Best Political Cartoons

[Lt. Fred]

I do not accept that prostitution is fundamentally degrading. In fact, I would go so far as to say the only reason we perceive it as such is due to the pervasive influence of Judeo-Christian religion on our societal values and taboos.

But that's just, like, my opinion, man.

Xactly. It's actually a matter of opinion reasonable people can disagree about, and it shits me to no end that both sides treat the other like they must be burnt at the stake for violating some fundamental tenant of feminism.

Really the way to deal with this is to do nothing is policy terms until there is a rough consensus within the feminist movement, or (more likely) until circumstances make the disagreement irrelevant.

[Askold]

And do you also ban male prostitution?

That's the thing, right - bans 100% will not work and everyone knows it, so it becomes a problem of implementation. How do you discourage and gradually eradicate prostitution without driving it underground and turning all the prostitutes into sex slaves?

The Scandinavian model is okay I guess? Not sure how effective it's been but that's the sort of thing you'd be looking at.

But if you don't accept that prostitution is fundamentally degrading - and that's totally the thing I don't know if I agree with or not - then there's no need. It's super easy - you just legalise it completely, regulate like any business and encourage some sick worker's cooperatives or unionisation.

Your answer has nothing to do with the question. You fail, come see the teacher after the class.

[Lt. Fred]

Obviously you would treat all kinds of prostitution the same.

[RavynousHunter]

Current, illegal prostitution is very degrading, but that's not because of the practice itself, but because of abusive pimps who keep their prostitutes in line with a combination of hopelessness and fear that, should they ever go to the authorities, that they'd simply be arrested instead of have their abuse investigated.  Ask women at places like the Bunny Ranch in Nevada if they feel exploited or degraded.  They work in an environment, and an area, where prostitution is legal.  They're kept clean (via regular STD screenings and mandatory condom use), safe (from what I've gathered, these places have very strict security), happy.  The practice is only ever degrading when its kept illegal, and even then, its due to a third party.  You seem to forget, Fred, that women who sell themselves at places like the Bunny Ranch do so entirely by choice.  If we deny people the ability to sell what they want (within reason), up to and including their bodies, then we deny them autonomy.  We deny them the ability to decide for themselves, as consenting, informed adults, what they do with their bodies.  If they make a choice that, later on, turns out to be stupid, then it is not our place as a society to punish them, but to help them.  The natural consequences are punishment enough.

[Barbarella]

Current, illegal prostitution is very degrading, but that's not because of the practice itself, but because of abusive pimps who keep their prostitutes in line with a combination of hopelessness and fear that, should they ever go to the authorities, that they'd simply be arrested instead of have their abuse investigated.  Ask women at places like the Bunny Ranch in Nevada if they feel exploited or degraded.  They work in an environment, and an area, where prostitution is legal.  They're kept clean (via regular STD screenings and mandatory condom use), safe (from what I've gathered, these places have very strict security), happy.  The practice is only ever degrading when its kept illegal, and even then, its due to a third party.  You seem to forget, Fred, that women who sell themselves at places like the Bunny Ranch do so entirely by choice.  If we deny people the ability to sell what they want (within reason), up to and including their bodies, then we deny them autonomy.  We deny them the ability to decide for themselves, as consenting, informed adults, what they do with their bodies.  If they make a choice that, later on, turns out to be stupid, then it is not our place as a society to punish them, but to help them.  The natural consequences are punishment enough.

And what makes The Bunny Ranch also cool is that it's REGULATED. Regulation is key! Without regulation you get the legalized prostitution in Germany that's still made up of sex-slaves.

I'm all for legalizing prostitution but such things still need regulations.

Regulations are good, they keep businesses, manufacturers & products on the up-and-up and keep the more malevolent impulses of corrupt CEOs & Banks under control. All that deregulating during the past 30 years in the States was the worst thing ever done!

[Lt. Fred]

Current, illegal prostitution is very degrading, but that's not because of the practice itself, but because of abusive pimps who keep their prostitutes in line with a combination of hopelessness and fear that, should they ever go to the authorities, that they'd simply be arrested instead of have their abuse investigated.  Ask women at places like the Bunny Ranch in Nevada if they feel exploited or degraded.  They work in an environment, and an area, where prostitution is legal.  They're kept clean (via regular STD screenings and mandatory condom use), safe (from what I've gathered, these places have very strict security), happy.  The practice is only ever degrading when its kept illegal, and even then, its due to a third party.  You seem to forget, Fred, that women who sell themselves at places like the Bunny Ranch do so entirely by choice.  If we deny people the ability to sell what they want (within reason), up to and including their bodies, then we deny them autonomy.  We deny them the ability to decide for themselves, as consenting, informed adults, what they do with their bodies.  If they make a choice that, later on, turns out to be stupid, then it is not our place as a society to punish them, but to help them.  The natural consequences are punishment enough.

If you accept that prostitution isn't part of the patriarchy, that's the way to go, yeah.

[Eiki-mun]

Current, illegal prostitution is very degrading, but that's not because of the practice itself, but because of abusive pimps who keep their prostitutes in line with a combination of hopelessness and fear that, should they ever go to the authorities, that they'd simply be arrested instead of have their abuse investigated.  Ask women at places like the Bunny Ranch in Nevada if they feel exploited or degraded.  They work in an environment, and an area, where prostitution is legal.  They're kept clean (via regular STD screenings and mandatory condom use), safe (from what I've gathered, these places have very strict security), happy.  The practice is only ever degrading when its kept illegal, and even then, its due to a third party.  You seem to forget, Fred, that women who sell themselves at places like the Bunny Ranch do so entirely by choice.  If we deny people the ability to sell what they want (within reason), up to and including their bodies, then we deny them autonomy.  We deny them the ability to decide for themselves, as consenting, informed adults, what they do with their bodies.  If they make a choice that, later on, turns out to be stupid, then it is not our place as a society to punish them, but to help them.  The natural consequences are punishment enough.

If you accept that prostitution isn't part of the patriarchy, that's the way to go, yeah.

What exactly is "the patriarchy" in your mind, and why is prostitution "part" of it, whatever that means? Is not prostitution the act of selling your sexual favors for goods and services? While it is, obviously, a largely female-dominated industry, there is no reason why it has to be, and in fact in a more fair and equal society, male prostitutes would have nearly as many opportunities as female prostitutes. Why must the act of selling sexual favors for goods and services be an inherent part of "the patriarchy" for you?

[Lt. Fred]

https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/faq-isnt-the-patriarchy-just-some-conspiracy-theory-that-blames-all-men-even-decent-men-for-womens-woes/

[Eiki-mun]

That's a nice link, but it tells me nothing about why you believe that the act of selling sexual favors for goods and services is inherently patriarchal. Actually, I'd go so far as to say it doesn't really tell me much at all.

[Barbarella]

This is why I'm a Sex-Positive Feminist. None of that silliness with us. We don't toss the baby out with the bathwater and we KNOW that part of Women's Liberation is SEXUAL Liberation!

[Canadian Mojo]

But it is not necessarily demeaning. That has more to do with the cultural stigma than what is actually happening and if you believe that people are allowed to choose who they have sex with there is nothing wrong with prostitution (unless minors are involved or someone has been forced into becoming a prostitute but those can be dealt with more ease if sex trade is not illegal.)

Yes, there is a counter-case. I'm not sure, as I said, which argument I accept. I think both have merit.

Obviously I'd not want to outright BAN prostitution, because that just wouldn't work from an implementation perspective. But what should be the objective of policy - to make prostitution a more 'democratic' job, for lack of a better word - or to discourage it as much as possible, while avoiding the inevitable unintended consequences of banning?

Why do you even need an objective?

Make it safe and let grown-ups decide for themselves what to do with it.

Well, if you accept that prostitution and the sale of womens' bodies is a fundamental part of the patriarchy than yeah!

Edit: The problem with just leaving it up to employers and employees is that it's the freedom of the market - you're free to sell your body or to starve to death. There is always an element of compulsion. That's why markets work.

So you're saying that women having a commodity men want automatically makes it 'the patriarchy' even if you create a situation where women control the market (i.e. through rigorous regulation)?

[Zygarde]

Okay, so I didn't want to get into this conversation cause it seemed to...unstable, but now I'm going to weigh in. In my opinion I think prostitution should be legal and regulated. Look people are gonna sell their bodies regardless if it's legal or not the best thing we can do is make it so that women and men who do can be protected and the profession can be regulated. Hell I'll use an example that we all agree with; abortion.

When abortion was illegal people still did it but they did it in unsafe and often dangerous environments which often resulted in deaths of those seeking an abortion, but now that it's not only legal but regulated and safe we have basically no deaths from it, the same can be applied with prostitution so long as it's illegal it's a dangerous profession that leads to unnecessary deaths via either STI's, overzealous pimps or clients who want to kill "whores", people who want to sell their bodies of their own volition deserve to do it in a safe and regulated place where they don't run the risk of dying.

[Lt. Fred]

That's a nice link, but it tells me nothing about why you believe that the act of selling sexual favors for goods and services is inherently patriarchal. Actually, I'd go so far as to say it doesn't really tell me much at all.

I don't necessarily believe that prostitution is always part of the patriarchy. Some people do. I don't disagree. I think there's a reasonable case that honest people can disagree about.

Okay, so I didn't want to get into this conversation cause it seemed to...unstable, but now I'm going to weigh in. In my opinion I think prostitution should be legal and regulated. Look people are gonna sell their bodies regardless if it's legal or not the best thing we can do is make it so that women and men who do can be protected and the profession can be regulated. Hell I'll use an example that we all agree with; abortion.

When abortion was illegal people still did it but they did it in unsafe and often dangerous environments which often resulted in deaths of those seeking an abortion, but now that it's not only legal but regulated and safe we have basically no deaths from it, the same can be applied with prostitution so long as it's illegal it's a dangerous profession that leads to unnecessary deaths via either STI's, overzealous pimps or clients who want to kill "whores", people who want to sell their bodies of their own volition deserve to do it in a safe and regulated place where they don't run the risk of dying.

Nobody* thinks prostitution should be banned outright. Some people think it's A-okay, and other people think it's problematic and should be discouraged in a way that isn't stupid - ie, not through a ban. I've laid out one alternative above.

The question is to the fundamental nature of prostitution. Is it empowering or disempowering? That's something people can disagree on - and I think silly propaganda terms like "pro-sex" aren't helping anyone understand that important and difficult question. All members of both sides* are genuine feminists.

* That is worth taking seriously.

[Eiki-mun]

That's a nice link, but it tells me nothing about why you believe that the act of selling sexual favors for goods and services is inherently patriarchal. Actually, I'd go so far as to say it doesn't really tell me much at all.

I don't necessarily believe that prostitution is always part of the patriarchy. Some people do. I don't disagree. I think there's a reasonable case that honest people can disagree about.

Now you're just being confusing. If you don't believe that prostitution is an inherent part of the patriarchy, then why don't you disagree with those who say it does? There isn't exactly a middle ground here. Either you agree with someone, or you disagree with them, or you have no opinion on the matter and therefore no real ground to argue the matter on at all. So which is it?

Allow me to make myself clear: In your own personal opinion, do you think that selling ones sexual favors for goods and services is inherently patriarchal? And if you do not, why do you not disagree with those who do?

[Lt. Fred]

I don't think the answer is yet known, and I think those who claim it is are wrong.

Edit: Let me put it this way. There are questions that have a clear answer. 1+1 is 2. Universal health insurance is a necessity. Urban highways are bad. Feminism is good. If you don't accept the right answer you're a hack, and deserve derision.

This is not one of those questions.