FSTDT Forums
Community => Society and History => Topic started by: Nightangel8212 on December 14, 2012, 01:20:37 pm
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http://ca.news.yahoo.com/connecticut-towns-schools-locked-down-following-shooting-report-153953370.html
This is horrible! At least 27 people are dead, among them children, the school principal, the school psychologist, and the shooter himself.
There's no word on motive, but the shooter was apparently a father of one of the children who attends the school.
I... I really don't know what else to say about this except... what a monster. Anyone who opens fire on a school full of children... I can't imagine how they could have justified their own actions.
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What the fuck is wrong with people!? If this sub-human piece of filth is alive don't waste time on a trial, just find some island far from society and leave him there.
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I hate to be that guy but...
...school psychologist?? Is that a standard thing in American schools?
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He shot himself.
I hate these things, I never understand what makes people think this is good plan. Ever.
School Psychologist is usually called a school councilor. I figured it was basically the same idea as one, just better trained than one.
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Some schools will have them in place of a consoler if they're really well off which this one must have been. But yeah...absolutly disgusting.
Ironbite-and CUE THE GUN CONTROL DEBATES ANEW!
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He shot himself.
I hate these things, I never understand what makes people think this is good plan. Ever.
School Psychologist is usually called a school councilor. I figured it was basically the same idea as one, just better trained than one.
From what I can tell, guidance councilor has basically been divided into two separate jobs. One involves dealing with psychological issues/learning disabilities and that sort of thing. The other helps students with college and career planning. I may be wrong about this, as my school does not have both, but I have one close friend training for each, and based on what they've said to me about it, that's the divide.
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The news is reporting there were 2 shooters and the second one has been arrested.
Ironbite-fucking hell.
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Just woke up to seeing this on the news. What the fuck is wrong with this species.
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(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/126/314/3cd8a33a.png)
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Count is up to 30, 20 of that kids ages 5-10.
Ironbite-fuck this guy.
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It gets worse people http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/14/15901085-villager-slashes-22-kids-with-knife-at-elementary-school-gates-in-china?lite
Knifing at a school in China http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im-FCp9N-fg
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That's not really....worse. I mean yeah some kids got hurt but not killed like what happened in CT.
Ironbite-it's bad but not worse then this where 20 kids got killed.
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I meant more bad news in terms of school violence
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Some places are saying that the shooter's mother worked at the school and was also killed. A lot of different things flying around right now.
Edit: Also, a dead body was found in the shooter's home. WTF?
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So fucked up. As one of my friends said, "Who the fuck shoots up an elementary school??".
I don't know if it's still true, but I had heard that one whole class was still unaccounted for too.
Ironbite-and CUE THE GUN CONTROL DEBATES ANEW!
Already seen it on a few statuses or comments on Facebook. Didn't take long at all for that to get fired up.
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Can we submit FB quotes to the main page if they're absolutely awful?
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This is horrifying. When I saw the headline this morning, it only said that the gunman was dead. Didn't mention any other casualties. I got home to see this on the news and am still in shock. This surpasses Columbine.
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So fucked up. As one of my friends said, "Who the fuck shoots up an elementary school??".
I don't know if it's still true, but I had heard that one whole class was still unaccounted for too.
Ironbite-and CUE THE GUN CONTROL DEBATES ANEW!
Already seen it on a few statuses or comments on Facebook. Didn't take long at all for that to get fired up.
That's one of the things that bothers me. When people are looking for what the motivation for the shooter was, all I can think is "they shot up an elementary school, that tells you everything you need to know about their state of mind".
Edit: And the shooter's brother is in custody.
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God, Obama's statement was heart-wrenching.
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I hate to be that guy but...
...school psychologist?? Is that a standard thing in American schools?
As others have said, they're usually the counselors- a psychology degree is preferred because it allows the school to better recognize abuse cases (which the schools are required by law to report), improves the chances of success for students with learning disabilities, and so on. They're sort of a just-in-case person.
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Hero teacher Kaitlin Roig tells ABC News that she barricaded her first grade students in classroom bathroom and locked the door when she first heard gun shots. “The kids were being so good. They asked: ‘Can we go see if anyone is out there? … I just want Christmas… I don’t want to die, I just want to have Christmas.’ I said, you’re going to have Christmas and Hanukkah.. I tried to be positive.”
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That kind of thing just breaks your heart.
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I will never understand such senseless killing.
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There's no motivation for shooting up a classroom, especially full of children. What I want to know is, where was school security? I had to pull teeth just to get my brother our of class (after my mother called) and the lady glared at me if I so much as stepped to the hallway door to look.
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There's no motivation for shooting up a classroom, especially full of children. What I want to know is, where was school security? I had to pull teeth just to get my brother our of class (after my mother called) and the lady glared at me if I so much as stepped to the hallway door to look.
Almost every school I've ever taught at, or gone to myself, doesn't have security or any type of officers. The largest school near me, with a 400ish students in their senior class, doesn't have anything other than cameras on campus. The smaller schools around here don't even have that.
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So apparently Fox news is ALREADY trying to scapegoat video games and gun control as the fault of the shooting. Goddamn, they have no decency. People JUST found out that they are going to be celebrating the holidays without their little kids, and you guys are already blaming the liberals? Fuck you Fox.
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So apparently Fox news is ALREADY trying to scapegoat video games and gun control as the fault of the shooting. Goddamn, they have no decency. People JUST found out that they are going to be celebrating the holidays without their little kids, and you guys are already blaming the liberals? Fuck you Fox.
...wow.
I was already not a fan of Fox, but this... just fuck you Fox.
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Can we please stop the Jack Thompson defense. Hell after reading about this Saints Row was the only thing that remotely made me happy
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Goddamn it! I just found out about this and I am angry and sad. I don't have cable but I came across it on Facebook. Also, the fact that Christmas is near and some families lost their children was heart breaking; I want to cry. I want to know what the fuck is causing all these shootings this year; first with the Batman theater shooting, then the one in Oregon recently and now this? I wish that kind, caring aliens could take me off this fucking planet.
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My facebook has exploded with anti American sentiment
"I want to feel sad for those American kids in Connecticut, but they were probably going to grow up into yankee douchbags, so fuck em"
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My facebook has exploded with anti American sentiment
"I want to feel sad for those American kids in Connecticut, but they were probably going to grow up into yankee douchbags, so fuck em"
Sounds like you have some pretty... to use their word... "douchebag" friends on facebook. >.>
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My facebook has exploded with anti American sentiment
"I want to feel sad for those American kids in Connecticut, but they were probably going to grow up into yankee douchbags, so fuck em"
Wow. Tell the heartless motherfuckers to get the fucking steak knives out of their assholes and shove them down their throats instead.
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http://gawker.com/5968561/five-of-the-twelve-deadliest-gun-massacres-in-us-history-took-place-during-obamas-first-term/gallery/1
URL says it all.
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I don't have a link, but my sister heard on the news that the man was the son of one of the teachers in the school, and he was angry at his mother for some reason. He went down to the school, and (forgive me for the graphic horrific details) shot all of her kindergarten students execution style in the back of their heads, before killing her and then himself. This was, of course, after he visited the office.
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I don't have a link, but my sister heard on the news that the man was the son of one of the teachers in the school, and he was angry at his mother for some reason. He went down to the school, and (forgive me for the graphic horrific details) shot all of her kindergarten students execution style in the back of their heads, before killing her and then himself. This was, of course, after he visited the office.
There was also a dead body found in the shooter's house, not sure if they named who that was. They changed the shooter to the original's younger 20 year old brother who had mental health issues.
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This guy was obviously a nutjob. There was probably no motive for this at all.
In any case, a sad day for America. Killing children like this is nothing short of despicable.
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I heard the man found in his home was one of his brothers.
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This video is 3 years old but still relevant http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4
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I want to see how long it takes someone to say that the teachers should've been armed and it would never have happen if so...
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As usual the gun law debate has kicked off again, with the predictable stupidity being spewed forth from both sides.
I also thought it worth mentioning that when a similar happened in Scotland 16 years ago it lead directly to the effective ban on handguns in the UK. But I doubt there will be much in the way of a US-wide change in gun laws somehow. No previous school shooting changed much.
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I want to see how long it takes someone to say that the teachers should've been armed and it would never have happen if so...
My brother more or less said something along those lines. Disappointing, because he's actually rather intelligent.
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This is a tragedy. This is something that's more senseless than an American port of Doctor Who.
And then you have assholes like Bryan Fischer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is2x7QTZ8AI
Yeah, fuck you dude. Fuck you in half.
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I want to see how long it takes someone to say that the teachers should've been armed and it would never have happen if so...
I can do you one better- a guy on Facebook just said teachers and students should be armed, and that would prevent this.
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Yes, let's arm 5 years olds...great fucking idea. The stupid, it burns.
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This is a tragedy. This is something that's more senseless than an American port of Doctor Who.
And then you have assholes like Bryan Fischer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is2x7QTZ8AI
Yeah, fuck you dude. Fuck you in half.
.......................................my head.
Ironbite-just...my head
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I want to see how long it takes someone to say that the teachers should've been armed and it would never have happen if so...
I can do you one better- a guy on Facebook just said teachers and students should be armed, and that would prevent this.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg/800px-Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg)
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You know, this is why I hate the immediate post-tragedy emotional time. It's when people are in shocked, looking for a knee-jerk (often useless) reaction and end up saying stupid shit, regardless of which side of the isle you land on.
When tragedy strikes, people get stupid.
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Someone do me a favor and sock Bryan Fischer in the jaw for me.
Please.
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Obviously the atheists caused this. (https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/380756_404495622960736_1479477888_n.jpg)
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I heard about this story while I was at work. Now that I'm home, I've seen so many different versions of this story that I'm not even sure what's true or not. Nevertheless, it's still a sad and needless tragedy that had to happen this morning. So many families are now having to deal with the grief of the loss of their loved ones, especially during the holidays. I just can't wrap my head around why somebody would have to destroy so many lives. If you have issues and things look bleak, why can't you just off yourself and leave others out of it?
As for finger-pointing, on my drive home from work, I was hearing a person on talk radio going on about how the reason for this shooting was because of peoples' immoral acts, and because people are turning away from God. This caller then went on to say how when he was growing up and in school, things like this shooting never happened because everybody went to church and prayed. So in other words, this person was blaming all of us who don't go to church, or believe in God, or follow other religions.
It's bad enough that this tragedy happened, we shouldn't make it worse by blaming everybody else for the actions of the nutjob responsible.
Obviously the atheists caused this. (https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/380756_404495622960736_1479477888_n.jpg)
And more atheist-blaming for the shooting... Figures.
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As for finger-pointing, on my drive home from work, I was hearing a person on talk radio going on about how the reason for this shooting was because of peoples' immoral acts, and because people are turning away from God. This caller then went on to say how when he was growing up and in school, things like this shooting never happened because everybody went to church and prayed. So in other words, this person was blaming all of us who don't go to church, or believe in God, or follow other religions.
All the while ignoring the many, many countries that don't have the same number of massacres and spree-killings yet have a very high percentage of atheists in their population, or countries that aren't Christian.
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This is a tragedy. This is something that's more senseless than an American port of Doctor Who.
And then you have assholes like Bryan Fischer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is2x7QTZ8AI
Yeah, fuck you dude. Fuck you in half.
I love how he says when god was in schools, we didn't need guns. Funny, since some of the worst massacres occurred then... anyone remember http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster)
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As for finger-pointing, on my drive home from work, I was hearing a person on talk radio going on about how the reason for this shooting was because of peoples' immoral acts, and because people are turning away from God. This caller then went on to say how when he was growing up and in school, things like this shooting never happened because everybody went to church and prayed. So in other words, this person was blaming all of us who don't go to church, or believe in God, or follow other religions.
All the while ignoring the many, many countries that don't have the same number of massacres and spree-killings yet have a very high percentage of atheists in their population, or countries that aren't Christian.
I live in Canada, and I know that despite the lower percentage of observing Christians, we don't have hardly the number of massacres and spree killings here. That person's argument has been invalidated.
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BTW in case anyone missed and wants to see Obama's speech:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKL6S3LEw6c
Oh and I'm waiting for the conspiracy morons to start saying this was a planned attack by Obama as part of a ploy to take away their precious, precious guns. You know it's going to happen, it always does.
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BTW in case anyone missed and wants to see Obama's speech:
Wow, that was heart-wrenching. I'm not even a parent, but I sure feel for them right now.
Oh and I'm waiting for the conspiracy morons to start saying this was a planned attack by Obama as part of a ploy to take away their precious, precious guns. You know it's going to happen, it always does.
I'm sure I've already heard some of those morons already today, they waste no time in trying to make it sound like some kind of sinister plot.
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Post I found on Tumblr that sums up the insanity surrounding gun politics in the U.S.
“Now is not the time to talk about gun control.”
Yeah, now is not the time to talk about gun control.
The time to talk about gun control was after Columbine. And then again after Virginia Tech. And then again after Fort Hood. And then again after the Giffords shooting. And then again after Aurora.
When 18 elementary school students have been shot and killed, it’s too late.
As for the shooting itself, I don't even have words that describe how awful what happened is. My heart goes out to all the victims families.
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(http://25.media.tumblr.com/857aa8919b9660606b77e7b59b0ea0a1/tumblr_mf1kjdZ1xO1qfud0lo1_500.png)
What I 'love' is the guy they got to the Mass Effect fanpage is innocent. Wasn't connected at all. Way to go, media.
I love that the media ruined the lives of anyone with the same name as the guy who did it.
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I have one thing to say to anyone who is using the Connecticut school shootings to prove a political point, either pro-gun or anti-gun, blaming video games or even the conservatives or Obama or religion or no religion: FUCK YOU. 27 adults and children died this morning; it shouldn't matter what your creed or politics are, only that there are so many fucking corpses in CT at the moment from this one tragedy that the state law enforcement people need to bring in more coroners to help them. So show a bit of human decency and save the arguments for after the kids are buried, okay?
I posted that on Facebook.
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I have one thing to say to anyone who is using the Connecticut school shootings to prove a political point, either pro-gun or anti-gun, blaming video games or even the conservatives or Obama or religion or no religion: FUCK YOU. 27 adults and children died this morning; it shouldn't matter what your creed or politics are, only that there are so many fucking corpses in CT at the moment from this one tragedy that the state law enforcement people need to bring in more coroners to help them. So show a bit of human decency and save the arguments for after the kids are buried, okay?
I posted that on Facebook.
Is ok if I steal this from you??
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I have one thing to say to anyone who is using the Connecticut school shootings to prove a political point, either pro-gun or anti-gun, blaming video games or even the conservatives or Obama or religion or no religion: FUCK YOU. 27 adults and children died this morning; it shouldn't matter what your creed or politics are, only that there are so many fucking corpses in CT at the moment from this one tragedy that the state law enforcement people need to bring in more coroners to help them. So show a bit of human decency and save the arguments for after the kids are buried, okay?
I posted that on Facebook.
Is ok if I steal this from you??
Be my guest.
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Why are there always going to be evil little pricks out there who figure it's a good idea to murder a bunch of innocent people? I know they exist I just wish they'd stop.
And shooting little kids...
My thoughts are with the families of the dead.
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I don't see it as bringing politics into it. I see it as trying to figure out how to prevent another one. I thought this back after the Aurora shooting and the Tucson shooting: how can we make sure it doesn't happen again? If gun control is the answer, so be it; I'm not being political, and I'm certainly not trying to use the tragedy to prove my point. I'll save the rest of my post for the gun control thread. I just don't understand what needs to happen before people can have a serious conversation about how to prevent it. Gun control, better support for the mentally ill, whatever. Just don't shut people down, because like was said a few posts back, we should've had this discussion years ago.
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I'm not disagreeing. I'm just pissed off at the political point-scoring...
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And does anyone ever bring up the state of mental health in this country?? Only a few and they're ignored for the most part, instead we have have the same stupid gun debate OVER AND OVER AGAIN. I think its about time the media should try looking at the root of the problem for once.
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And does anyone ever bring up the state of mental health in this country?? Only a few and they're ignored for the most part, instead we have have the same stupid gun debate OVER AND OVER AGAIN. I think about the media should try looking at the root of the problem for once.
THIS.
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I don't see it as bringing politics into it. I see it as trying to figure out how to prevent another one. I thought this back after the Aurora shooting and the Tucson shooting: how can we make sure it doesn't happen again? If gun control is the answer, so be it; I'm not being political, and I'm certainly not trying to use the tragedy to prove my point. I'll save the rest of my post for the gun control thread. I just don't understand what needs to happen before people can have a serious conversation about how to prevent it. Gun control, better support for the mentally ill, whatever. Just don't shut people down, because like was said a few posts back, we should've had this discussion years ago.
America has been having this "discussion" for 100 years. Every time this happens there is the usual hand wringing and chest beating and then everything returns to how it was. Nothing will be done because the the gun lobby is far too powerful to allow anything to be done. The only thing you can hope for is that it doesn't happen to you or yours because anything more than that is simply out of the question.
Americans are allowed to own guns. It's in the constitution. The End.
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And does anyone ever bring up the state of mental health in this country?? Only a few and they're ignored for the most part, instead we have have the same stupid gun debate OVER AND OVER AGAIN. I think about the media should try looking at the root of the problem for once.
THIS.
Thank you.
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This is the same country whose legislative body recently rejected a UN treaty on disabilities due to crazy conspiracies about the UN. Does anyone really think they'll attempt comprehensive mental health legislation OR gun laws?
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(http://24.media.tumblr.com/19c1d841d67eae369f9eb4457aa62b74/tumblr_mf1o5g5goA1rntkqgo1_500.jpg)
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Just want to point out that it was originally CNN who labeled that kid as the shooter. Fox likely followed their lead.
Scumbag RR (http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?182690-Elementary-School-Shooting-in-Connecticut&p=2336710#post2336710)
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This is a tragedy. This is something that's more senseless than an American port of Doctor Who.
And then you have assholes like Bryan Fischer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is2x7QTZ8AI
Yeah, fuck you dude. Fuck you in half.
Fuck Bryan Fischer. I never say this about anyone, but for him, I'll make an exception, especially after this. The sooner Bryan Fischer dies, the better. He's a disgusting excuse for a human being who has actually encouraged KIDNAPPING of children with gay parents, and now he's fucking using this tragedy to promote his unconstitutional political agenda? Hopefully old age brings with it some sort of disease, because I have fucking had it with this man and his disgusting vitriol he spouts on a daily basis, knowing people actually listen. Fuck.
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http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?182690-Elementary-School-Shooting-in-Connecticut&p=2336710#post2336710
http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?182690-Elementary-School-Shooting-in-Connecticut&p=2336712#post2336712
http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?182690-Elementary-School-Shooting-in-Connecticut&p=2336721#post2336721
FFS
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http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?182690-Elementary-School-Shooting-in-Connecticut&p=2336720#post2336720
Like how this guy was pretty much quoting Fischer verbatim. Would not surprise me since most fundies seem to love the guy.
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And does anyone ever bring up the state of mental health in this country?? Only a few and they're ignored for the most part, instead we have have the same stupid gun debate OVER AND OVER AGAIN. I think about the media should try looking at the root of the problem for once.
THIS.
While I do think that guns are way too easy for disturbed individuals to get ahold of, I will adamantly concur that the main issue here is America's devastating lack of any kind of support network, due to the stigmatizing of "pansies". I mean, men and women have equal access to firearms, but gun violence, especially on this scale, is almost exclusively a "guy thing". People try to draw parallels with these incidents to drug use or religion or video games or political leanings, but no one ever seems to point out the obvious fact that they're all men.
Why, though? Is it because of how society raises men? That we teach them that they have to suppress their emotions and never let anyone else know they're in pain, because they're men and therefore shouldn't feel pain, anyway? Is it because we equate "seeking help" with "weakness" and scowl upon any man who admits that he's in trouble and needs support? Is it because of the loud screaming that all "real Americans" are completely self-made and should require no help from anyone to succeed? And that if you don't live up to all of this, then you're worthless scum worthy of ridicule and deserve every bad thing that happens to you as punishment for your lack of American manhood?
It seems worthy to note that everyone always touts out statistics about how all the other first-world nations have fewer guns, but there's also the fact that all the other first-world nations also have subsidized access to health care, including mental health.
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America has been having this "discussion" for 100 years. Every time this happens there is the usual hand wringing and chest beating and then everything returns to how it was. Nothing will be done because the the gun lobby is far too powerful to allow anything to be done. The only thing you can hope for is that it doesn't happen to you or yours because anything more than that is simply out of the question.
Americans are allowed to own guns. It's in the constitution. The End.
I get irked by people who say things like; "we should have done something years ago". While I partially agree, I say partially due to them meaning gun control laws. The real issue is mental health, and this has been pointed out many times. The question is when it will actually be discussed instead of ignored.
This is like when people want more gun control, ignoring that bats and similar objects are used in murders more than guns. Or those who claim the world is more and more dangerous while ignoring that crime is down significantly in the last 15-20 years. Does that mean we should ignore this and do nothing? Of course not, but we need to be smart about this and not go with the initial emotional response. Those wanting to ban guns, this will not prevent events like this. Nor will every teacher in the school having a gun help in prevention.
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Did you notice 0bama's fake crocodile tears at the press conference? He was rubbing the outside of his eyes, when, in fact, tear ducts are located at the inside of the eye. He wasted no time in reaffirming his support of an assault weapons ban. The only problem is, the "assault weapon" found in the trunk of the shooters car was not used in the shooting. 0bama is dancing on the graves of the innocent in order to advance his leftist agenda.
Oh. My. God. You. Fucking. Assholes.
At least one RR member said to leave Obama out of this. I'm expecting them to be banned any time now.
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Did you notice 0bama's fake crocodile tears at the press conference? He was rubbing the outside of his eyes, when, in fact, tear ducts are located at the inside of the eye. He wasted no time in reaffirming his support of an assault weapons ban. The only problem is, the "assault weapon" found in the trunk of the shooters car was not used in the shooting. 0bama is dancing on the graves of the innocent in order to advance his leftist agenda.
Oh. My. God. You. Fucking. Assholes.
At least one RR member said to leave Obama out of this. I'm expecting them to be banned any time now.
This asshole sure has one shiny mirror. Apparently they have never cried before either.
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While I wouldn't be surprised if Obama didn't actually cry, the "evidence" is ridiculous. Plus, every politician who speaks publicly on the subject is trying to advance their agenda. Every last one of them. Its their gorram job.
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Because we took GOD out of the schools (http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/huckabee-schools-place-of-carnage-because-we-systematically). Shut up, Fuckabee.
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(http://25.media.tumblr.com/2f280050e16e8c77cd50d6de73efd851/tumblr_mf1rys83bT1rn72mxo1_r1_500.jpg)
"
Rise of the Guardians fanart drawn in remembrance of the victims.
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I get irked by people who say things like; "we should have done something years ago". While I partially agree, I say partially due to them meaning gun control laws. The real issue is mental health, and this has been pointed out many times. The question is when it will actually be discussed instead of ignored.
This is like when people want more gun control, ignoring that bats and similar objects are used in murders more than guns. Or those who claim the world is more and more dangerous while ignoring that crime is down significantly in the last 15-20 years. Does that mean we should ignore this and do nothing? Of course not, but we need to be smart about this and not go with the initial emotional response. Those wanting to ban guns, this will not prevent events like this. Nor will every teacher in the school having a gun help in prevention.
Do you really think it would be possible to kill 26 people with a bat and then beat yourself to death with it as well?
Even in countries that have very strict gun control this kind of thing happens occasionally. The operative word here is "occasionally". Unfortunately America does not have any realistic gun control hence the outrages happen at a far greater occurence than any other western nation and far greater than any other western nation would tolerate without doing something about the real cause. The availability of weapons to the population.
As for this mental health argument. It doesn't stand up. How can you know when someone is going to go nuts with a gun? Some guy has a row with his wife, loses his job, gets picked on. Just about anything or nothing can cause this sort of thing. It cannot be predicted. But what can be predicted is that the less guns there are then the less massacres there will be.
You can never completely eliminate this kind of thing but you can minimise if you have the will to do so. But I don't think America has the will and I doubt if even the death of 20 children will change that fact.
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Mass Effect caused the shootings (http://i.imgur.com/XMOgZ.png)
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Mass Effect caused the shootings (http://i.imgur.com/XMOgZ.png)
I looked at the thread that's on, and I like one persons response to the idiots blaming the game:
"The killer ate bread! BAN BREAD!!"
People REALLY need to stop using the media as an excuse for people losing it and going on shooting sprees and look that close at our society itself and why it's happening in the first place.
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Mass Effect caused the shootings (http://i.imgur.com/XMOgZ.png)
I looked at the thread that's on, and I like one persons response to the idiots blaming the game:
"The killer ate bread! BAN BREAD!!"
People REALLY need to stop using the media as an excuse for people losing it and going on shooting sprees and look that close at our society itself and why it's happening in the first place.
Catcher in the Rye murdered John Lennon!
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Even in countries that have very strict gun control this kind of thing happens occasionally. The operative word here is "occasionally". Unfortunately America does not have any realistic gun control hence the outrages happen at a far greater occurence than any other western nation and far greater than any other western nation would tolerate without doing something about the real cause. The availability of weapons to the population.
As for this mental health argument. It doesn't stand up. How can you know when someone is going to go nuts with a gun? Some guy has a row with his wife, loses his job, gets picked on. Just about anything or nothing can cause this sort of thing. It cannot be predicted. But what can be predicted is that the less guns there are then the less massacres there will be.
You can never completely eliminate this kind of thing but you can minimise if you have the will to do so. But I don't think America has the will and I doubt if even the death of 20 children will change that fact.
No, the problem is that we have a culture that says the way a real man solves problems is with a gun. God forbid, we say it's ok for men to get any kind of mental health help or suggest that picking up gun may not be the right answer. Not to mention pro-gun advocate groups in this country tend to favor the right wing "I got mine, fuck everyone else" attitude, and overall don't give two shits about the unstable individuals that may get their hands on a gun.
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Mass Effect caused the shootings (http://i.imgur.com/XMOgZ.png)
I looked at the thread that's on, and I like one persons response to the idiots blaming the game:
"The killer ate bread! BAN BREAD!!"
People REALLY need to stop using the media as an excuse for people losing it and going on shooting sprees and look that close at our society itself and why it's happening in the first place.
Catcher in the Rye murdered John Lennon!
Once upon a time I've actually heard someone claim that the "The Beatles are bigger than Jesus" statement (which may not have actually been said by John Lennon ever) and that his killing was "religiously motivated."
I'm not really buying that statement since I doubt it's true.
What's also funny (though disquieting) is I was thinking of playing the first Mass Effect for the first time today.
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This is just...goddamn, I'm saving the discussion for after the burials. I think the Onion summed it up quite nicely (NSFW Language): http://www.theonion.com/articles/fuck-everything-nation-reports,30743/
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They summed it up nicely twice.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/report-it-okay-to-spend-rest-of-day-curled-in-feta,30741/ (http://www.theonion.com/articles/report-it-okay-to-spend-rest-of-day-curled-in-feta,30741/)
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This is just...goddamn, I'm saving the discussion for after the burials. I think the Onion summed it up quite nicely (NSFW Language): http://www.theonion.com/articles/fuck-everything-nation-reports,30743/
Make that around the world...
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I've mentioned before that I'm a teacher's kid, so this sort of thing hits way, way too close to home for me. I was still growing up when Columbine happened, and now this? I called my dad, who taught me twice in the course of my school years, middle school and high school, today, just to tell him I love him. He didn't sound like he was in much better shape emotionally than I have been.
... I just don't know what to say.
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Is it just me, or does it seem like the people who love to jack off to guns are the ones who are a lot more vocal when shit like this happen than people who'd like to restrict guns or something similar?
I swear, the gun cummers are fucking paranoid. What's worse is there's the people who think that MORE guns will magically solve everything. At the risk of sounding tasteless, tell that to the victims of Fort Hood. Those guys not only HAD guns, but were trained how to use them. The guy who went on the rampage STILL managed to kill 13 people and wound 29 more!
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/05/national/main5539067.shtml
Of course, facts like that are irrelevant to these people. Why ruin the mood when they're so close to jizzing all over that gun stock?
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the gun cummers
I'm so stealing this term, it has a nice sound to it.
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At the risk of sounding tasteless, tell that to the victims of Fort Hood. Those guys not only HAD guns, but were trained how to use them. The guy who went on the rampage STILL managed to kill 13 people and wound 29 more!
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/05/national/main5539067.shtml
Of course, facts like that are irrelevant to these people. Why ruin the mood when they're so close to jizzing all over that gun stock?
Fort Hood? You mean the military base? A military base where, unlike popular belief, soldiers are not allowed to carry their personal weapons and ammo with them when they're not being trained at the firing range and have to keep the guns and ammo locked away in the armory and were, by and large, unarmed? That Fort Hood?
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Damen's right. I can count on one hand how many people I'd see with an open pistol or assault rifle whenever I'd go on base.
They were usually the MP (military police). Otherwise, your weapon was locked up. You don't carry your service weapons on you for day-to-day activities. You might keep it in a drawer in your office (MAYBE) but you don't actively carry it on you. Unless you just got back from the range. Or you have MP to your name. Or you're transporting something or you're doing weapon testing. Otherwise...
Common misconception that everyone on a military base is carrying an active weapon. They do it during active war-time in CONUS/OCONUS (Continental/outer continental US) as far as I'm aware but not now.
EDIT- Just spoke with dad to refresh my memory and only those in active combat zones (Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.,) wear their service weapons on them at all times. But this is an obvious thing.
As for Fort Hood, the ones who actually brought down the guy?
...you guessed it, the military police with their service weapons.
Also, you can't compare Fort Hood with this shooting. One was an act of terrorism, the other was... monstrous killing of children.
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Also, you can't compare Fort Hood with this shooting. One was an act of terrorism, the other was... monstrous killing of children.
How was Fort Hood an act of terrorism?
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How...was it not?
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It was an attack on a military base. Generally it is not considered terrorism if the target is a military base/personnel.
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USS Cole disagrees with you.
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Okay, you guys made your point. It still doesn't justify having everyone carry guns, unless they have proper training. If we apply this to schools, then it should be the school districts paying for the security firm or training of security officials. That's gonna take money and care to implement with minimal risk.
That is to say, I can admit that I'm wrong, but it doesn't validate the gun fetishists that seem to think that everyone should have guns.
Also, although I suppose that even if you argue that teachers/security officers having guns is a good idea for schools, there is the risk that someone will fuck up and mistakenly shoot someone because they think they're doing wrong when their not. I suppose what I'm saying is that deadly force should be a last resort, and that training/regular mental evaluations would be needed. Also, keeping the guns themselves secure would have to be a great priority. I dunno. It's kinda funny in a way that some of the same people pushing guns also have paranoia about the government having guns. Having armed teachers would be just that, though.
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Okay, you guys made your point. It still doesn't justify having everyone carry guns, unless they have proper training. If we apply this to schools, then it should be the school districts paying for the security firm or training of security officials. That's gonna take money and care to implement with minimal risk.
That is to say, I can admit that I'm wrong, but it doesn't validate the gun fetishists that seem to think that everyone should have guns.
No where have I said nor can I ever see myself saying that everyone should have a gun. The simple fact is there are some people out there who I wouldn't trust with a potato gun. And I find people who think everyone everywhere should be armed to be...as naive as a reactionary 'blame guns' type of person. That said, I am still a staunch supporter of the 2nd Amendment and for the ability of responsible, stable adults to be able to own firearms if they wish. Yes, even semiautomatic rifles.
However I won't deny that something in this country has to be done, but what I have been hearing more this time than any other time is the idea of better screening for mental health problems so we can hopefully catch these people before they get to the point that they think it's a good idea to kill as many people as they can via whatever means they can think of.
I'm just hoping that maybe we can find a way to figure out who's at risk of doing this so we can catch them early on.
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Okay, you guys made your point. It still doesn't justify having everyone carry guns, unless they have proper training. If we apply this to schools, then it should be the school districts paying for the security firm or training of security officials. That's gonna take money and care to implement with minimal risk.
That is to say, I can admit that I'm wrong, but it doesn't validate the gun fetishists that seem to think that everyone should have guns.
No where have I said nor can I ever see myself saying that everyone should have a gun. The simple fact is there are some people out there who I wouldn't trust with a potato gun. And I find people who think everyone everywhere should be armed to be...as naive as a reactionary 'blame guns' type of person. That said, I am still a staunch supporter of the 2nd Amendment and for the ability of responsible, stable adults to be able to own firearms if they wish. Yes, even semiautomatic rifles.
However I won't deny that something in this country has to be done, but what I have been hearing more this time than any other time is the idea of better screening for mental health problems so we can hopefully catch these people before they get to the point that they think it's a good idea to kill as many people as they can via whatever means they can think of.
I'm just hoping that maybe we can find a way to figure out who's at risk of doing this so we can catch them early on.
I never said you were a gun fetishist. You were correcting me on a very specific point, not screaming "GUNS!1111!!11ELEVENTYTHOUSAND!" Okay, I know gun fetishists don't do that, but some of the more extreme ones might as well be doing so.
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I've heard the argument that guns are easily as common in Switzerland as they are in the United States, and their country doesn't have as many gun related crimes as we do. After doing an admittedly small amount of research on the subject however, it seems like they also have much better training and education when it comes to guns as well as, I'm assuming, better access to mental healthcare.
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I've heard the argument that guns are easily as common in Switzerland as they are in the United States, and their country doesn't have as many gun related crimes as we do. After doing an admittedly small amount of research on the subject however, it seems like they also have much better training and education when it comes to guns as well as, I'm assuming, better access to mental healthcare.
As far as I know, they do and they also have better access to healthcare (universal) and a generally better standard of living as well from what I've heard.
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I've heard the argument that guns are easily as common in Switzerland as they are in the United States, and their country doesn't have as many gun related crimes as we do. After doing an admittedly small amount of research on the subject however, it seems like they also have much better training and education when it comes to guns as well as, I'm assuming, better access to mental healthcare.
As far as I know, they do and they also have better access to healthcare (universal) and a generally better standard of living as well from what I've heard.
I see. Maybe we should study their approach better and try to implement it here.
Also, the WBC is doing what you probably expected (http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/14x1d6/the_westboro_baptist_church_says_they_will_be/) Yes, I got the info from Reddit. I'm not linking anyone to their stupid website.
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I've heard the argument that guns are easily as common in Switzerland as they are in the United States, and their country doesn't have as many gun related crimes as we do. After doing an admittedly small amount of research on the subject however, it seems like they also have much better training and education when it comes to guns as well as, I'm assuming, better access to mental healthcare.
As far as I know, they do and they also have better access to healthcare (universal) and a generally better standard of living as well from what I've heard.
Another difference between Switzerland and the United States is that the former has a universal draft. The only reason why citizens are permitted to keep guns and ammunition in their homes is because they are a part of the state militia and receive military training.
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I've heard the argument that guns are easily as common in Switzerland as they are in the United States, and their country doesn't have as many gun related crimes as we do. After doing an admittedly small amount of research on the subject however, it seems like they also have much better training and education when it comes to guns as well as, I'm assuming, better access to mental healthcare.
As far as I know, they do and they also have better access to healthcare (universal) and a generally better standard of living as well from what I've heard.
I see. Maybe we should study their approach better and try to implement it here.
Also, the WBC is doing what you probably expected (http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/14x1d6/the_westboro_baptist_church_says_they_will_be/) Yes, I got the info from Reddit. I'm not linking anyone to their stupid website.
*twitch* *screams in her pillow for ten minutes before coming up for air*
...no, that's not going to do it....
*trashes the fuck out of her apartment while screaming obscenities about the WBC*
As if protesting the funerals of soldiers and homosexuals wasn't disgusting enough!
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I'm so sick of this shit. :'(
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Naturally, there will be attempts made to block the WBC from protesting. Naturally, the ACLU will intervene on the WBC's behalf in court (if governmental methods are attempted), and naturally, the WBC will win.
Doesn't make it any less vile, but that's the cost of freedom of speech and expression.
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Also, the WBC is doing what you probably expected (http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/14x1d6/the_westboro_baptist_church_says_they_will_be/) Yes, I got the info from Reddit. I'm not linking anyone to their stupid website.
*sigh* I should have known they'd be up to their usual tricks, I almost forgot about them. The only thing that surprises me about the WBC is that it has taken this long to hear that they're going to Newtown to spew their usual hatred of others.
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Naturally, there will be attempts made to block the WBC from protesting. Naturally, the ACLU will intervene on the WBC's behalf in court (if governmental methods are attempted), and naturally, the WBC will win.
Doesn't make it any less vile, but that's the cost of freedom of speech and expression.
ACLU won't touch them. They can and will defend themselves. Or are you not aware that they are a clan of lawyers who are only into this for money?
Also they were saying they were protesting 5 seconds after the shooting happened. So they didn't even have the decency to hold off for a few days before saying they're going to intrude on people grieving. This is just par for the course for 'em.
Ironbite-course...this might be the protest we see someone on their side get shot.
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Maybe we can split this topic so we don't sully an otherwise mourning thread with WBC douchebaggery?
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Now Victoria Jackson (no idea who she is but she must be someone famous in America) is claiming that this massacre is no worse than abortion.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/victoria-jackson-connecticut-school-shooting_n_2303518.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/victoria-jackson-connecticut-school-shooting_n_2303518.html)
You really cannot make this shit up.
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Do you ever get the impression that if Osama Bin Laden had realised just how capable the US was of destroying itself from with in, he wouldn't have bothered with 9/11?
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Now Victoria Jackson (no idea who she is but she must be someone famous in America) is claiming that this massacre is no worse than abortion.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/victoria-jackson-connecticut-school-shooting_n_2303518.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/victoria-jackson-connecticut-school-shooting_n_2303518.html)
You really cannot make this shit up.
I...I just...I want...
...you know what, fuck it. Victoria Jackson: you're a cunt.
I'm done.
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Naturally, there will be attempts made to block the WBC from protesting. Naturally, the ACLU will intervene on the WBC's behalf in court (if governmental methods are attempted), and naturally, the WBC will win.
Doesn't make it any less vile, but that's the cost of freedom of speech and expression.
ACLU won't touch them. They can and will defend themselves. Or are you not aware that they are a clan of lawyers who are only into this for money?
Also they were saying they were protesting 5 seconds after the shooting happened. So they didn't even have the decency to hold off for a few days before saying they're going to intrude on people grieving. This is just par for the course for 'em.
Ironbite-course...this might be the protest we see someone on their side get shot.
I'm aware that most WBC members are lawyers. Nonetheless:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/22/AR2006072200643.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/22/AR2006072200643.html)
http://www.aclu.org/free-speech/aclu-eastern-missouri-applauds-decision-free-speech-case (http://www.aclu.org/free-speech/aclu-eastern-missouri-applauds-decision-free-speech-case)
http://www.militarytimes.com/news/2009/01/ap_mo_funeralban_010909w/ (http://www.militarytimes.com/news/2009/01/ap_mo_funeralban_010909w/)
https://acluva.org/7388/on-hate-speech-the-westboro-baptist-church-campuses-and-nazis-in-virginia/ (https://acluva.org/7388/on-hate-speech-the-westboro-baptist-church-campuses-and-nazis-in-virginia/)
http://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech-lgbt-rights/why-fred-phelpss-free-speech-rights-should-matter-us-all (http://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech-lgbt-rights/why-fred-phelpss-free-speech-rights-should-matter-us-all)
They've also defended the KKK:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/14/aclu-sues-georgia-in-kkk-litter-program-fight/ (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/14/aclu-sues-georgia-in-kkk-litter-program-fight/)
And neo-Nazis:
http://www.acluohio.org/conference2010/handouts/nspavskokie-2010_07conf.pdf (http://www.acluohio.org/conference2010/handouts/nspavskokie-2010_07conf.pdf)
And more generally: http://www.aclu.org/free-speech/aclu-statement-defending-free-speech-unpopular-organizations (http://www.aclu.org/free-speech/aclu-statement-defending-free-speech-unpopular-organizations)
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Now Victoria Jackson (no idea who she is but she must be someone famous in America) is claiming that this massacre is no worse than abortion.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/victoria-jackson-connecticut-school-shooting_n_2303518.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/victoria-jackson-connecticut-school-shooting_n_2303518.html)
You really cannot make this shit up.
........................
Ironbite-fuck you Victoria Jackson.
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That said...free speech is free speech. The WBC is allowed to protest whatever the hell they want. I just wish they weren't so free from the consequences of their actions.
Ironbite-this might be the one that gets them all killed...or sued for emotional damage.
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The WBC is scum, that's all I have left to say.
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No scum has some morals they are below scum.
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Anonymous to the rescue (sort of) (http://www.inquisitr.com/440545/anonymous-hacks-the-westboro-baptist-church-posts-all-their-personal-information/)
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Anonymous to the rescue (sort of) (http://www.inquisitr.com/440545/anonymous-hacks-the-westboro-baptist-church-posts-all-their-personal-information/)
Cool.
But for my money, the WBC has every right to protest. They just don't have any right to be taken seriously, and they don't have any right to go beyond that.
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Your right to swing your arms ends just where the other man's nose begins.
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Now Victoria Jackson (no idea who she is but she must be someone famous in America) is claiming that this massacre is no worse than abortion.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/victoria-jackson-connecticut-school-shooting_n_2303518.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/victoria-jackson-connecticut-school-shooting_n_2303518.html)
You really cannot make this shit up.
Considering the thing she's most famous for right now is her melodramatic tweets about Obama winning, I'm not too surprised.
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It was an attack on a military base. Generally it is not considered terrorism if the target is a military base/personnel.
Yes it was. The guy who did it was an Islamic terrorist. But whatever. This thread is for Sandy Hooks.
Either way, here's an actual hero (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16/victoria-soto-newtown-tea_n_2311762.html).
This school teacher put her students before herself. Using quick thinking she actually hid them where she could then lied to the shooter about where they were.
The details are sketchy, of course. But at least half of it is true. Considering none of her children were harmed and she lies dead.
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Anonymous to the rescue (sort of) (http://www.inquisitr.com/440545/anonymous-hacks-the-westboro-baptist-church-posts-all-their-personal-information/)
Heh heh heh. I was just waiting for this to happen...
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Can't people just find out exactly where the WBC would stand to do their protesting, get their first, and physically block them? I don't mean physically as in pushing them back, but if they're standing there, the WBC can't. So unless they stood in the middle of the street (which I believe is illegal), they wouldn't be able to get near the funerals.
And they couldn't sue because the people are doing exactly what they're doing.
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I know this is somewhat off topic, but:
I've heard the argument that guns are easily as common in Switzerland as they are in the United States, and their country doesn't have as many gun related crimes as we do. After doing an admittedly small amount of research on the subject however, it seems like they also have much better training and education when it comes to guns as well as, I'm assuming, better access to mental healthcare.
As far as I know, they do and they also have better access to healthcare (universal) and a generally better standard of living as well from what I've heard.
If there is one thing about the United States of America that pisses me off to no end to where I am ashamed to be an American myself, it is how far the public's heads are in their asses about Universal Healthcare and socialized medicine, simply because very few people have outgrown the days where anything that has to do with Socialism/Communism is evil (even Worker Activism). "Death panels?" Sensationalist rubbish. "Unnecessary Taxes?" To all those Tea-Party or whatever other spongers who have a serious tax-phobia, living in a democratic nation with good living standards isn't free and never will be, so grow some balls and pay your fucking taxes. There is no reason and there should be no more excuses to why we don't have Universal Healthcare anymore.
And no, I am not going to say a damn word about those assholes who attend the Westboro Baptist Church and some shallow bitch who likened the murder of living children who were loved and cherished by their families to... I've already talked about how much I passionately despise the pro-natalist/anti-abortion/anti-choice movement with every inch of fiber in my body and how disgusting the tragedy trivializations from these organizations and their activists are. Freedom of speech? Sure? Do they come with consequences that will alienate these groups who are daring and brave enough to say anything that is incredibly stupid and tasteless? No doubt about it.
/yet another rant, simply because I really needed to get this shit off my chest.
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Can't people just find out exactly where the WBC would stand to do their protesting, get their first, and physically block them? I don't mean physically as in pushing them back, but if they're standing there, the WBC can't. So unless they stood in the middle of the street (which I believe is illegal), they wouldn't be able to get near the funerals.
And they couldn't sue because the people are doing exactly what they're doing.
There have been people who have done that very thing. Blocked the WBC from getting near.
Also, in addition to the story I posted above there's a whitehouse.org petition to give the lady the Medal of Freedom posthumously (https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/award-medal-freedom-victoria-soto/XrsSn2zG). It's on par with the Medal of Honor which, if she were military she would've received most definitely thanks to her actions.
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The church tends to get pretty sue happy when anyone gets too close to them, it's usually best just to form a barrier between them and the families. Also, I'm for making a thread devoted specifically to the WBC's planned activities if it will keep this one from getting too cluttered.
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I have one thing to say to anyone who is using the Connecticut school shootings to prove a political point, either pro-gun or anti-gun, blaming video games or even the conservatives or Obama or religion or no religion: FUCK YOU. 27 adults and children died this morning; it shouldn't matter what your creed or politics are, only that there are so many fucking corpses in CT at the moment from this one tragedy that the state law enforcement people need to bring in more coroners to help them. So show a bit of human decency and save the arguments for after the kids are buried, okay?
I posted that on Facebook.
Imagine if the US treated other preventable disasters as unpolitical. September 11? Don't talk about counter-terrorism, that would just politicise it and insult the victims. A mass outbreak of disease? Don't talk about vaccination, that would politicise it. Show some human decency, note down your sorrow, and do nothing.
It is entirely decent to respond to a preventable tragedy by trying to prevent it. If you don't like the proven procedure for preventing future tragedies of the same sort, that's fine, but I get to disagree with you without being called indecent. In fact, it is indecent to see this happen and do what you advocate.
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I have one thing to say to anyone who is using the Connecticut school shootings to prove a political point, either pro-gun or anti-gun, blaming video games or even the conservatives or Obama or religion or no religion: FUCK YOU. 27 adults and children died this morning; it shouldn't matter what your creed or politics are, only that there are so many fucking corpses in CT at the moment from this one tragedy that the state law enforcement people need to bring in more coroners to help them. So show a bit of human decency and save the arguments for after the kids are buried, okay?
I posted that on Facebook.
Imagine if the US treated other preventable disasters as unpolitical. September 11? Don't talk about counter-terrorism, that would just politicise it and insult the victims. A mass outbreak of disease? Don't talk about vaccination, that would politicise it. Show some human decency, note down your sorrow, and do nothing.
It is entirely decent to respond to a preventable tragedy by trying to prevent it. If you don't like the proven procedure for preventing future tragedies of the same sort, that's fine, but I get to disagree with you without being called indecent. In fact, it is indecent to see this happen and do what you advocate.
Well, to be fair, there's tactful ways to talk about it. Sometimes it's hard to see people talk about it without getting the feeling that they're being vultures with kneejerk reactions.
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I have one thing to say to anyone who is using the Connecticut school shootings to prove a political point, either pro-gun or anti-gun, blaming video games or even the conservatives or Obama or religion or no religion: FUCK YOU. 27 adults and children died this morning; it shouldn't matter what your creed or politics are, only that there are so many fucking corpses in CT at the moment from this one tragedy that the state law enforcement people need to bring in more coroners to help them. So show a bit of human decency and save the arguments for after the kids are buried, okay?
I posted that on Facebook.
Imagine if the US treated other preventable disasters as unpolitical. September 11? Don't talk about counter-terrorism, that would just politicise it and insult the victims. A mass outbreak of disease? Don't talk about vaccination, that would politicise it. Show some human decency, note down your sorrow, and do nothing.
It is entirely decent to respond to a preventable tragedy by trying to prevent it. If you don't like the proven procedure for preventing future tragedies of the same sort, that's fine, but I get to disagree with you without being called indecent. In fact, it is indecent to see this happen and do what you advocate.
...Point completely lost but I'm not going to be drawn into an argument with you.
I'm all for reasonable, rational discussion on something like this. Unfortunately, the same old reactionary talking points have been pulled out on both sides. Instead of going 'WHAAARGBLE' about whatever we believe in, how about we have an intelligent conversation about mental health care, education about guns, and support for the victims' families?
The outrage this incident provoked should encourage action to make sure something like this can be avoided. Unfortunately, most people are more interested in playing the blame game than waiting until that first initial surge of emotion has happened and then discussing it.
I'm not advocating standing around and wringing your hands, bleating about sorrow and doing nothing. I am advocating that we avoid the blame game both sides have indulged in (though the right's been doing more of that, I'll concede).
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I have one thing to say to anyone who is using the Connecticut school shootings to prove a political point, either pro-gun or anti-gun, blaming video games or even the conservatives or Obama or religion or no religion: FUCK YOU. 27 adults and children died this morning; it shouldn't matter what your creed or politics are, only that there are so many fucking corpses in CT at the moment from this one tragedy that the state law enforcement people need to bring in more coroners to help them. So show a bit of human decency and save the arguments for after the kids are buried, okay?
I posted that on Facebook.
Imagine if the US treated other preventable disasters as unpolitical. September 11? Don't talk about counter-terrorism, that would just politicise it and insult the victims. A mass outbreak of disease? Don't talk about vaccination, that would politicise it. Show some human decency, note down your sorrow, and do nothing.
It is entirely decent to respond to a preventable tragedy by trying to prevent it. If you don't like the proven procedure for preventing future tragedies of the same sort, that's fine, but I get to disagree with you without being called indecent. In fact, it is indecent to see this happen and do what you advocate.
...Point completely lost but I'm not going to be drawn into an argument with you.
I'm all for reasonable, rational discussion on something like this. Unfortunately, the same old reactionary talking points have been pulled out on both sides. Instead of going 'WHAAARGBLE' about whatever we believe in, how about we have an intelligent conversation about mental health care, education about guns, and support for the victims' families?
Because there is an easy, simple, proven solution that will actually solve the problem. If you don't want to try that, that's fine, but don't accuse me of indecency for trying to prevent a massacre of children in the aftermath of a massacre of children.
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Because there is an easy, simple, proven solution that will actually solve the problem. If you don't want to try that, that's fine, but don't accuse me of indecency for trying to prevent a massacre of children in the aftermath of a massacre of children.
...I'm not saying that. In fact, I'm saying we need to work past the easy blame game and try to have an intelligent, reasoned, rational conversation about it. Not using easy political points scoring or soundbites but saying and doing things which are hard but necessary.
It's a sad but simple reality that America has a love affair with guns. Instead of screaming 'take away all guns' or blaming lack of God in the schools for this happening, how about we go 'a guy with issues got his hands on a gun. How about we work to a) help people like Adam Lanza and his family get the help they need, b) educate people on guns and work out reasonable (whatever's deemed so) restrictions on weapons, and c) deal with the greater societal problems which affected both gunman and will affect the victims' families?'
How about we go for 'action', not 'reaction'?
I wasn't implying you were indecent in any way, shape or form. That post was written after seeing several dozen images and Facebook statuses blaming everything and everyone for what happened... on both sides of the political spectrum. It was written in the heat of my own outrage. Should I have waited a few hours? Probably. Do I stand by what I said? Yes.
This will be my final post on the matter and I hope it clarifies a few things.
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I think we are well past the point at which gun control will do any good. There are almost as many firearms in the USA as there are people, and there is already a black market which is probably at least as large as the legal one.
Better access to psychiatric care (and, yes, universal health care) would probably make scenarios like this less likely, but wouldn't prevent them entirely.
Perhaps better police coverage in schools is needed. Perhaps that's the only thing we can do at this point.
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Fred, STFU. No one was even fucking talking to you and you're taking a general message as a personal affront/attack. There's no point. Leave Morgen alone. She wasn't attacking you so cool your tits.
Leave this thread for updates dealing with the massacre (like what I've been posting lately), if you will. Make periphery threads about your various and sundry arguments but at least keep this one clear of clutter.
All I ask. I don't care what you talk about in other threads but I'd prefer if this one is general updates about the massacre.
Speaking of updates, a list of the names of the children (http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/national_world&id=8921744). Because we should remember the victims more than the perpetrator. Because we should know more about the victims than we end up remembering about the perpetrator.
All six adults killed at the school were women. Of the 20 children who were shot to death, eight were boys and 12 were girls. All the children were ages 6 or 7.
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Oh, hi, Neil. (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/12/16/f-rfa-macdonald-guns.html)
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Putting offical weight behind Shep on this one. If you wanna bitch about gun control or related topics, keep it to the thread I had to split out of the political cartoons thread.
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You know who's to blame?? Schools for teaching about evolution and gays (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/12/17/tennessee-pastor-mass-shootings-because-schools-teach-evolution-and-how-to-be-a-homo/).
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You know who's to blame?? Schools for teaching about evolution and gays (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/12/17/tennessee-pastor-mass-shootings-because-schools-teach-evolution-and-how-to-be-a-homo/).
I've seen a lot of this lately, as to be expected. Yet every story I read on this, I lose more and more trust in humanity. >.>
It probably doesn't help that my area is nut job religious.
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I'm glad people are trying to help out any way they can.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/golden-retrievers-sent-comfort-newtown-survivors-220213316.html (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/golden-retrievers-sent-comfort-newtown-survivors-220213316.html)
(http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/K8o0ddQrg6Ky6O5OFxq17g--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/thelookout/goldens.jpg)
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You know who's to blame?? Schools for teaching about evolution and gays (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/12/17/tennessee-pastor-mass-shootings-because-schools-teach-evolution-and-how-to-be-a-homo/).
I have to wonder what this guy thinks was to blame before schools started teaching about evolution and gays. Because there's been school violence long before that.
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http://ca.news.yahoo.com/video/abc-faking-death-save-her-080000584.html
This is one VERY lucky and fast thinking little girl. The sole survivor in her class because she played dead. I have a feeling she's going to be in therapy for the rest of her life, though... :(
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http://ca.news.yahoo.com/video/abc-faking-death-save-her-080000584.html
This is one VERY lucky and fast thinking little girl. The sole survivor in her class because she played dead. I have a feeling she's going to be in therapy for the rest of her life, though... :(
Yeah....this was for me the most gut wrenching news of all.
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I'm glad people are trying to help out any way they can.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/golden-retrievers-sent-comfort-newtown-survivors-220213316.html (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/golden-retrievers-sent-comfort-newtown-survivors-220213316.html)
(http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/K8o0ddQrg6Ky6O5OFxq17g--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/thelookout/goldens.jpg)
Puppies!
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/video/abc-faking-death-save-her-080000584.html
This is one VERY lucky and fast thinking little girl. The sole survivor in her class because she played dead. I have a feeling she's going to be in therapy for the rest of her life, though... :(
Yeah... I knew there had to be at least one kid who'd think of that. Poor kid, tho.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2250160/West-Kearns-Elementary-Student-gun-classmate-s-head-parents-encouraged-protection.html
Ladies and gentlemen, this is possibly the stupidest thing any parent could encourage their child to do. A sixth grader brought a .22 caliber handgun to school, and held it up to two of his classmates head. The parents gave him the gun to defend himself to protect himself in the event another school shooting occurred. I mean... seriously, THIS is the parents solution?!
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I carry a knife with me when I go out in public but that's way, way different.
No fuckin' way would I let my kid take a gun to school. And I'd have put his ass in juvie for pullin' that with his classmates.
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Who was it that suggested arming 7 year olds with guns again?
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Wow, parenting fail right there folks.
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I might be adding to a detail already mentioned, but here goes:
His mother was at her wits end and was going to have him committed because his behavior. He was angry about it, so he shot her dead. Then, because he was convinced that she loved those kids at school more than him, he went to the school and gunned them down. While he had been diagonosed with Asperger's, it will be wrong to say that Aspies are more prone to violence. His mother let it go on for too long. In America, it depends entirely on which state you live in as to what kind of services you can access for help and direction. And when times get tough, we all know that in the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave that you don't get help because if you can't afford it because that's what you deserve for not working hard enough.
What I'm really trying to say here (and I know I'm doing a terrible job of it) is that this is definitely a mark for improved social services, not the banning of firearms.
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So the NRA's back. (http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/news-from-nra-ila/2012/12/important-statement-from-the-national-rifle-association.aspx?s=&st=&ps=)
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More input from the rapturds:
http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?182690-Elementary-School-Shooting-in-Connecticut-Memorial/page13
There is a dear woman who used her own body as a shield to protect these precious little ones. My heart breaks for this one. If anyone deserved a weapon to defend them, that woman is it.
Godspeed to her and her family. I pray she was saved, it takes an outstanding character to do what she did.
I am so glad this little girl is in heaven right now. I am sad to say her parents are from the LDS denomination from Ogden, Utah which is where they moved from 8 months ago.
Can't you just imagine the hypothetical conversation between God and the girl?
Girl: "Where's the teacher who tried to save us? When are Mommy and Daddy going to get here?"
God: "Sorry kiddo, they're going to burn in Hell forever with your murderer."
Girl: "But why?"
God: "They don't worship me the right way so you're never going to see them again. Because I said so."
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What I'm really trying to say here (and I know I'm doing a terrible job of it) is that this is definitely a mark for improved social services, not the banning of firearms.
So what percentage of the nearly 30,000 americans shot dead annually would be alive today if there were "improved social services"? The lengths and graping at straws gun "enthusiasts" will go to to avoid curbs on gun ownership never ceases to amaze me.
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What I'm really trying to say here (and I know I'm doing a terrible job of it) is that this is definitely a mark for improved social services, not the banning of firearms.
So what percentage of the nearly 30,000 americans shot dead annually would be alive today if there were "improved social services"? The lengths and graping at straws gun "enthusiasts" will go to to avoid curbs on gun ownership never ceases to amaze me.
Any life saved from new regulations is worth it. You'd do well to remember that.
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The NRA is prepared to offer meaningful contributions to help make sure this never happens again.
You can start with with telling the politicians you support and bank roll they should start to actually give a shit about mental healthcare access in this country. I don't except this to happen, given that that's too socialist of an idea for them for most of them. Or at least you can start supporting the need for decent mental healthcare in this country.
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What I'm really trying to say here (and I know I'm doing a terrible job of it) is that this is definitely a mark for improved social services, not the banning of firearms.
So what percentage of the nearly 30,000 americans shot dead annually would be alive today if there were "improved social services"? The lengths and graping at straws gun "enthusiasts" will go to to avoid curbs on gun ownership never ceases to amaze me.
I must say, you've become quite annoying with your consistent anti-US nonsense. I haven't taken any sides on the gun debate, but there is a serious issue here in the US when it comes to social services and citizens' access to mental healthcare. If your insurance doesn't cover it, you're pretty much fucked, because therapists and psychiatrists are ridiculously expensive. Combine that with the stigma of seeing a mental health professional (especially for men) and you have a serious problem on your hands. Such a large percentage of people going completely untreated can contribute to the problem majorly, and denying that is naive.
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What I'm really trying to say here (and I know I'm doing a terrible job of it) is that this is definitely a mark for improved social services, not the banning of firearms.
So what percentage of the nearly 30,000 americans shot dead annually would be alive today if there were "improved social services"? The lengths and graping at straws gun "enthusiasts" will go to to avoid curbs on gun ownership never ceases to amaze me.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms
It's the United States of America we're talking about... NOT South Africa. Get your countries and statistics straight or you just make yourself look like an idiot.
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What I'm really trying to say here (and I know I'm doing a terrible job of it) is that this is definitely a mark for improved social services, not the banning of firearms.
So what percentage of the nearly 30,000 americans shot dead annually would be alive today if there were "improved social services"? The lengths and graping at straws gun "enthusiasts" will go to to avoid curbs on gun ownership never ceases to amaze me.
I must say, you've become quite annoying with your consistent anti-US nonsense.
How odd. I'm advocating for actions that I feel would, without doubt, lead to far less Americans being shot dead yet this is construed as anti American. If I was anti American would I not simply leave you to shoot each other?
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What I'm really trying to say here (and I know I'm doing a terrible job of it) is that this is definitely a mark for improved social services, not the banning of firearms.
So what percentage of the nearly 30,000 americans shot dead annually would be alive today if there were "improved social services"? The lengths and graping at straws gun "enthusiasts" will go to to avoid curbs on gun ownership never ceases to amaze me.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms
It's the United States of America we're talking about... NOT South Africa. Get your countries and statistics straight or you just make yourself look like an idiot.
Well leaving aside the third world countries for a moment I can swap sites with you all day long eg. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/14/chart-the-u-s-has-far-more-gun-related-killings-than-any-other-developed-country/
Although I think this site swapping is unlikely to get us anywhere.
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I must say, you've become quite annoying with your consistent anti-US nonsense.
How odd. I'm advocating for actions that I feel would, without doubt, lead to far less Americans being shot dead yet this is construed as anti American. If I was anti American would I not simply leave you to shoot each other?
I'm perfectly fine with constructive criticism, but you have a shitty attitude about it and it comes through in the tone of all your posts. You act as if US citizens are naive as a whole, and that you have the solution to all of our problems hidden away in your little pocket. Instead of sounding like an arrogant asshole, maybe you should research the US more and try to understand the issues with an immediate ban on firearms.
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How odd. I'm advocating for actions that I feel would, without doubt, lead to far less Americans being shot dead yet this is construed as anti American. If I was anti American would I not simply leave you to shoot each other?
I think it's the sanctimonious tone of it that's grating on people.
What a great deal of people fail to understand when saying the US should simply ban guns is that we have a nation founded on the damn things. From shooting indians, the french, the british, the canadians, the indians, the mexicans and then eachother, we've found a great deal of use for them and they aren't leaving the culture any time soon. Even if they did, there are people(who live way the bloody hell away from everyone else) who have reasonably legitimate reasons for owning guns, as they need to deal with various pests themselves.
Our problem right now is that people see them as toys more than weapons, and since we've made any minor violence as criminal as major violence we just skip right on up to the big leagues. I personally fail to see how improved access to mental healthcare would help a thing when most people who honestly need it will refuse it even if offered in good faith. But that's me and my experiences with a system that's label happy and managed to aggrivate every issue I had.
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So what percentage of the nearly 30,000 americans shot dead annually would be alive today if there were "improved social services"? The lengths and graping at straws gun "enthusiasts" will go to to avoid curbs on gun ownership never ceases to amaze me.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms)
It's the United States of America we're talking about... NOT South Africa. Get your countries and statistics straight or you just make yourself look like an idiot.
Well leaving aside the third world countries for a moment I can swap sites with you all day long eg. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/14/chart-the-u-s-has-far-more-gun-related-killings-than-any-other-developed-country/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/14/chart-the-u-s-has-far-more-gun-related-killings-than-any-other-developed-country/)
Although I think this site swapping is unlikely to get us anywhere.
What you were being corrected about was the number of Americans dead from firearms, not the relative ranking on the scale. Both websites* report about 9,000 a year, not the 30,000 figure you used, which actually corresponds to South Africa.
The point being, if you can't even bother to check your numbers or understand what you're being criticised about, the odds that you have something worthwhile to contribute drop.
*The second one doesn't state it outright, but the graph shows that the US has about 3 per 100,000 population. US population is about 300,000,000. (3*10^-5)*(3*10^8)=9*10^3=9000
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The NRA is prepared to offer meaningful contributions to help make sure this never happens again.
You can start with with telling the politicians you support and bank roll they should start to actually give a shit about mental healthcare access in this country. I don't except this to happen, given that that's too socialist of an idea for them for most of them. Or at least you can start supporting the need for decent mental healthcare in this country.
"Meaningful contributions," they say. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. HHHHHAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. AHA AHA AHA AHA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Oh boy. We've seen their "meaningful contributions" (http://forums.fstdt.net/politics-and-government/nra-source-don%27t-blame-us-blame-media-and-video-games/), alright.
Oh god, I needed a good laugh.
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What I'm really trying to say here (and I know I'm doing a terrible job of it) is that this is definitely a mark for improved social services, not the banning of firearms.
So what percentage of the nearly 30,000 americans shot dead annually would be alive today if there were "improved social services"? The lengths and graping at straws gun "enthusiasts" will go to to avoid curbs on gun ownership never ceases to amaze me.
Oh hi there. First, I'd like to start by mentioning that I don't own a firearm. Second, I'd like to mention that I live in the People's Republic of Soviet Canuckistan where there are some fairly strict rules regarding owning a ballistic weapon smaller than a rifle.
From what I learned about Prohibition in the 1930's, whenever outright bans occur, all you do is empower your black market and your criminals. And if you had been arsed to read the rest of my post, mental health was an issue with the shooting in Connecticut. It has been an issue in damn near every mass shooting, and as Sleepy mentioned not only is accessing those services horrendously expensive, there's a social stigma about using them.
There are plenty of people who own firearms who use them responsibly, but as Distind has mentioned, still too many people regard it as a toy or a tool of empowerment in the worst possible way, much the same as people with low self esteem trying to make themselves feel superior by putting someone else down. And although "Bowling for Columbine" is a bad example, there is a statistic regarding Canada and its level of gun crime compared to the US. Canadians a similar number of guns per capita, but there's much less violence involving firearms. While I see better regulations helping to curb violence with lead spitters, an outright ban will lead to much bigger problems.
Does that help clarify things?
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So, yeah, and then this came to light. (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/12/20/toronto-arizona-school-shooting-plot.html)
EDIT: Also, this (http://drkellyflanagan.com/2012/12/21/a-list-of-those-responsible-for-the-sandy-hook-massacre/?fb_source=pubv1) was an interesting read.
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Way to stay classy, conservatives (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/12/19/1361521/top-conservative-publication-newtown-happened-because-women-ran-the-school/)
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Way to stay classy, conservatives (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/12/19/1361521/top-conservative-publication-newtown-happened-because-women-ran-the-school/)
... ... ...
*starts looking into his stockpile of molotovs, and wonders if he has enough magnesium lying around...*
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NRA has done it's job repping gun manufacturers -
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/28/16206006-utah-teachers-get-free-gun-training-in-response-to-newtown-shooting?lite (http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/28/16206006-utah-teachers-get-free-gun-training-in-response-to-newtown-shooting?lite)
Why has the better idea of using less-than-lethal (LTL) weapons not been brought up more in the news? Oh, maybe 'cause they aren't big money makers atm? Yet, one would think it a better idea for ordinary civilians to have stunners, flashbangs, laser dazzlers, tasers, etc. than being in a terrifying situation and having to draw a gun, slide off the safety, aim and fire at center mass while being shot at?
In any case, kids in Utah better think twice before acting up in class again.
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In any case, kids in Utah better think twice before acting up in class again.
Those teachers better hope that some kid doesn't get a hold of it. I'm not saying I'm against arming teachers(I personally could care less about the subject), it's just those who come up with the idea don't think beyond the initial knee jerk reaction, which annoys me to no end.
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Great job, bitch, taking advantage of other people's misery.
http://news.yahoo.com/woman-charged-newtown-fraud-sought-sandy-cash-170827119.html (http://news.yahoo.com/woman-charged-newtown-fraud-sought-sandy-cash-170827119.html)
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Great job, bitch, taking advantage of other people's misery.
http://news.yahoo.com/woman-charged-newtown-fraud-sought-sandy-cash-170827119.html (http://news.yahoo.com/woman-charged-newtown-fraud-sought-sandy-cash-170827119.html)
Heard that on the news while I was in the hospital. Fuckin' bitch. And she has the gall to say she wasn't hurting anyone.
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People like her is the reason part of me wants to bring back the stocks. I reserve tarring and feathering for the assholes on Wall Street.
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People like her is the reason part of me wants to bring back the stocks. I reserve tarring and feathering for the assholes on Wall Street.
Why DID we get rid of things like the stocks and the guillotine? Do they fall under cruel and unusual punishment or something?
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People like her is the reason part of me wants to bring back the stocks. I reserve tarring and feathering for the assholes on Wall Street.
Why DID we get rid of things like the stocks and the guillotine? Do they fall under cruel and unusual punishment or something?
Er... technically yes.
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People like her is the reason part of me wants to bring back the stocks. I reserve tarring and feathering for the assholes on Wall Street.
Why DID we get rid of things like the stocks and the guillotine? Do they fall under cruel and unusual punishment or something?
Er... technically yes.
Shit, bring that back. Some public humiliation of, say, the Wall Street fuckers would be a good start.
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I agree with the idea of those crazy Libertarian bankers and financial advisers (coughAlanGreenspancough) getting reprehended and punished in humiliating fashions, but killing them? Really? Even for fucking this country and its people over because they though Free-market Capitalism is still good idea (where it had previously failed and even brought us The Great Depression)? Capital punishment over even "White-collar Crime of the Century?"
Also, on the Utah law to arm teachers, I could not have ever thought the Utah state can become more and more ridiculous until I've heard that headline a few days back. I could even establish another thread on why arming teachers and/or students is a very bad idea.
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So, has anyone seen this?
http://news.msn.com/us/attorney-seeks-to-sue-connecticut-after-school-shooting (http://news.msn.com/us/attorney-seeks-to-sue-connecticut-after-school-shooting)
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People like her is the reason part of me wants to bring back the stocks. I reserve tarring and feathering for the assholes on Wall Street.
Why DID we get rid of things like the stocks and the guillotine? Do they fall under cruel and unusual punishment or something?
Capital punishment? Really?
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So, has anyone seen this?
http://news.msn.com/us/attorney-seeks-to-sue-connecticut-after-school-shooting (http://news.msn.com/us/attorney-seeks-to-sue-connecticut-after-school-shooting)
I honestly don't know what to say about that. I've been waiting to see the clusterfuck of lawsuits from this disaster, though.
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Pretty sure Priestling was more going for stocks/tar and feathering and simply spitballed old forms of punishment.
Also the guillotine has multiple sizes and versions. Could do the mob thing and cut off a finger.
I'm kidding
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Pretty sure Priestling was more going for stocks/tar and feathering and simply spitballed old forms of punishment.
Also the guillotine has multiple sizes and versions. Could do the mob thing and cut off a finger.
I'm kidding
I was actually entirely serious about the guillotine. Why spend several tens of thousands of dollars on lethal injection when a sharp blade will do the trick in twenty seconds?
... sorry, didn't mean to derail about this.
... however, tar and feathering would be entertaining.
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I have my own ethical objections to it, but ehhhh.
It's whatever. I wonder how long it'll take to convict that scammer.
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... however, tar and feathering would be entertaining.
Not really. People died from burns and/or infections back when that was used as a punishment.
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... however, tar and feathering would be entertaining.
Not really. People died from burns and/or infections back when that was used as a punishment.
Yeah that'd be off-putting if our medicine hadn't jumped outta the middle ages.
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Still torture, though.
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Still torture, though.
Still not seeing the problem~
Seriously, for how much shit some of them got away with, and how many hundreds of millions of dollars in the Caymans, or Swiss accounts, tar and feathering would be getting off LIGHT.
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Uh. Torture...no.
Being a barbarian may be fun...but the general goal is to progress...not to go back to that crap
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Uh. Torture...no.
Being a barbarian may be fun...but the general goal is to progress...not to go back to that crap
Then how do you explain the GOP?
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That's why they kinda suck with progression