Author Topic: Science and Faith - Playing Devil's Advocate.  (Read 1391 times)

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Offline Quasirodent

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Science and Faith - Playing Devil's Advocate.
« on: January 31, 2013, 10:12:58 pm »
So I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I've had some thoughts.

Many times I've heard the accusation that science is a faith, and this is generally dismissed with the logic that science itself cannot possibly involve faith, since its very definition contradicts faith.  HOWEVER.
I'm going to argue that for the average person, those of mediocre education, there IS faith involved when it comes to science.  Someone like Tim the bus driver may believe that science is correct because he sees its sense and the advances in technology that only science could make possible... but Tim doesn't really fully understand science.  He's never been to university, he has never done the experiments or observed effects directly - he has to have some faith in the scientific community, that the observations and experiments of other people are correct and honest. 

Heck, even those who ARE scientists won't typically understand things outside their fields of study.  And by 'fully understand', I can only mean to the level that humanity as a species has unraveled any given topic - our greatest experts are still massively ignorant.

Now, granted, the community is massive and constantly self-analyzing, peer-reviewing, adjusting, and correcting - which makes it a lot more trustworthy than some alternatives which do none of those things - but there is still faith involved.  Any time you believe something without understanding it, some faith is involved.  As you come to understand something, faith becomes belief (which we call knowledge, but we don't really have knowledge of much).

I think it's important that people realize this, because it's useful to know that there is a reason why science requires less faith and is more trustworthy to the layman than religion is.  And it's important to be aware of what it means that you don't personally understand a field and are trusting the scientific community to inform you.
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Offline Star Cluster

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Re: Science and Faith - Playing Devil's Advocate.
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2013, 10:43:43 pm »
The biggest thing to remember is that faith is not exclusively a religious phenomenon.  And it is the religious that has skewed the conception of the word.  They have hijacked the word to point that makes it appear that if faith is involved, it has to be religious in nature.  Nothing could be further from the truth. 

I can say I have faith in my wife not to cheat on me.  It doesn't necessarily mean I worship her (although I wouldn't tell her that,) it merely means I trust her.  So, sure, you can have faith in science, but it just means you trust the scientists to study the evidence they have before them and reach the most logical conclusion based on that evidence.  It certainly doesn't mean you worship science.  Religion has nothing to do with it.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 10:52:16 pm by Star Cluster »
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Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.--Steven Weinberg

Religion can never reform mankind because religion is slavery--Robert G. Ingersoll

I don't know why people compare George Carlin to God. He's great and all, but he's no George Carlin.-Anon.

Offline Quasirodent

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Re: Science and Faith - Playing Devil's Advocate.
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2013, 11:29:47 pm »
Oh yes, agreed.
I think what I mean is that when people are debating the matter, if they say there is no faith required to trust in science, it opens one up to fallacious arguments - for instance, this is a false statement therefore all your statements are false, and it wastes time with meta-arguments about whether or not trust in science counts as faith, and if having faith in anything makes one a hypocrite for not having faith in their thing.
It just seems to me that it creates a better foundation if one incorporates that into their stance.
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Offline Star Cluster

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Re: Science and Faith - Playing Devil's Advocate.
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2013, 08:09:39 am »
To say that it doesn't take a certain degree of faith to believe that science is correct in what it has discovered would be silly and ignorant.  Unless a person has done the research themselves, run the experiments, unearthed and studied the fossils, or made the direct observations, that person must trust, or have faith, that the scientists that have done these things have done them in such a way as to be correct and honest about their results.   And we have had many instances of where science has been incorrect because of coming to a conclusion prematurely before eliminating all possible falsifications as well as some scientists that have just out and out faked the results to get to the conclusion they desire.  But these instances are in the very small minority. 

Occasionally, something new will be found that will show that even long standing ideas and conclusions had been wrong all along.  But that is the nature of science.  While the results can almost never be a concrete set-in-stone absolute, they can be considered a near certainty due to the evidence found and studied.  Even at that, sometimes the results must be tweaked in lieu of new evidence.  Science is an ongoing endeavor, constantly looking for new and better explanations for the world and universe we find ourselves in. 

But while we must have the faith that what scientists tell us is true, they can at least show us the evidence or studies from which they drew their conclusions.  Unsupported results would not be tolerated.  So while some degree of faith in science is needed , it is not at the same level that religion requires.

Most major religions have a book from which the faithful draw their conclusions.  And regardless of the amount of studies that are done into the writings and authors on which their book is based, in the end, it still comes down to the fact that they are basing their entire belief system on a book which was written centuries or even millenia ago when science was in it's infancy.  They pondered their existence and that of the world around them, and without the resources to study and research these things, the most logical conclusion to them was "God did it."  And even then, there were skeptics because even the Bible and Koran warn of those that say there is no god.  Yet as we know today, there is no evidence to back up that which is written in the texts of religion.  There is not one iota of proof to back up what is written there.  On the contrary, many things in the Bible can be shown to be demonstrably wrong.  Yet many, if not most, believers today still believe the Bible to be the true word of God.  They don't believe it because it has been shown to be true, they believe it because they want it to be true.  This requires a leap of faith that defies all logic and explanation.

So while both religion and our everyday lives require faith in many things, the type and degree of faith is different.  But for a non-believer to say that science does not require faith is just as fallacious as the religious to say that putting faith in anything is religion.
The heavens convince me there is no god.

Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.--Steven Weinberg

Religion can never reform mankind because religion is slavery--Robert G. Ingersoll

I don't know why people compare George Carlin to God. He's great and all, but he's no George Carlin.-Anon.

Offline Quasirodent

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Re: Science and Faith - Playing Devil's Advocate.
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2013, 12:18:55 pm »
exactly - more eloquently said than I have managed, and basically the same idea. :)
Jesus had two dads and he turned out okay.

Offline Material Defender

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Re: Science and Faith - Playing Devil's Advocate.
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2013, 07:37:42 pm »
I think someone stated it this way.

Science uses faith as a start point and religion uses faith as an end point. Science starts with faith in a hypothesis, but if the hypothesis doesn't pan out the journey ends and a new start is found. Whereas a religion uses faith as its core, being faithful means being part of the religion, thus it is the end point.
The material needs a defender more than the spiritual. If there is a higher power, it can defend itself from the material. Thus denotes 'higher power'.

"Not to know is bad. Not to want to know is worse. Not to hope is unthinkable. Not to care is unforgivable." -Nigerian Saying