the whole "concealed carry would've stopped this" meme that I've decided to make a big preachy rant on it:

Quote
You’re in a crowded area.  You hear a gunshot behind you.

Luckily, you’re a concealed carry.  Living for this moment, you whip your gun out of its holster, whirl around, and turn off the safety.

There are 5 people with guns, all trained on each other.  Another concealed carry whips out his gun and trains it on you.

Who was the first person who fired a shot?  Who do you shoot?

Bang, you’re dead.  Your death starts a chain reaction where everyone shoots at each other.

Gunners miss each other.  They hit civilians.

If there was a single concealed carry on the scene, things might have been different.  But you had six people with hero complexes who aren’t psychic.  Any one of you could have been the mass shooter.

You know what we call a group of concealed carries who defend people?  Police.  You know why they wear a uniform?  So they know who not to shoot.

Remember, at every scene involving a shooting where concealed carries have been involved, they have either almost shot the person who wrestled the gun out of the shooter’s hands, or they HAVE shot them.

So next time you see someone say “If there was a concealed carry at the scene, this would have been averted,” you can reply, “it actually would’ve made the situation worse.”

By the way, I support the second amendment.  I just also support reason and intelligence.  If you have neither, you shouldn’t own a lethal weapon.
On the subject of "every scene involving a shooting where concealed carries have been involved", are there news reports you can provide?
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: lord gibbon on May 28, 2014, 02:21:12 am
Well, I know at the Tucson shooting, the guy with a gun nearly shot another bystander. I mean, logically, such an adrenaline pumping and emotionally volatile event is not conductive to accuracy.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 28, 2014, 02:26:10 am
How bout we just stick to gun locks n stuff.

You mean trigger locks and locks that go through the chamber? Do you know how fast I could get through one of those? Most can even be broken just pulling on them hard enough. They're a joke for any actual security. It might keep out a young child, but that's the most it could do.
Damn, to bad the technology on how to make gun locks is controlled by the government and thus it is impossible to invent better ones.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: MadCatTLX on May 28, 2014, 02:54:40 am
Well, I know at the Tucson shooting, the guy with a gun nearly shot another bystander. I mean, logically, such an adrenaline pumping and emotionally volatile event is not conductive to accuracy.

To be fair, do you remember the news stories of how shitty the accuracy of the average cop is in a similar situation?

I remember one where two cops in New York(I think it was NY anyway) shot at a guy and hit him, but also hit like three people behind him. I have to question the wisdom of firing a gun on a busy city street, because at least in hindsight, that seems like a really stupid idea to begin with.

Keep in mind it's like threading a needle while a couple guys are swinging swords at you. And that's assuming your threading the right needle, as Magus said.

How bout we just stick to gun locks n stuff.

You mean trigger locks and locks that go through the chamber? Do you know how fast I could get through one of those? Most can even be broken just pulling on them hard enough. They're a joke for any actual security. It might keep out a young child, but that's the most it could do.
Damn, to bad the technology on how to make gun locks is controlled by the government and thus it is impossible to invent better ones.

I never said a better one couldn't be made, just that most, if not all, of the ones currently available aren't very good. The ones given away for free are naturally the cheapest locks available, but it's better than nothing. I just think a proper safe is a much more secure option.

One hard part about making a secure gun lock is that they're generally made to be universal. I could probably design a lock that fits securely in the chamber of a gun and can't easily be broken, but that comes at the price of it only working on that model of gun. A different lock would have to be made for all the common models out there, and that's not very easy or economically feasible.

Of course it would go a long way to just use quality materials and a lock tumbler style that's hard to pick. Unfortunately that isn't what gets used from what I see.

Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Damen on May 28, 2014, 03:04:19 am
Magus, I can understand your exasperation but this post was full of...wrong. Do I think this incidence would have been averted if a CCW holder was present? No; because this fuckstick was doing drive-bys. However, I would like to offer a rebuttal.

I've gotten so sick of the whole "concealed carry would've stopped this" meme that I've decided to make a big preachy rant on it:

You’re in a crowded area.  You hear a gunshot behind you.

Luckily, you’re a concealed carry.  Living for this moment,

First off, I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of CCW holders aren't "living for that moment" rather it's a moment they dread. CCW holders carry in case of a worst case scenario and their first thought isn't "Yay, I get to be a hero!" but rather it's "assess the situation."


you whip your gun out of its holster, whirl around, and turn off the safety.

There are 5 people with guns, all trained on each other.  Another concealed carry whips out his gun and trains it on you.

Who was the first person who fired a shot?  Who do you shoot?

Bang, you’re dead.  Your death starts a chain reaction where everyone shoots at each other.

Answer; no one until you can assess the situation. CCW holders have a frame of mind they get into that is called OODA (Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act) and would refer to this as a Condition Orange. Which means that until a clear and present threat is sighted, no bullets are going to fly.


Gunners miss each other.  They hit civilians.

Just like cops (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/empire-state-building-shooting-sparks-questions-about-nypd-shot-accuracy/).

If there was a single concealed carry on the scene, things might have been different.  But you had six people with hero complexes who aren’t psychic.  Any one of you could have been the mass shooter.

Why do you think a person who carries a firearm has a hero complex? I am planning on getting a CCW permit but I readily admit I am no hero; if bullets do start to fly my initial reaction is going to be to extract myself from the situation. My (soon to be) having a CCW permit doesn't mean I have a hero complex any more than the seat belt I wear means I want to drive a NASCAR or the fire extinguisher by my desk means I want to be a fireman. I wear my seatbelt in case I am in a wreck, I have a fire extinguisher in case something ignites. I want a CCW in case I am attacked.

You know what we call a group of concealed carries who defend people?  Police.  You know why they wear a uniform?  So they know who not to shoot.

Uniformed police don't carry concealed and they wear uniforms for a whole host of reasons, that of which is but one among many, not the sole reason.

Remember, at every scene involving a shooting where concealed carries have been involved, they have either almost shot the person who wrestled the gun out of the shooter’s hands, or they HAVE shot them.

[citation needed]

Tell you what, I won't just leave snark there because you don't deserve it. But (http://www.kxxv.com/story/24272587/police-investigating-attempted-robbery-in-marlin) I (http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/12/18/nh-man-pulls-gun-on-would-be-carjacker/) will (http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/24257799/armed-samaritan-helps-amid-robbery-in-northeast-minneapolis) provide (http://www.kcci.com/news/woman-pulls-handgun-on-wouldbe-robber/26132766) you (http://www.click2houston.com/news/man-fights-back-in-attempted-robbery-shoots-suspect-twice/26114890) with (http://www.toledoblade.com/Police-Fire/2014/05/19/Woman-shoots-bat-wielding-attacker-in-S-Toledo.html) links (http://www.foxcarolina.com/story/25373283/spartanburg-waffle-house-shooting-video-released-sparks-new-debate) to (http://kxan.com/2014/04/30/2-hurt-in-shooting-near-downtown/) stories (http://www.khou.com/news/crime/Armed-good-Samaritan-comes-to-the-aid-of-purse-snatching-victim-257091061.html) of (http://wivb.com/2014/04/15/pizza-deliveryman-opens-fire-to-fend-off-attackers/) CCW (http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Police-at-scene-of-officer-involved-shooting-near-on-South-Lamar-253898801.html) holders (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-cops-no-charges-for-man-with-concealed-carry-permit-who-fired-at-armed-male-20140405,0,2472485.story) defending (http://www.freep.com/article/20140325/NEWS04/303250094/Syringe-Roseville-Home-Depot-gun) themselves (http://www.wfaa.com/home/Chance-encounter-saves-Frisco-woman-from-robber-in-Dallas-252105571.html) against (http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/janitor-jailed-in-shooting-deaths-of-2-teens-during-beating-b99224501z1-250188151.html) an (http://abc7chicago.com/archive/9430380/) attack (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQgBDfqeITI) without (http://articles.mcall.com/2014-01-16/news/mc-c-east-allentown-teen-shot-to-death-20140116_1_east-allentown-witnesses-hanover-avenue) endangering (http://www.wect.com/story/24474261/dallas-co-authorities-on-scene-of-homicide-in-orrville) innocents (http://articles.philly.com/2014-01-14/news/46153194_1_robbery-victim-chester-bar-dead-man).

So next time you see someone say “If there was a concealed carry at the scene, this would have been averted,” you can reply, “it actually would’ve made the situation worse.”

Actually, we can't say either way. I am of the opinion that it would have made little to no difference either way because, as I said before, this fuck was in his car and doing drive-bys.

By the way, I support the second amendment.  I just also support reason and intelligence.  If you have neither, you shouldn’t own a lethal weapon.

There's a saying going around the gun-rights circles that leaps to mind here, I think it's somewhat akin to what you're saying in your last sentence: "If you can't be trusted with a firearm you can't be trusted without a guardian."

I would also recommend reading this article (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x307236) as it sums up CCW holders quite nicely and might help clear up some misconceptions you might have about them.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Witchyjoshy on May 28, 2014, 03:46:21 am
Damen, I like you, but my post was addressed at the vast multitude of people who like to claim that if they were there, the incident wouldn't have happened.  Basically, people with actual hero complexes.  They exist out there. 
Also, have you SEEN how some gun nuts talk?  They practically DROOL over the chance to use their gun in public.

If you don't have a hero complex, and if you aren't drooling over the chance to use a gun, good job, I'm not complaining about you.

Now don't take things personally when they aren't aimed at you.

As far as your citation needed, that's already been provided by someone else in this thread.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Damen on May 28, 2014, 04:28:58 am
Make no mistake, I take no offense however try to understand where I'm coming from. I'm a to-the-core progressive liberal and I tend to frequent progressive websites but I am also a staunch 2nd Amendment supporter so I also frequent pro-2nd Amendment websites which is a very conservative subject. As such, I am exposed to both points of view on a very regular basis. So yes, I have seen those types of people. But those are the people who are looked down upon in that particular community and are largely a minority. I count myself among the few who, while I would carry a firearm, I would dread the day I'd have to use it.

The only reason I made that rebuttal was because your points were (appearing to be) making broad assumptions about CCW holders based on the reputations of the minority and other bits of misinformation. As such, the arguments you try to present will be dismissed out of hand but I wasn't trying to do that. If I was, then I wouldn't bother giving you news articles regarding CCW holders and defensive gun uses. Your initial post did make it sound like you were taking a broad shot at CCW holders as a whole rather than those with their heads lodged firmly up their asses and my post was made in large part on that basis. But try to look at my post and treat it as a learning aid? Your message will come across more effectively if you don't put your target audience on the defensive as would happen with the preachy rant. The end result would only be you preaching to the choir.

I'm not trying to be mean here and I apologize if I sound that way.

As for the [citation needed] that you say has already been provided, I haven't found it. Could you provide a link?
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist on May 28, 2014, 09:49:45 am
Perhaps you're right. But it's hard not to seek a rational (or at least comforting) explanation for such an evil act. Maybe this is one of those cases where everyone does everything right, and the fuckstain just turns out evil anyway.

My apologies if I have caused any offense.

No worries. It's only natural to want something concrete to point at as a cause when faced with something horrific, and the way a person was raised is generally the first place you're going to look for an explanation.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Random Gal on May 28, 2014, 10:06:22 am
Would it be appropriate to consider this guy an MRA terrorist?
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 28, 2014, 10:49:11 am

How bout we just stick to gun locks n stuff.

You mean trigger locks and locks that go through the chamber? Do you know how fast I could get through one of those? Most can even be broken just pulling on them hard enough. They're a joke for any actual security. It might keep out a young child, but that's the most it could do.
Damn, to bad the technology on how to make gun locks is controlled by the government and thus it is impossible to invent better ones.

I never said a better one couldn't be made, just that most, if not all, of the ones currently available aren't very good. The ones given away for free are naturally the cheapest locks available, but it's better than nothing. I just think a proper safe is a much more secure option.

One hard part about making a secure gun lock is that they're generally made to be universal. I could probably design a lock that fits securely in the chamber of a gun and can't easily be broken, but that comes at the price of it only working on that model of gun. A different lock would have to be made for all the common models out there, and that's not very easy or economically feasible.

Of course it would go a long way to just use quality materials and a lock tumbler style that's hard to pick. Unfortunately that isn't what gets used from what I see.
It would help prevent a lot of suicides by teens trying to get into their parents guns.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 28, 2014, 12:06:01 pm
Would it be appropriate to consider this guy an MRA terrorist?

...As sad as it is, that sounds very accurate.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 28, 2014, 01:31:11 pm
Imagine what would have happened if this guy had been a Muslim who did this.
The asshats at Fox would be calling for hijabs to carry the death penalty. The police would be given millions in defense grants.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: davedan on May 28, 2014, 06:55:19 pm
As for the gun control debate - here is an article from Mother Jones:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/pro-gun-myths-fact-check (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/pro-gun-myths-fact-check)

Anyway you crackers all know how I feel about guns.

As for this guy the whole thing is really sad, however I wish the media would stop saying he was rejected by women. As that feeds into this whole if only some girl had given him a blowjob we wouldn't be here - selfish bitches bullshit. He never actually approached any women to get rejected. Truly one the most pathetic cowards of our times.

Reminds me of the joke about the Rabbi who prays to God to win the Lotto, he keeps praying and eventual God calls down to him "Help me out Rabbi, at least buy a ticket"
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: KZN02 on May 28, 2014, 07:15:34 pm
So I was looking for comments the guy made by his YouTube channel only to come up empty. However, I stumbled upon his alternate channel which had some interesting comments.

Quote
Guys who call other guys who have wealth and style "gay", are jealous.

Quote
What the hell?? The women in London are BITCHES. Horrible, horrible bitches. He has a Maserati and they barely even look at him. I'm getting myself a Maserati soon, and I'm hoping the girls in California where I live won't be like this. They better notice me and flock to me or I will be really angry.

That quote got an ironic response from someone else:
Quote
i agree they are. Cali girls are way better. Ur so lucky ur getting this sexy beast

Anyways, back to his comments"

Quote
Shut the hell up you ugly jealous little retard. Men who are half white half asian are the most beautiful. We are the new master race, above both whites and asians. You are just JEALOUS. Crawl back into your hole, you pathetic worm.

Quote
Shut up you ugly Indian piece of shit. What would you know about fucking anyway? No one would go for you. People who are "fucking" at such a young age end up being poor losers later in life, and will end up serving those who concentrated on achievement.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: RavynousHunter on May 28, 2014, 07:41:09 pm
The Master Race.  Excuse me, I need a moment...

*the sounds of hysterical laughter can be heard from 3 states away*
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: ironbite on May 28, 2014, 07:47:23 pm
You scared my cat.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: KZN02 on May 28, 2014, 07:51:47 pm
He also made a reply to a comment on a video about the Aurora shootings (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2egwLbDTt5E):

Someone else: creating a environment that keeps insane people from being horrible assholes isn't realistic.

Him: You're a bigoted lunatic.

That's probably the most ironic comment of the year.

Also made a comment about Cho Seung-Hui of the Virginia Tech shooting:

Quote
People need to stop bullying, but not only that. People also need to start accepting everyone. People need to befriend those lonely shy individuals instead of shun them, to make them feel like they belong. Social classes are evil, and lead to tragedies such as this. Humanity needs to unite as equals.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on May 28, 2014, 07:55:31 pm
So not only was he entitled, sexist, and racist, but he also had the self awareness of a peanut.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: KZN02 on May 28, 2014, 08:23:42 pm
I stumbled upon his first comment made with the alternate account, which was a response to a comment in a Columbine Shooting tribute video, which was him calling a commenter a lunatic for believing in God. Unfortunately, the video itself has comments disabled so I don't know what the comment was, but no doubt once right wingers find out about this ... And there was his like of a video about human evolution on his main account.

Also, right wingers are pointing out the guy was subscribed to The Young Turks, and checking his main account confirms it. I couldn't pinpoint when he did so, but I would guess from the videos he posted it was 1 to 3 months ago.

He was subscribed to a couple other channels, like RoosterTeeth's LetsPlay, World of Warcraft, TobyTurner, Pokemon, and Game of Thrones. The gaming ones are going to be problematic since World of Warcraft has already appeared in the blame game. The Game of Thrones subscription was rather interesting seeing one of his comments on a Game of Thrones video was spoilers that enraged a lot of people.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on May 28, 2014, 08:35:56 pm
I don't care if he was liberal, conservative, or whatever.  I just care that he was a horrible excuse for a man.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: TheUnknown on May 28, 2014, 09:33:59 pm
Quote
He was subscribed to a couple other channels, like RoosterTeeth's LetsPlay, World of Warcraft, TobyTurner, Pokemon, and Game of Thrones. The gaming ones are going to be problematic since World of Warcraft has already appeared in the blame game. The Game of Thrones subscription was rather interesting seeing one of his comments on a Game of Thrones video was spoilers that enraged a lot of people.

Oh god, I wonder if he made any comments about the "Connect the Hots" debacle.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: KZN02 on May 28, 2014, 10:33:22 pm
Quote
He was subscribed to a couple other channels, like RoosterTeeth's LetsPlay, World of Warcraft, TobyTurner, Pokemon, and Game of Thrones. The gaming ones are going to be problematic since World of Warcraft has already appeared in the blame game. The Game of Thrones subscription was rather interesting seeing one of his comments on a Game of Thrones video was spoilers that enraged a lot of people.

Oh god, I wonder if he made any comments about the "Connect the Hots" debacle.
His subscribing to LetsPlay was rather recent, and I didn't see any notable comments, if any, on that channel.

Also, what is this "Connect the Hots" debacle?
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: TheUnknown on May 28, 2014, 11:26:28 pm
Quote
He was subscribed to a couple other channels, like RoosterTeeth's LetsPlay, World of Warcraft, TobyTurner, Pokemon, and Game of Thrones. The gaming ones are going to be problematic since World of Warcraft has already appeared in the blame game. The Game of Thrones subscription was rather interesting seeing one of his comments on a Game of Thrones video was spoilers that enraged a lot of people.

Oh god, I wonder if he made any comments about the "Connect the Hots" debacle.
His subscribing to LetsPlay was rather recent, and I didn't see any notable comments, if any, on that channel.

Also, what is this "Connect the Hots" debacle?

I didn't witness it myself, but from I gathered, several months ago a couple of RT employees admitted to playing a game called "Connect the Hots".  It was a game where their route to work would be decided on the hot girls they could find.  When they found a hot girl, they would follow her until they found another one.  They actually uploaded a video of themselves playing the game, and allegedly during the video, they actually roll down their window to call out to a woman, whom they didn't know mind you, to let her know they were following her.  It caused a huge backdraft amongst the viewership, the video was taken down, and RT was made by their boss (Machinima, I think) to issue a public apology.  And from what I heard, several of their coworkers, including a female one, couldn't see anything wrong with what they were doing when the game was first revealed.  I heard only one spoke up about finding it disgusting.

That's what I remember reading about it, anyway.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: KZN02 on May 28, 2014, 11:43:33 pm
Quote
He was subscribed to a couple other channels, like RoosterTeeth's LetsPlay, World of Warcraft, TobyTurner, Pokemon, and Game of Thrones. The gaming ones are going to be problematic since World of Warcraft has already appeared in the blame game. The Game of Thrones subscription was rather interesting seeing one of his comments on a Game of Thrones video was spoilers that enraged a lot of people.

Oh god, I wonder if he made any comments about the "Connect the Hots" debacle.
His subscribing to LetsPlay was rather recent, and I didn't see any notable comments, if any, on that channel.

Also, what is this "Connect the Hots" debacle?

I didn't witness it myself, but from I gathered, several months ago a couple of RT employees admitted to playing a game called "Connect the Hots".  It was a game where their route to work would be decided on the hot girls they could find.  When they found a hot girl, they would follow her until they found another one.  They actually uploaded a video of themselves playing the game, and allegedly during the video, they actually roll down their window to call out to a woman, whom they didn't know mind you, to let her know they were following her.  It caused a huge backdraft amongst the viewership, the video was taken down, and RT was made by their boss (Machinima, I think) to issue a public apology.  And from what I heard, several of their coworkers, including a female one, couldn't see anything wrong with what they were doing when the game was first revealed.  I heard only one spoke up about finding it disgusting.

That's what I remember reading about it, anyway.
When was this? I didn't see the shooter have a subscription to Rooster Teeth directly, only the LetsPlay channel one that he probably subscribed to 1 to 3 months ago.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: TheUnknown on May 29, 2014, 12:04:40 am
Quote
He was subscribed to a couple other channels, like RoosterTeeth's LetsPlay, World of Warcraft, TobyTurner, Pokemon, and Game of Thrones. The gaming ones are going to be problematic since World of Warcraft has already appeared in the blame game. The Game of Thrones subscription was rather interesting seeing one of his comments on a Game of Thrones video was spoilers that enraged a lot of people.

Oh god, I wonder if he made any comments about the "Connect the Hots" debacle.
His subscribing to LetsPlay was rather recent, and I didn't see any notable comments, if any, on that channel.

Also, what is this "Connect the Hots" debacle?

I didn't witness it myself, but from I gathered, several months ago a couple of RT employees admitted to playing a game called "Connect the Hots".  It was a game where their route to work would be decided on the hot girls they could find.  When they found a hot girl, they would follow her until they found another one.  They actually uploaded a video of themselves playing the game, and allegedly during the video, they actually roll down their window to call out to a woman, whom they didn't know mind you, to let her know they were following her.  It caused a huge backdraft amongst the viewership, the video was taken down, and RT was made by their boss (Machinima, I think) to issue a public apology.  And from what I heard, several of their coworkers, including a female one, couldn't see anything wrong with what they were doing when the game was first revealed.  I heard only one spoke up about finding it disgusting.

That's what I remember reading about it, anyway.
When was this? I didn't see the shooter have a subscription to Rooster Teeth directly, only the LetsPlay channel one that he probably subscribed to 1 to 3 months ago.

Almost certain it was longer than three months, so he probably wasn't a subscriber when it happened.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on May 29, 2014, 09:41:20 am
You know who and what he reminded me of when he was ranting about how he's better than most guys and with the fact that he killed some girls for refusing to sleep with him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqGL9B_TPTI
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Kat S. on May 29, 2014, 08:06:56 pm
I've bit my lip over this letting everyone else have their say while I watched and read, but I can't stand it much longer.  So here I go...

Every time a mass shooting like this occurs, we(the U.S.) go through the same thing of:
Part 1. Shock, horror, disgust, and genuine surprise in spite of prior events.
Part 2. Wall to wall coverage(if it's that bad) with ample speculation from the media as to how and why it happened.
Part 3. Knee jerk reaction of two extreme polar ends shouting the loudest for the public to follow their suggestions to fully prevent future tragedies while the more moderate and rational voices get drowned out and ignored.
Part 4. Congress does some kind of action to show the public that it's "doing something" mainly to pacify the public.
Part 5. The public doesn't follow up with congress to hold them accountable to what they say, and eventually puts the entire incident behind them until another shooting occurs going back to Part 1.

I was on the We Hunted the Mammoth (http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/)(formerly ManBoobz) website when I read the "Retribution" video transcript.  What I immediately saw was a lot of MRA/PUA/manosphere vocabulary in his rant.  When I learned more about the shooter and read his biography and plans which he calls his "manifesto", I saw more of how this became, for a lack of a better term, a "perfect storm" for a rampage to occur.

In my opinion, this was an extremely narcissistic and self centered individual who had grown up in a want for nothing lifestyle.  He was classist, elitist, sexist, and inexplicably racist.  He believed he should get anything he wanted since, only obvious to him, he was a very sophisticated, elite, and all around awesome guy.  He stated moving to Isla Vista to get blond girls because of what he saw in the media, but at that time he already had some very maladaptive behaviors such as extreme jealousy and anger.  He was known to have dumped drinks on couples, pushed a couple over a ledge, display anger when his roommates talked about their own romantic encounters, and kept proceeding to rant on video or forum chat whenever he saw blond white women in the company of minority men.  Meanwhile, he became increasing preoccupied with his loneliness and inability to get himself a girlfriend for sex, so he began looking at PUA sites and other manosphere "literature" about being an "Alpha male".  When getting a car and dressing nice didn't attract women to him in droves, he became increasingly bitter and angry over it and even turned against the PUA community.  Reports out there state he never actually approached a woman romantically, but those reports cannot be confirmed.  After the shooting, a family spokesperson came out to state that he had a history of having Asperger's syndrome as well as being seen by four different therapists, but was being non-compliant with his medication.  They even called the Sheriff's office to perform a welfare check when they saw his videos.

So to conclude in the shortest way possible:
1.) He grew up in a lifestyle in which he did not learn the value of earning things and that the world doesn't owe you anything just because you think you're awesome.
2.) Asperger's syndrome may explain why he may have had some trouble connecting with people, but only some.  As others have posted, having Asperger's syndrome or any other learning or behavioral disorder doesn't make a person violent, maladaptive, and/or dysfunctional.  That still comes from the individual the vast majority of the time.
3.) Nobody nipped in the bud his growing level or narcissism, classism, elitism, sexism, and racism.  When his narcissism grew to peak levels, by that time he couldn't be helped since he didn't see anything wrong with himself.
4.) The Men's Rights Movement can try to side step this all they want, but more and more people are beginning to truly see what their movement is really about.  Just as the white supremacy movement was tied as partly responsible when Frazer Miller, James von Brunn, and others shoot up Jewish centers or the Holocaust museum, the Men's Rights movement shouldn't be let off the hook from this.

Thanks for reading.  I knew that was long.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: KZN02 on May 29, 2014, 08:28:31 pm
cism.  When his narcissism grew to peak levels, by that time he couldn't be helped since he didn't see anything wrong with himself.
4.) The Men's Rights Movement can try to side step this all they want, but more and more people are beginning to truly see what their movement is really about.  Just as the white supremacy movement was tied as partly responsible when Frazer Miller, James von Brunn, and others shoot up Jewish centers or the Holocaust museum, the Men's Rights movement shouldn't be let off the hook from this.
Hoo boy, I stumbled around a guy saying MRM had nothing to do with the shooter, saying he was with Pick Up Artist and later anti-Pick Up Artist related channels and websites. Then I went around and found a guy blaming feminism for the shooting and saying the shooter himself was a feminist.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: dpareja on May 29, 2014, 08:59:38 pm
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/richard-martinez-blasts-politicians-nra-for-failing-to-stop-mass-shootings-1.2658951

The dad of one of the people who was killed:

Quote
"I don’t care that you’re sorry. Do something."

Martinez’s only son, 20-year-old Christopher Michaels-Martinez, was one of six people slain last Friday when Elliot Rodger went on a killing spree in the California community of Isla Vista before shooting himself.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: mythbuster43 on June 02, 2014, 01:40:36 am
Fuck Vox Day. (http://voxday.blogspot.ca/2014/05/the-source-of-misogyny.html)

The comments are even worse. These people are rotten to the core.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: mythbuster43 on June 02, 2014, 01:57:02 am
I think Adam Buckley says it best about the whole thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxe1Sdc-pJE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxe1Sdc-pJE)
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: chitoryu12 on June 02, 2014, 10:49:36 am
I've taken a close look at how everything progressed with Rodger. Regardless of what you think of current gun laws, the problem is very clearly the utter lack of trying to handle his problems.

This wasn't a case of someone with a "hidden disease" flying under the radar and being able to go out and buy "assault weapons" because his mental illness was undiagnosed. He had a long history of years of violence and lack of stability. The police were actually called to his apartment by his parents after they found his YouTube videos and realized how nutty he was, but the cops decided that he wasn't crazy enough for an involuntary hold or a search of his home and just left. He was able to purchase several handguns, all legally and all legal under California's continuance of the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, despite having a massive history of mental illness and violent behavior. He also used his car and a knife to cause almost as many casualties.

California's famously restrictive firearm laws did absolutely nothing, because everyone looked at a youth who was a documented violent lunatic and just kinda shrugged.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on June 02, 2014, 03:37:26 pm
Okay, first off, mental illness isn't a factor here. Yeah, it might of played some small roll, but he was autistic, not a schizophrenic with a history of psychotic episodes.

I will agree 120% that's bullshit that the police didn't immediately confiscate his firearms the moment he released the video (and let's be honest here, the only reason they didn't was because he was an upper class white guy, a homeless man or Muslim saying that shit would have been thrown in solitary before he finished filming).   
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Ironchew on June 02, 2014, 08:08:48 pm
Regardless of what you think of current gun laws, the problem is very clearly the utter lack of trying to handle his problems.

The problem was that he had the means to murder multiple people in a very short amount of time, courtesy of firearms. You can ignore the elephant in the room all you want, but these victims most likely wouldn't have died had we taken an effective nationwide approach to gun control.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Art Vandelay on June 02, 2014, 08:14:17 pm
Regardless of what you think of current gun laws, the problem is very clearly the utter lack of trying to handle his problems.

The problem was that he had the means to murder multiple people in a very short amount of time, courtesy of firearms. You can ignore the elephant in the room all you want, but these victims most likely wouldn't have died had we taken an effective nationwide approach to gun control.

I have to agree with Ironchew, here. It's probably not a coincidence that America has by far the easiest access to guns of any 1st world nation, and is also the only one to have a school shooting on an almost monthly basis. Just sayin'.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on June 02, 2014, 08:28:53 pm
Regardless of what you think of current gun laws, the problem is very clearly the utter lack of trying to handle his problems.

The problem was that he had the means to murder multiple people in a very short amount of time, courtesy of firearms. You can ignore the elephant in the room all you want, but these victims most likely wouldn't have died had we taken an effective nationwide approach to gun control.

I have to agree with Ironchew, here. It's probably not a coincidence that America has by far the easiest access to guns of any 1st world nation, and is also the only one to have a school shooting on an almost monthly basis. Just sayin'.
Just about everybody in Switzerland has a gun, and how many mass shootings take place there?
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on June 02, 2014, 08:55:36 pm
Regardless of what you think of current gun laws, the problem is very clearly the utter lack of trying to handle his problems.

The problem was that he had the means to murder multiple people in a very short amount of time, courtesy of firearms. You can ignore the elephant in the room all you want, but these victims most likely wouldn't have died had we taken an effective nationwide approach to gun control.

I have to agree with Ironchew, here. It's probably not a coincidence that America has by far the easiest access to guns of any 1st world nation, and is also the only one to have a school shooting on an almost monthly basis. Just sayin'.
Just about everybody in Switzerland has a gun, and how many mass shootings take place there?

Everyone there is also required to join the military.

Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on June 02, 2014, 08:57:49 pm
Regardless of what you think of current gun laws, the problem is very clearly the utter lack of trying to handle his problems.

The problem was that he had the means to murder multiple people in a very short amount of time, courtesy of firearms. You can ignore the elephant in the room all you want, but these victims most likely wouldn't have died had we taken an effective nationwide approach to gun control.

I have to agree with Ironchew, here. It's probably not a coincidence that America has by far the easiest access to guns of any 1st world nation, and is also the only one to have a school shooting on an almost monthly basis. Just sayin'.
Just about everybody in Switzerland has a gun, and how many mass shootings take place there?

Everyone there is also required to join the military.
And?  Military experience doesn't automatically make you a better person.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on June 02, 2014, 09:05:19 pm

Also, http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/specials/switzerland_for_the_record/european_records/Switzerland_s_troubling_record_of_suicide.html?cid=8301804 (http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/specials/switzerland_for_the_record/european_records/Switzerland_s_troubling_record_of_suicide.html?cid=8301804)
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Art Vandelay on June 02, 2014, 09:15:06 pm
And?  Military experience doesn't automatically make you a better person.
The point is that those guns are in fact the property of the Swiss Army, not the individual it's issued to. You have to go through actual training and health screenings (physical and mental) before you get one, it has to be returned to the military when you're no longer able to serve for whatever reason, and of course that gun is not for your personal use. It's to be securely locked up in your house (i.e. nowhere your deranged virgin of a son can get it) until you're basically drafted and sent to defend the country. Best of all, should a gun that's issued to you ever be used in any sort of criminal activity, much less a school shooting, there are rather dire consequences for the owner.

Basically, while gun possession (not ownership) in Switzerland is high, it's also very heavily regulated. Very different from the situation in America.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on June 02, 2014, 09:17:50 pm
And?  Military experience doesn't automatically make you a better person.
The point is that those guns are in fact the property of the Swiss Army, not the individual it's issued to. You have to go through actual training and health screenings (physical and mental) before you get one, it has to be returned to the military when you're no longer able to serve for whatever reason, and of course that gun is not for your personal use. It's to be securely locked up in your house (i.e. nowhere your deranged virgin of a son can get it) until you're basically drafted and sent to defend the country. Best of all, should a gun that's issued to you ever be used in any sort of criminal activity, much less a school shooting, there are rather dire consequences for the owner.

Basically, while gun possession (not ownership) in Switzerland is high, it's also very heavily regulated. Very different from the situation in America.
Thank you my eyeball bathtub FREIND.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Ultimate Paragon on June 02, 2014, 09:20:11 pm
I agree, there ought to be some more regulations on gun ownership.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on June 02, 2014, 09:21:35 pm
I agree, there ought to be some more regulations on gun ownership.
...
...
...
Hol-eee shit, we actually have reached mutual agreement on something.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: chitoryu12 on June 02, 2014, 09:26:32 pm
Regardless of what you think of current gun laws, the problem is very clearly the utter lack of trying to handle his problems.

The problem was that he had the means to murder multiple people in a very short amount of time, courtesy of firearms. You can ignore the elephant in the room all you want, but these victims most likely wouldn't have died had we taken an effective nationwide approach to gun control.

He also caused almost the exact same amount of casualties with a knife and car, and he was in a state that has notoriously restrictive firearm laws that many politicians want to apply across the board. Laws that did absolutely nothing to prevent him from acquiring them, as nobody had ever once recorded that he was dangerously mentally ill with a documented history of violence against others, especially women. He had the patience to go through every legal channel to acquire them, and came from a wealthy family that gave him the resources to drop over a thousand dollars on three pistols.

Quote
Okay, first off, mental illness isn't a factor here. Yeah, it might of played some small roll, but he was autistic, not a schizophrenic with a history of psychotic episodes.

Small role? Let me give a list of his documented behavior:

* Tried to shove girls over a ledge at a party, failed, and got beaten up and kicked out by the guys there.

* Stalked and threw coffee on four people at a bus stop for not paying attention to him.

* Assaulted a group playing kickball.

These are only the documented instances recorded on an easily accessible place online; I wouldn't be surprised if he had even more behavior like this going years back. He was prescribed Risperidone, an antipsychotic, and refused to take it. He was violently crazy enough that his parents even informed the police, and they simply gave the kid a once-over and left because he told them it was a "misunderstanding" while he had the guns in his room and was preparing a killing spree.

Quote
Also, http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/specials/switzerland_for_the_record/european_records/Switzerland_s_troubling_record_of_suicide.html?cid=8301804

Switzerland is also #44 on the list for most suicides (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate), with the United States at #33. Japan is #10 on the list despite an almost total firearms ownership ban, while China (which has even more restrictive firearm laws, albeit highly corrupt) is #6. In fact, almost every country with more suicides than Switzerland and the United States has more restrictive firearm laws. At the same time, almost every country with less suicides has more restrictions. Funny enough, Pakistan is one of the lowest places on the list.

Suicide rates are affected by so many different variables that accusing guns of being a major aspect is plain ridiculous.

Quote
The point is that those guns are in fact the property of the Swiss Army, not the individual it's issued to. You have to go through actual training and health screenings (physical and mental) before you get one, it has to be returned to the military when you're no longer able to serve for whatever reason, and of course that gun is not for your personal use. It's to be securely locked up in your house (i.e. nowhere your deranged virgin of a son can get it) until you're basically drafted and sent to defend the country. Best of all, should a gun that's issued to you ever be used in any sort of criminal activity, much less a school shooting, there are rather dire consequences for the owner.

You're missing a ton of details that go against your idea of Swiss gun ownership. Firearms are fully legal to purchase, and in fact you don't even need a license to buy a gun from a private individual. And anyone with the appropriate license can choose to keep their personal weapon and other equipment items after they finish their military service.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on June 02, 2014, 10:26:32 pm
Quote
Small role? Let me give a list of his documented behavior:
* Tried to shove girls over a ledge at a party, failed, and got beaten up and kicked out by the guys there.
* Stalked and threw coffee on four people at a bus stop for not paying attention to him.
* Assaulted a group playing kickball
Um, what?
Like, I never denied he was violent, I was just saying it wasn't because he was autistic.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: chitoryu12 on June 02, 2014, 11:05:20 pm
Quote
Small role? Let me give a list of his documented behavior:
* Tried to shove girls over a ledge at a party, failed, and got beaten up and kicked out by the guys there.
* Stalked and threw coffee on four people at a bus stop for not paying attention to him.
* Assaulted a group playing kickball
Um, what?
Like, I never denied he was violent, I was just saying it wasn't because he was autistic.

Wait, where the hell are you getting me ever talking about the dude's autism? What I said was that he had obvious signs of being mentally ill, potentially to a dangerous degree, and had engaged in violent behavior toward others multiple times in the past, but his condition wasn't taken seriously enough to even begin to prevent him from doing anything and even a police call was simply brushed off.

My point is that we already DO have laws in place to try and prevent people who are violently crazy from getting their hands on weapons, but it doesn't do shit if every major warning sign is ignored.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on June 02, 2014, 11:30:07 pm
Quote
Small role? Let me give a list of his documented behavior:
* Tried to shove girls over a ledge at a party, failed, and got beaten up and kicked out by the guys there.
* Stalked and threw coffee on four people at a bus stop for not paying attention to him.
* Assaulted a group playing kickball
Um, what?
Like, I never denied he was violent, I was just saying it wasn't because he was autistic.

Wait, where the hell are you getting me ever talking about the dude's autism? What I said was that he had obvious signs of being mentally ill, potentially to a dangerous degree, and had engaged in violent behavior toward others multiple times in the past, but his condition wasn't taken seriously enough to even begin to prevent him from doing anything and even a police call was simply brushed off.

My point is that we already DO have laws in place to try and prevent people who are violently crazy from getting their hands on weapons, but it doesn't do shit if every major warning sign is ignored.
Well you keeped mentioning "mental illness" so I thought you meant his autism.
You're more saying he was just straight up violent and shouldn't have been allowed anywhere near guns.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: chitoryu12 on June 02, 2014, 11:37:32 pm
Quote
Small role? Let me give a list of his documented behavior:
* Tried to shove girls over a ledge at a party, failed, and got beaten up and kicked out by the guys there.
* Stalked and threw coffee on four people at a bus stop for not paying attention to him.
* Assaulted a group playing kickball
Um, what?
Like, I never denied he was violent, I was just saying it wasn't because he was autistic.

Wait, where the hell are you getting me ever talking about the dude's autism? What I said was that he had obvious signs of being mentally ill, potentially to a dangerous degree, and had engaged in violent behavior toward others multiple times in the past, but his condition wasn't taken seriously enough to even begin to prevent him from doing anything and even a police call was simply brushed off.

My point is that we already DO have laws in place to try and prevent people who are violently crazy from getting their hands on weapons, but it doesn't do shit if every major warning sign is ignored.
Well you keeped mentioning "mental illness" so I thought you meant his autism.
You're more saying he was just straight up violent and shouldn't have been allowed anywhere near guns.

Exactly. There were plenty of signs, including his refusal to take prescribed antipsychotic medication and several instances of violent behavior toward others (at least one of which resulted in an actual police report being filed, though they mostly just quietly let it drop).

A lot of his behavior probably ended up being allowed to slide because he was the son of a wealthy family (it's mentioned in his manifesto that he returned to the party where he attacked some girls because he forgot his Gucci sunglasses).
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: RavynousHunter on June 03, 2014, 09:24:32 am
You know what kicks me right square in the nuts?  That people group "mass murders" together as if they were all one unified thing with a single origin and single set of circumstances causing them.  Ya wanna know what this was a case of?  Incompetence, on many levels and from many people, including the killer himself.  People dropped the ball, likely because he was a well-to-do white kid and we all know that the ones that go on violent mass killings are scary poor people and minorities.  He didn't have a record because he was, again, a well-to-do white guy, and you don't punish the good little boys for getting a little angry.  Besides, as was pointed out before, a gun was only one of his weapons, and YET, no one is giving the fucking car the stink eye or saying we need tighter knife regulations.

Its horrible, but some people, you just can't fucking stop from going on a rampage.  If you take the gun, they'll just use something else.  Maybe he wouldn't have killed as many people, maybe not.  Its like when the shooting in Jonesboro, AR happened.  Everyone was all over enacting new laws to restrict weapons, as if that'd have stopped them.  Mitchell Johnson and Andrew Golden stole their weapons from Golden's grandfather, along with their ammo.  We already have laws against theft, but that didn't stop them.

Determined criminals will break the god damned law.  Determined murderers will kill people with or without firearms.  Do they make it easier?  Sure, but a knife makes it easier to kill someone when compared to beating them with your bare fists, too.  This motherfucker was god damned insane, not having a gun wouldn't have stopped him and I highly doubt it'll deter any others of his ilk.  America's got a lot of people, and a history of looking the other way when Mighty Whitey is around.

The police looked, but they did not see.  Because they didn't want to see.  They didn't do anything because he was an affluent white kid, and no affluent white kids have ever been problem children.  The problem is not one of regulation, but one of enforcement.  Incompetence fucks over everyone...and sometimes, incompetence kills.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: chitoryu12 on June 03, 2014, 10:38:02 am
Quote
Besides, as was pointed out before, a gun was only one of his weapons, and YET, no one is giving the fucking car the stink eye or saying we need tighter knife regulations.

I know that gun control advocates tend to hate when you make comparisons to things like cars. One of the most common pro-gun arguments is to bring up how many people are killed in car accidents compared to firearm deaths; one of the most common rebuttals is to say that cars are actually important to living in the modern world and aren't designed as weapons, so they don't deserve that level of regulation.

But there's a pretty damn good point in bringing it up.. 2012 had 34,080 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year) deaths by vehicle accident alone. In 2010, literally thousands of people were dying every month.

But does anyone bat an eye at it?

Car crashes tend to just float by everyone's mind. When Memorial Day weekend hits and a few dozen people get killed on the interstate while driving to the beach, it doesn't make headlines. Not one gun control advocate talks about how cars need tighter regulations when there's probably just as many deaths as Sandy Hook happening each weekend in this country, all caused by motor vehicles. The constant stream of death is totally ignored. Do you just take it as an annual bloodletting of sorts?
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on June 03, 2014, 10:44:35 am
Regulations don't work, what's the point?
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Ironchew on June 03, 2014, 12:23:28 pm
Regulations don't work, what's the point?

This message brought to you by the Libertarian Party. Fuck you, I've got mine, etc.

Quote
Besides, as was pointed out before, a gun was only one of his weapons, and YET, no one is giving the fucking car the stink eye or saying we need tighter knife regulations.

I know that gun control advocates tend to hate when you make comparisons to things like cars. One of the most common pro-gun arguments is to bring up how many people are killed in car accidents compared to firearm deaths; one of the most common rebuttals is to say that cars are actually important to living in the modern world and aren't designed as weapons, so they don't deserve that level of regulation.

But there's a pretty damn good point in bringing it up.. 2012 had 34,080 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year) deaths by vehicle accident alone. In 2010, literally thousands of people were dying every month.

But does anyone bat an eye at it?

Car crashes tend to just float by everyone's mind. When Memorial Day weekend hits and a few dozen people get killed on the interstate while driving to the beach, it doesn't make headlines. Not one gun control advocate talks about how cars need tighter regulations when there's probably just as many deaths as Sandy Hook happening each weekend in this country, all caused by motor vehicles. The constant stream of death is totally ignored. Do you just take it as an annual bloodletting of sorts?

There is no honest comparison between the two. The critical difference between cars and guns in the United States is that you have to be licensed to operate a motor vehicle, and that license can be revoked and your privilege to operate motor vehicles along with it. We can discuss in greater detail whether our reckless driving laws are strong enough (I don't think they are), but the basic mechanism is there for taking away the privilege of driving. No such revocation exists for assault weapons, which curiously stand alone in the set of things that can quickly and easily kill multiple people that we cannot confiscate from obviously irreponsible owners.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: chitoryu12 on June 03, 2014, 12:31:33 pm
Quote
There is no honest comparison between the two. The critical difference between cars and guns in the United States is that you have to be licensed to operate a motor vehicle, and that license can be revoked and your privilege to operate motor vehicles along with it. We can discuss in greater detail whether our reckless driving laws are strong enough (I don't think they are), but the basic mechanism is there for taking away the privilege of driving. No such revocation exists for assault weapons, which curiously stand alone in the set of things that can quickly and easily kill multiple people that we cannot confiscate from obviously irreponsible owners.

It's also estimated that about 1/5 of fatal crashes involve at least one driver who is not properly licensed (http://safety.transportation.org/htmlguides/USR/types_of_probs.htm) and up to 3/4 of drivers with suspended or revoked licenses continue to drive.

So yeah, we have the stated regulations in place.....and they aren't working because dangerous assholes who want to drive will keep driving no matter what you do to their license.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: RavynousHunter on June 03, 2014, 01:10:11 pm
To put in more succinctly: the regulations help, but some people won't be deterred no matter WHAT you do.

Also, 'Chew, I dunno where in the world you live, but most reputable places in the US that I know of require background checks to acquire any form of firearm; from a tiny little .22 that couldn't kill a flea, to guns powerful enough to take down a charging rhinoceros in a single shot.  The thing is, a lot of places don't bother because its more of an optional program, instead of a mandatory one.  Yes, there are loopholes that need closing, and we do need to crack down when it comes to people acquiring unlicensed firearms.  I'm all for a universal firearms registration of which people must become members to even be allowed to start the purchasing process.  What would you need to demonstrate to get a permit?  You'd need to pass a gun safety course and submit to a thorough background check, at minimum.

But, again, all the laws in the world won't stop a few lone cranks who are determined and bloody minded enough to acquire a firearm, or find some other way of killing people.  Like explosives.  Anyone with a basic working knowledge of either history and/or chemistry could mix together a batch of working black powder and create a crude pipe bomb.  You can turn a few liters of perfectly innocent cleaning solutions, with the proper know-how, into astrolyte, one of the more powerful, and stable, liquid explosives available.  Hell, with astrolyte, you could turn an ordinary household sponge into a crude imitation of a hand grenade.

You can put all the laws on the books you want, but unless you have people on staff with the balls to actually enforce them, then they're not worth the paper on which they're printed.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on June 03, 2014, 01:14:40 pm
To put in more succinctly: the regulations help, but some people won't be deterred no matter WHAT you do.

Also, 'Chew, I dunno where in the world you live, but most reputable places in the US that I know of require background checks to acquire any form of firearm; from a tiny little .22 that couldn't kill a flea, to guns powerful enough to take down a charging rhinoceros in a single shot.  The thing is, a lot of places don't bother because its more of an optional program, instead of a mandatory one.  Yes, there are loopholes that need closing, and we do need to crack down when it comes to people acquiring unlicensed firearms.  I'm all for a universal firearms registration of which people must become members to even be allowed to start the purchasing process.  What would you need to demonstrate to get a permit?  You'd need to pass a gun safety course and submit to a thorough background check, at minimum.

But, again, all the laws in the world won't stop a few lone cranks who are determined and bloody minded enough to acquire a firearm, or find some other way of killing people.  Like explosives.  Anyone with a basic working knowledge of either history and/or chemistry could mix together a batch of working black powder and create a crude pipe bomb.  You can turn a few liters of perfectly innocent cleaning solutions, with the proper know-how, into astrolyte, one of the more powerful, and stable, liquid explosives available.  Hell, with astrolyte, you could turn an ordinary household sponge into a crude imitation of a hand grenade.

You can put all the laws on the books you want, but unless you have people on staff with the balls to actually enforce them, then they're not worth the paper on which they're printed.
That's basically my opinion actually.
I would like to point out we regulate the fuck put of explosives and materials used for making explosives.
I think we basically have the same opinion on guns a gun control, we should spend more time implementing measures like making people get licenses and having certain rules on using said firearm.
 Also, increased pressure on preventing people from breaking said laws. 
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Witchyjoshy on June 03, 2014, 01:26:24 pm
Besides, as was pointed out before, a gun was only one of his weapons, and YET, no one is giving the fucking car the stink eye or saying we need tighter knife regulations.

This needs to be talked about.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on June 03, 2014, 01:39:15 pm
It's much harder to kill someone with a knife than a gun.
Plus it's basically impossible to regulate knives as their really easy to make.


And I suppose we probably need more auto regulations.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: RavynousHunter on June 03, 2014, 01:44:26 pm
As someone once said "even the sharpest sword is useless in the hands of a coward."
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on June 03, 2014, 02:46:21 pm
Another thing: knives and cars are harder to kill someone with because there is way more evidence if you get up right next to someone.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Witchyjoshy on June 03, 2014, 03:20:17 pm
Another thing: knives and cars are harder to kill someone with because there is way more evidence if you get up right next to someone.

I'm fairly certain that if you're killing someone in public, you're not worrying about evidence.

If we're talking murders, though, then you have a point.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Askold on June 03, 2014, 03:28:05 pm
Another thing: knives and cars are harder to kill someone with because there is way more evidence if you get up right next to someone.

I'm fairly certain that if you're killing someone in public, you're not worrying about evidence.

If we're talking murders, though, then you have a point.
Also, it is not that it is that much harder to kill someone with a car (though it is more location dependant than using a knife or gun), it is just that hiding the evidence is a lot more harder than just tossing it in the trash.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Damen on June 03, 2014, 03:58:14 pm
Hi, all, it's your favorite annoying tumor back for more! There's three things mentioned on the last page that I'd like to address and then I'll fuck off for a while longer.

Gun deaths vs. Car Deaths: I see this argument often from the pro-gun rights crowd, indeed, I've used it myself a time or two (dozen). Lately, however, I've largely stopped using it for a number of reasons. First that leaps to mind is that it addresses gun deaths and car accidents. These days, I've come to find that the only time I will feel comfortable comparing the two these days is in addressing accidental deaths unless I'm specifically talking about vehicular homicide/manslaughter vs firearm homicide/manslaughter.

Gun licensing vs. Car licensing: another argument I've seen made from the pro-gun control crowd that often takes the form of "we license people to own and drive a car but not guns." That's not really true. Yes, we require licensing, registration, plus written and driving tests before you can drive, but that is to be legally allowed to drive on city streets. A lot of people who make this argument aren't aware of it (indeed, this is new knowledge to me) but on your own property you can drive as much as you want without a license, registration, or anything. The reason this isn't common knowledge is because the people who make it live on a small lot or in an apartment, but it's common knowledge among farmers. They can drive their vehicles any way they want, as long as they do it on their own land. Licensing, tests, and all that other fun stuff is only applicable to ownership of a firearm in the same way as it is a car: that is, to be able to carry it with you on city streets. As it stands, to get a license to carry a firearm in Oklahoma, what is required is that you have to take a class that involves both a written test as well as a range test, you have to submit a photo as well as $200 dollars (for a first time issue). But, unlike what is required for cars, to carry a firearm you are also required to submit fingerprints, undergo a background check, and be at least 21 years old (as opposed to 16) and be a citizen of the United States. And also, unlike a drivers license, not every state in the union will honor my Oklahoma CCW permit. In short, if we wanted guns to be regulated like cars, we'd have to relax our standards in regard to firearms.

Gun registry: This I have a problem with as I feel it would require me to cede my 4th Amendment rights in order to exercise my 2nd Amendment rights. And that is with no real tangible benefit in terms of crimes solved or prevented. Chicago and Washington D.C. have had gun registries for years and we know the kind of crime that they have. "But other states have lax gun laws so criminals are buying guns elsewhere and selling them there" I can already see you about to say. However, according to Mayors Against Illegal Guns (hardly an unbiased source, I know) 17.1% of the firearms recovered after a crime in Illinois have a short time-to-crime (time from purchase to their recovery in a crime) while D.C. has an average time to crime rate of 12.9%. When a firearm's purchase date is two years or less from the time of their recovery in a crime then it's an indicator of firearm trafficking. Both of these are lower than the national average (22.6%), which means that the majority of the guns recovered there were owned for more than two years before they wound up on a crime scene which goes to show me that even if you registered every firearm in the USA, they would still get stolen. But even then, it's dubious; Canada had a longgun registery for years and it did little to deter crime and was eventually scrapped. And Toronto police Chief Julian Fantino said of the registry: “We have an ongoing gun crisis, including firearms-related homicides lately in Toronto, and a law registering firearms has neither deterred these crimes nor helped us solve any of them.” When it comes to a gun registry, I might support it if it can be shown to me as a proven way to help fight crime. As long as gun registries have been around, they haven't shown me that proof and because of that I will not trade one right (the 4th) for another (the 2nd).
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on June 03, 2014, 05:42:32 pm
You know, to be honest I'm kinda convinced now.
Fuck.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Witchyjoshy on June 03, 2014, 05:57:52 pm
I have to admit to waffling on this issue because there's a lot of good arguments either way, and a lot of people I respect on both sides of the fence.

And there's also a lot of stupid arguments and a lot of complete fucknuggets on both sides of the fence.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Sleepy on June 03, 2014, 06:32:49 pm
I think something we can all agree on is that there needs to be better enforcement of our current laws. Still, I really don't think Rodger should have been able to obtain those weapons considering his violent history (though I'm assuming none of his acts led to any sort of conviction, which would prevent simple background checks from working). In which case, why was he not charged with any crimes prior to this? Either way, law enforcement has failed us.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: RavynousHunter on June 03, 2014, 06:36:50 pm
Uhm...how is requiring a license to own and operate a firearm an unreasonable search and/or seizure?  They're not searching thru your house, and they aren't taking your guns.  If you honestly think its unreasonable to require that people prove basic firearms competence as well as passing a background check to own a deadly fucking weapon, then you got some damned problems.  If you can't safely operate a firearm, are proven to NOT have a violent criminal history, and/or are proven mentally unstable, then you shouldn't have a bloody gun.  Jesus Christ, its like Black Hat Guy pleading the Third when he was being interviewed as Secretary of the Internet.  Sorry, Damen, but you're going to have to try a little harder to convince me, and likely others.

I'm all for the 2nd Amendment, but reasonable regulations need to be made to help curtail gun-related crimes.  Licenses are a perfectly reasonable form of regulation.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: chitoryu12 on June 03, 2014, 07:16:00 pm
It's much harder to kill someone with a knife than a gun.
Plus it's basically impossible to regulate knives as their really easy to make.


And I suppose we probably need more auto regulations.

Why is it always said that the only solution is "more regulation" and "stricter laws"? It's like there's a knee-jerk reaction where any time something bad happens, the only way to stop it from happening is to just try and regulate society even more.

You can't legislate society away. The economic disparity that drives people to a life of crime doesn't go away if you make their tools more illegal. Banning knives won't turn serial killers sane or make them rethink their plans to decapitate teenage girls.

It's a reactionary thing, where more time is spent flailing around trying to get rid of everything "bad" that nothing is done about the root of the problem. Elliot Rodger's murders, if anything, are a perfect example of the real problem: he followed every single rule and regulation we put in place to prevent it and still went out and killed people with several different methods, because his mental health problems were not properly diagnosed and the authorities not fully aware that he was a psychopath.

Some might say "If he didn't have a gun, he would have killed less people!" Says who? The only reason the killing stopped at all is because he shot himself. Do you think he would have stuck to the same plan, just minus the drive-bys? Would he have just tried to ram his car into the biggest crowds around and run over just as many people? Would he have continued stabbing everyone he saw? Would he have left his plans for a dramatic shooting behind in favor of sneaking up behind sorority girls and cutting their throats at night? The same could be said of Adam Lanza, who picked the most defenseless targets around for his killing.

The problem was never guns. The problem was a batshit insane freak having his symptoms essentially ignored until he was able to grow to the point where he thought that mass murder was a great solution to his problems, and was considered sane enough that nobody tried to stop him and the police wouldn't even take his parents seriously when they tried to call them. Probably because he was from a wealthy family and wasn't obviously non-white.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on June 03, 2014, 08:04:59 pm
Quote
It's a reactionary thing, where more time is spent flailing around trying to get rid of everything "bad" that nothing is done about the root of the problem. Elliot Rodger's murders, if anything, are a perfect example of the real problem: he followed every single rule and regulation we put in place to prevent it and still went out and killed people with several different methods, because his mental health problems were not properly diagnosed and the authorities not fully aware that he was a psychopath.

The problem was never guns. The problem was a batshit insane freak having his symptoms essentially ignored until he was able to grow to the point where he thought that mass murder was a great solution to his problems, and was considered sane enough that nobody tried to stop him and the police wouldn't even take his parents seriously when they tried to call them. Probably because he was from a wealthy family and wasn't obviously non-white.
His mental health problems were fully diagnosed, he had only had autism.


Also, I meant regulations to prevent driving related deaths, such as better safety standards in cars or whatnot.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Witchyjoshy on June 03, 2014, 09:12:03 pm
Also, I meant regulations to prevent driving related deaths, such as better safety standards in cars or whatnot.

I think part of the problem is manpower and funding.  There just isn't enough manpower to actually enforce the traffic laws we DO have.  For every person caught speeding, there's hundreds who will tailgate you, flail about that you are going as slow as 55 MPH in a 55 MPH zone, and pass you going 200 MPH while it's raining out... and never get caught.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Art Vandelay on June 03, 2014, 09:51:44 pm
There's also the fact that cars are already regulated in America to a reasonable standard. America's car related death and injury rate is pretty much on par with the rest of the 1st world, as are their safety regulations. It's rather difficult to make the argument that cars are under regulated in the States.

Guns, on the other hand, are far far FAR less tightly controlled in the US than any other 1st world country, and it also happens to have an abnormally high level of gun related injuries and deaths, up to the point of several school shootings a year. And yes, before someone brings it up, mental health services are just as sub-par, as well there being a cultural stigma against seeking it out in the first place in the rest of the developed world. It's certainly the case in Australia. By far the biggest and most glaring difference that can account of the disparity in gun violence is the vastly different gun regulations.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Witchyjoshy on June 03, 2014, 10:00:10 pm
Somewhat off the subject, I find it amusing when "pro-gun" and "anti-gun" people end up actually agreeing on what they're saying and still getting into arguments because they disagree on the principle.

You may resume your surprisingly friendly debate.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Sigmaleph on June 03, 2014, 10:02:53 pm
Also, I meant regulations to prevent driving related deaths, such as better safety standards in cars or whatnot.

I think "regulation isn't the answer" applies more to cars than guns, actually. People who ignore existing traffic laws will ignore new traffic laws. You can change safety standards in cars, I guess, but safety is ultimately a technological/economic problem which you can't legislate away.

Want less car-related deaths? Put fewer cars on the street, by reducing people's need for cars. Encourage walking/public transport/bikes, at least in areas where those things are feasible.

None of the above really applies to guns, but then I refuse to get into gun control debates.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: R. U. Sirius on June 03, 2014, 10:03:51 pm
Something that I think needs to be kept in mind no matter which side of the debate you fall on: Any new laws and regulations would take years, at minimum, to have a visible effect. The reasons for this are because A) most people with the means to get their hands on a gun likely already have one or more, and B) current gun owners would most likely be grandfathered in, so they would only have to follow the new regulations when buying new weapons, not to keep their old ones.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on June 03, 2014, 10:16:37 pm
Also, I meant regulations to prevent driving related deaths, such as better safety standards in cars or whatnot.

I think "regulation isn't the answer" applies more to cars than guns, actually. People who ignore existing traffic laws will ignore new traffic laws. You can change safety standards in cars, I guess, but safety is ultimately a technological/economic problem which you can't legislate away.

Want less car-related deaths? Put fewer cars on the street, by reducing people's need for cars. Encourage walking/public transport/bikes, at least in areas where those things are feasible.

None of the above really applies to guns, but then I refuse to get into gun control debates.
JOIN US.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: niam2023 on June 04, 2014, 12:31:52 am
Guns don't kill people - bullets kill people.

The NRA is so focused on guns, right now, if the Feds just bought up or even just seized ammo, the NRA would be caught flat footed.

What is the best thing you could do with a gun that has no ammo? Throw it at someone's face?
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: dpareja on June 04, 2014, 12:33:03 am
Guns don't kill people - bullets kill people.

The NRA is so focused on guns, right now, if the Feds just bought up or even just seized ammo, the NRA would be caught flat footed.

What is the best thing you could do with a gun that has no ammo? Throw it at someone's face?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuX-nFmL0II
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on June 04, 2014, 12:34:04 am
Guns don't kill people, people don't kill people, nothing kills poeple.
There is no death and no way to escape from the pain.   
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: dpareja on June 04, 2014, 12:38:33 am
Longer version of the above video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db0Y4qIZ4PA
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Dakota Bob on June 04, 2014, 12:42:35 am
Guns don't kill people, people don't kill people, nothing kills poeple.
There is no death and no escape from the pain.

THE RIDE NEVER ENDS
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: R. U. Sirius on June 04, 2014, 12:50:06 am
Guns don't kill people, people don't kill people, nothing kills poeple.
There is no death and no escape from the pain.

THE RIDE NEVER ENDS

EVERYTHING FLOATS DOWN HERE!
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: MadCatTLX on June 04, 2014, 01:23:19 am
Guns don't kill people - bullets kill people.

The NRA is so focused on guns, right now, if the Feds just bought up or even just seized ammo, the NRA would be caught flat footed.

What is the best thing you could do with a gun that has no ammo? Throw it at someone's face?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHkt5oEv_sI
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Stormwarden on June 04, 2014, 03:22:07 am
The ammo thing...what? You never heard of hand loading?
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Damen on June 04, 2014, 03:58:30 am
Uhm...how is requiring a license to own and operate a firearm an unreasonable search and/or seizure?  They're not searching thru your house, and they aren't taking your guns.  If you honestly think its unreasonable to require that people prove basic firearms competence as well as passing a background check to own a deadly fucking weapon, then you got some damned problems.  If you can't safely operate a firearm, are proven to NOT have a violent criminal history, and/or are proven mentally unstable, then you shouldn't have a bloody gun.  Jesus Christ, its like Black Hat Guy pleading the Third when he was being interviewed as Secretary of the Internet.  Sorry, Damen, but you're going to have to try a little harder to convince me, and likely others.

I'm all for the 2nd Amendment, but reasonable regulations need to be made to help curtail gun-related crimes.  Licenses are a perfectly reasonable form of regulation.

Sorry, Rav, but I feel that if I can complete a background check and have not committed a crime then the government doesn't need to know what I have within my own home. If you think that people having unregistered firearms is a huge problem, keep this in mind: in 2009 Americans bought over 14 million firearms. That is more firearms in private hands than there are troops in 21 of the world's standing armies (including the United States and the People's Republic of China). Combined. And that was in 2009. And for all of that, homicides in the USA of all types stand at around 13,000 (rounded up) as of 2012. All these unregistered firearms aren't adding to an already declining crime rate because they're owned by people who aren't trigger-happy criminals. And, as I said before, there have been a number of police officials who have said registries don't work and the evidence that they can contribute to a reduction in crime or assistance in solving crimes is scarce/missing. Because of that lack of evidence that they help and the stats that show over-all low crime rates coupled with exploding ownership of unregistered firearms proves to me that the need for them to be registered isn't as pressing as you might think. But I will admit that if you can show me there is a tangible benefit to registering firearms, I'll be happy to rethink my position, but until then I am going to continue to feel it isn't any of the government's business what firearms I own so long as I am not committing crimes or a threat to anyone.

And basic firearms competence comes from learning and remembering the four cardinal rules of firearms:


Simple rules that anyone can remember. If I haven't convinced you, that is alright; these are just my views and we can agree to disagree on this issue.

Guns don't kill people - bullets kill people.

The NRA is so focused on guns, right now, if the Feds just bought up or even just seized ammo, the NRA would be caught flat footed.

What is the best thing you could do with a gun that has no ammo? Throw it at someone's face?

Actually, you'll find that won't be as easy as is thought. Not too long ago, word got out that the Department of Homeland Security was buying up ammo like they were getting ready for an invasion. 1.6 billion rounds of ammo, according to some places. This spawned ammo hoarding among gun owners, ripped through gun sites like an Australian wildfire and even spawned a congressional inquiry because so many people were calling their congressmen about it. And that was over a simple rumor.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Askold on June 04, 2014, 04:02:05 am
Guns don't kill people - bullets kill people.

The NRA is so focused on guns, right now, if the Feds just bought up or even just seized ammo, the NRA would be caught flat footed.

What is the best thing you could do with a gun that has no ammo? Throw it at someone's face?
Obviously you have never heard of the... BAYONET!!!

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PcUtp0jAPBw/UWNGtuxCtaI/AAAAAAAARio/Pk6QMMz7X18/s400/BayonetCharge08-04-13-03.jpg)
There was a British military video about bayonet training but I can't find the best one now.

(click to show/hide)

Seriously though, illegal transportation/manufacturing of ammunition is easier than doing the same with guns. I would rather keep focus on gun ownership control on the legal side. Illegal guns are a different matter and should be something with very severe punishments regardless of how legal weapons are treated.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: chitoryu12 on June 04, 2014, 10:16:40 am
His mental health problems were fully diagnosed, he had only had autism.

His problems clearly weren't fully diagnosed! Do you seriously think that someone can attempt to murder dozens of innocent people (on top of randomly assaulting others beforehand) when they have nothing mentally wrong with them beyond autism? Never mind that it's actually still being disputed as to whether or not the family lawyer was correct when he said that he had been diagnosed; a family friend has since claimed that he was never officially diagnosed and was merely suspected by his parents to be on the spectrum.

Killing human beings is hard. We're naturally predisposed to not want to do it, which is why just about everyone who's ever taken a life (even indirectly) still suffers mentally from it and why soldiers in war (http://www.military-sf.com/Killing.htm) have been found to often fire specifically to miss the target or even refuse to fire altogether.

If you're going to stab, shoot, and run down over a dozen people, you pretty obviously have something wrong with your brain beyond being slightly autistic.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Canadian Mojo on June 04, 2014, 11:38:04 am
If you're going to stab, shoot, and run down over a dozen people, you pretty obviously have something wrong with your brain beyond being slightly autistic.
True perhaps, but we still haven't figured out how to spot that little flaw in the wiring. Maybe it isn't a flaw or it's so common we can't see the forest for the trees. Basically all it took was for him to not see them as human and to not give a fuck about the consequences to himself. If your link is anything to go by, it occurs naturally without help 1:5, and with a bit of conditioning the numbers jump up to near universal (although you are going from a drafted army to a volunteer army which I would imagine skews the numbers by a goodly amount).

This fuckwit had a fairly common predisposition, was immersed in a subculture that dehumanizes and hates, set against a backdrop of a society that is very much in love with manly violent solutions to all its problems.

Scary as it sounds, I don't think there was that much wrong with him.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Witchyjoshy on June 04, 2014, 12:21:05 pm
You don't have to be a sociopath to dehumanize people.  Hell, what's scary is that the more you perceive someone as doing wrong, the easier it is to dehumanize them.  Look at how many people support even the most torturous death penalty for no other reason than "They're criminals and they deserve to die, why should we even bother with a painless death?"

He perceived these women as doing something grievously wrong to him, he perceived society as doing something grievously wrong to him, therefore, it was scarily easily for him to dehumanize people and society.

Though I doubt he was planning his meals for the day after his attack, if you get my drift.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Kat S. on June 04, 2014, 12:36:12 pm
If you're going to stab, shoot, and run down over a dozen people, you pretty obviously have something wrong with your brain beyond being slightly autistic.

Scary as it sounds, I don't think there was that much wrong with him.

I agree with both of you.  The parents of the shooter were claiming that he had Asperger's syndrome and other problems which he was prescribed medication for, but he refused to be compliant.  If he were an active member of the neo-Nazis or some other white supremacy group, people would squarely place the responsibility on him and place the blame for it ever happening on him and the movement.  For some reason, people haven't made the connection that misogynists who have violent fantasies against women exist. 

People have made other speculative reasons in place of what is the most obvious:  Elliott Roger was a straight, misogynist male that went on a rampage because his romantic life wasn't happening the way he felt it should.  He failed to understand or outright refused to acknowledge that just having wealth and connections in Hollywood isn't going to automatically attract women in droves.  You can be the wealthiest guy in the world with all of the most prominent people on speed dial on your cell phone, but if you're a classist, elitist, racist, and sexist jerk with narcissism, jealously, and anger issues to boot, women will avoid you like the plague.  Like most love-shy/PUA/MRA, anti-PUA, and any other subscriber to the manosphere, interactions with other people can become more of a rocket science when you're trying to get dates with women all while not doing anything to improve yourself or even get out of you comfort zone.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: ironbite on June 04, 2014, 12:56:29 pm
Actually...he was.  He did not expect any resistance to his spree and people would just flee from him in terror until he could come kill them.  He was the "alpha predator" after all.

Ironbite-he also expected an army to spring up to help him and well...
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: I am lizard on June 04, 2014, 01:40:01 pm
Actually...he was.  He did not expect any resistance to his spree and people would just flee from him in terror until he could come kill them.  He was the "alpha predator" after all.

Ironbite-he also expected an army to spring up to help him and well...
He was what? Mentally I'll or an entitled white cishet?

I think if he did have something it had to have been blown up to extreme proportions thanks to his own social status and standards society has engrained in him.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: chitoryu12 on June 04, 2014, 05:51:47 pm
Actually...he was.  He did not expect any resistance to his spree and people would just flee from him in terror until he could come kill them.  He was the "alpha predator" after all.

Ironbite-he also expected an army to spring up to help him and well...

If you look at the manifesto or plots or whatever of spree killers (the ones who actually plan their shit and talk about it, at least, like the Columbine kids), you'll notice that their plans are filled with what could charitably be called "delusions of grandeur." They expect to kill way more people than they end up killing and for their rampage to last for ages. They may even plan ahead with even grander schemes; Harris and Klebold alternated between fleeing to Mexico and hijacking an airliner to crash into a city.

One thing that still hasn't been totally figured out is why spree killers commit suicide so often. Theories include the killers being motivated by sudden shame or guilt after actually committing the act and self-punishing, as well as the theory that they feel such a sense of hopelessness at society or their lot in life that the spree killing is essentially a giant suicide attempt. The idea is that they already want to die, but are simultaneously fueled by hatred for the world around them. So it's a semi-literal killing two birds with one stone.
Title: Re: College Gunman Influenced by Men's Rights Movement
Post by: Kat S. on June 04, 2014, 07:54:05 pm
Actually...he was.  He did not expect any resistance to his spree and people would just flee from him in terror until he could come kill them.  He was the "alpha predator" after all.

Ironbite-he also expected an army to spring up to help him and well...

If you look at the manifesto or plots or whatever of spree killers (the ones who actually plan their shit and talk about it, at least, like the Columbine kids), you'll notice that their plans are filled with what could charitably be called "delusions of grandeur." They expect to kill way more people than they end up killing and for their rampage to last for ages. They may even plan ahead with even grander schemes; Harris and Klebold alternated between fleeing to Mexico and hijacking an airliner to crash into a city.

One thing that still hasn't been totally figured out is why spree killers commit suicide so often. Theories include the killers being motivated by sudden shame or guilt after actually committing the act and self-punishing, as well as the theory that they feel such a sense of hopelessness at society or their lot in life that the spree killing is essentially a giant suicide attempt. The idea is that they already want to die, but are simultaneously fueled by hatred for the world around them. So it's a semi-literal killing two birds with one stone.

I think another theory, working along side the delusions of grandeur, is that some mass shooters possess a type of messiah complex like the Virginia Tech shooter.  That guy felt he was, in a sense, saving the "innocent people" like himself from the supposed cruelty of the "rich and snobby" kids by making the "rich" kids suffer the same level of cruelty by shooting at them and killing and maiming them both emotionally and physically.  He had already figured that he would get into a shootout with police, but regardless, he would die as a martyr for the cause of "inflicting punishment on rich kids picking on kids like him".

I think Roger was thinking along the same lines of a messiah complex.  He had already stated in video and writing that he considered himself as a god of sorts, and the shooting should cement that into everyone else who "didn't get it" until the shooting.  He probably hoped that with this shooting, he would die as a revered martyr to the "men's right to free sex" cause, and this shooting would cause conventionally attractive women to not say no to any mouth breathing creepazoid that wants her to be his "girlfriend".