Author Topic: True domesticated Foxes as pets now available  (Read 8212 times)

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Offline CaseAgainstFaith

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Re: True domesticated Foxes as pets now available
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2012, 05:17:07 pm »
Dogs are just very physically altered wolves.

And also (to the OP), they've already domesticated the silver fox and the fennec fox so this is hardly the first.

I think my OP article is talking about silver foxes...at least that's what it sounds like from the coloring description.  Also Fennec Foxes are not domesticated - "with proper socialization and training they will be manageable, but it is important to remember that they are basically tame wild animals, not domesticated animals like dogs. " - http://exoticpets.about.com/cs/fennecfoxes/p/fennecfox.htm
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Offline gyeonghwa

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Re: True domesticated Foxes as pets now available
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2012, 07:57:49 pm »
I have heard the same arguments made for cats, though. Some people consider them tamed rather domesticated.
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Offline JohnE

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Re: True domesticated Foxes as pets now available
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2012, 01:19:03 am »
I have heard the same arguments made for cats, though. Some people consider them tamed rather domesticated.
I think that's half true. They're not as domesticated as dogs, but more so than a truly wild animal.

I think having an animal that's merely tame rather than domesticated probably isn't such a big deal if it's small like a fennec. It's when people start trying to make pets out of big things like wolves, big cats, and chimpanzees it gets dangerous.

Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: True domesticated Foxes as pets now available
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2012, 02:47:30 am »
I once saw an Animal Planet blurb about a guy who somehow managed to tame an... I think it was a crocodile?  Not sure, I can never remember which one is the one with the visible teeth, and which one is the one with the "concealed" teeth.

It essentially tolerated and maybe even enjoyed his presence, didn't attack him, and even had a little place to live in his basement I think.

Of course, it's been literal years since I've seen that blurb, and I have no idea if that crocodile ever stayed friendly.

Actually, I'd like to see a reptile, any reptile, that's been domesticated.
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Offline The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist

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Re: True domesticated Foxes as pets now available
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2012, 07:09:03 am »
I have heard the same arguments made for cats, though. Some people consider them tamed rather domesticated.

I think the problem is that people think domesticated = acts like a dog.
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Offline JohnE

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Re: True domesticated Foxes as pets now available
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2012, 11:26:17 am »
I once saw an Animal Planet blurb about a guy who somehow managed to tame an... I think it was a crocodile?  Not sure, I can never remember which one is the one with the visible teeth, and which one is the one with the "concealed" teeth.

It essentially tolerated and maybe even enjoyed his presence, didn't attack him, and even had a little place to live in his basement I think.

Of course, it's been literal years since I've seen that blurb, and I have no idea if that crocodile ever stayed friendly.

Actually, I'd like to see a reptile, any reptile, that's been domesticated.
Don't know if it's the same guy, but I read a story a few years back about some guy who had tamed a croc and live with it for years without incident. Then one day it bit his arm off.

Offline gyeonghwa

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Re: True domesticated Foxes as pets now available
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2012, 01:20:01 pm »
I consider domestication in degrees rather than absolutes. Dogs are certainly more domesticated than cats, having had much more physically alterations than cats. But both cats and dogs (depends on the breed as some breed are much more stable than others), can revert to feral in a couple of generations, or breed with their wild ancestors to become less domesticated. Cows and silk moths on the other hand, are almost incapable of reverting to a wild state, so they are more domesticated.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: True domesticated Foxes as pets now available
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2012, 02:40:51 pm »
I wonder what a wild cow would act like.

And then I remember bison.

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Offline gyeonghwa

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Re: True domesticated Foxes as pets now available
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2012, 05:14:01 pm »
Interestingly, the wild ancestor of the cow went extinct in the 15th century. There has been attempts to re-breed the modern cow into the wild version with varying success.
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Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: True domesticated Foxes as pets now available
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2012, 03:23:13 pm »
I consider domestication in degrees rather than absolutes. Dogs are certainly more domesticated than cats, having had much more physically alterations than cats. But both cats and dogs (depends on the breed as some breed are much more stable than others), can revert to feral in a couple of generations, or breed with their wild ancestors to become less domesticated. Cows and silk moths on the other hand, are almost incapable of reverting to a wild state, so they are more domesticated.

Your average housecat it hasn't been selectively bred to any real extent so effectively, it is still a wild animal. Take two kittens out of the same litter, put one in the woods and one in the house and you get two different animals.

You can argue that natural selection has been pushing cats towards liking people, and it to a certain extent probably has in a process similar to what happened to turn wolves into dogs, but by that standard roaches, rats, and crab lice are domesticated too.

Offline The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist

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Re: True domesticated Foxes as pets now available
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2012, 08:27:16 pm »
I think Gyeonghwa got it right with the post about domestication working in degrees. Truly feral cats ("cats" meaning the species we keep as house pets rather than the broader Felis genus, or felines in general) do exhibit traits associated with wild animals, and tend to do better at surviving sans man than dogs, cows, etc. At the same time, humans have interfered in their breeding to more than a small extent, both intentionally and accidentally, which has produced genetics that seem to make them better suited to being raised as pets than many truly wild animals, and not just in regard to safety concerns stemming from size and the like.

A related anecdote: I once read a theory that house cats essentially live a life of extended kittenhood, obvious differences in adult behavior not withstanding. I recall something in there about feral and wild cats generally only purring as kittens, likely as some kind of signal to their mother, which does seem to support the notion that living around humans preserves kittenhood to some degree in mature cats.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 08:35:30 pm by Mlle Antéchrist »
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Offline Jack Mann

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Re: True domesticated Foxes as pets now available
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2012, 08:42:26 am »
I wonder what a wild cow would act like.

And then I remember bison.

Less like bison, more like cape buffalo.  Picture something two or three times the size of a modern cow.  It has long, sharp horns.  But the physical differences aren't the big ones.  The behavioral ones are the important ones.

When a herd of cattle notice a threat, they move away, stampeding in the opposite direction.  The ancestor of the cow, the aurochs, didn't have with that.  They would stampede toward the threat.  And then very quickly make sure it wasn't a threat, ever again.

Julius Caesar spoke of these things with awe, and felt it would be impossible to domesticate them.  The fact that people had done so, and done so so well that it was unimaginable that the cow and the aurochs were the same beast, is a testament to our ancestors' ingenuity.

As for cats, they are domesticated to a large extent.  True wildcats don't stay in that extended kittenhood, no matter what you do with them.  Cats simply aren't as domesticated as dogs, because their natural independence made them excellent for pest control.

The extended childhood (called neoteny) is a common feature of many domesticated animals, particularly cats and dogs (and the domesticated silver foxes).  It's the most convenient way to use the animal's natural instincts to make it pliable.
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Offline Cataclysm

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Re: True domesticated Foxes as pets now available
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2012, 02:47:05 am »
I once saw an Animal Planet blurb about a guy who somehow managed to tame an... I think it was a crocodile?  Not sure, I can never remember which one is the one with the visible teeth, and which one is the one with the "concealed" teeth.

I think I heard that on TV tropes, which stated the crocodile had brain damage which repressed its predatory instincts.
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Offline StallChaser

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Re: True domesticated Foxes as pets now available
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2012, 03:20:03 pm »
The closest I've seen to a domesticated wild animal is a wolfdog.  If you didn't know he was part wolf you'd just think he was an extremely cute dog with really long legs, a big head, and ADHD.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: True domesticated Foxes as pets now available
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2012, 09:27:44 pm »
My fear would be people abandoning pet foxes like they do pet dogs and cats, leading to a sizeable increase in the fox population which could be a bad thing for wildlife.

As seen in feral pigs and cats, it wouldn't take too many generations in the wild for them to turn back into plain old foxes.