Author Topic: Bloomberg soda ban  (Read 27264 times)

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Offline tygerarmy

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Re: Bloomberg soda ban
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2012, 06:38:44 pm »
The government should not regulate personal responsibility.
I work out and I take care of myself, no one should tell me what I can eat or drink.
If they sell can more than one 16 once drink or free refills it defeats the point. If I can order a giant burger, cheese fries, wings and nachos and cake, is the 20 once soda really the worst thing there?
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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Bloomberg soda ban
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2012, 07:16:12 pm »
Washington state had a tax on candy, junk food, and sugary drinks once, but it was inconsistently enforced. For one thing, Cheetos were considered junk food and were therefore taxed, but things like Kit Kats (which are obviously candy by every definition of the word) were not, because Kit Kats contain a wafer inside of them. There are just too many ways that big business lobbies can turn "health laws" into tools against their competition.

Well the problem with this logic is that its a rather defeatist attitude to have. The idea to tax junk food was not the flaw of the bill, it was the bill's wording (to my knowledge as you described it). Taxes can be instituted on all junk foods and drinks without favoring one over the other, I mean the phrase "empty calories" seems like a good enough place to start. You could even get into laws that would tax foods if the vitamin/mineral to calorie ratio was too low which would amount to very little extra spending as the nutritional facts are generally printed on every candy bar to be sold.

And I say "eh" to the law. Something has to be done about America's obesity problem and its becoming apparent that people aren't going to make the right decisions tomorrow as long as the status quo remains in tact. I think taxes on such "empty calories" would be a better idea, but it wouldn't pass.

The problem isn't that corporations are dicks, the problem is that people do not have a lot of nutritional education, and if they do then they rarely apply that knowledge to nutritional labels. They have the opportunity to look into the nutritional health of the food they eat, but they do not. That's not the fault of the companies, that's the fault of individual consumers.

Also, "junk food" and fast food are much cheaper than healthier food and tend to last longer too, making them popular among lower-income families. Say what you will about KFC's nutritional value, but there aren't that many other places where you can feed a whole family dinner for only a dollar. Taxing this is not just an insult to the people who do watch their health, but also adds more of a burden upon the lower class.

In part because of FPqxz's 4th point, but also America is in this juvenile stage where everything is some sleight against their liberties. Telling MacDonalds to offer apples is an attack on personal liberty. Having schools remove sugar cookies is a threat to our freedom. Removing trans fats (my favorite fats  ;)) scares the shit out of the Tea Party and Glenn Beck. If America was more reasonable, the junk food lobby could spend all they wanted to no avail. However, when this childish attitude permeates American culture, we're doing their job for them.

Suggesting McDonald's to sell apples is okay. Legally mandating them to sell apples is not. There's no constitutional grounds for the government telling a private organization what they can and cannot sell or do with their funds. Of course there is a line to protect the public's safety, but there is a difference between selling fatty foods and, say, selling foods with botulism. The former is only harmful if the consumer chooses to eat too much of it and does not take the proper health measures to protect themselves. The latter is always harmful, no matter who eats it.

Public schools are not forcing kids to buy sugar cookies. Kids can choose to abstain from sugar cookies. It's really that simple. They also have the option of bringing their own lunches to school if they don't like what the school provides. Not to sound like I have a "blame the victim" mentality, but a child's nutrition is really the responsibility of the parents, not the state. If you set absolutely no guidelines for your child's diet and never teach them about what is healthy eating and what is not, then don't blame the schools when your child becomes unhealthy due to their eating choices.

It's not really a "BAWWW THOSE POOR WIDDLE MULTINATIONAL CORPORATIONS" thing, but a fear about the precedent it sets when the government can step in and make financial and nutritional decisions for private organizations and consumers. And while I do not consider regulations to protect the consumer necessarily incompatible with libertarianism, I do think they only extend to the point where the consumer has their life, liberty, or property directly harmed without their consent. If I choose to  eat very fatty foods all the time and I know the risks of my behavior thanks to nutritional labels, there is no excuse for me blaming the food company after I get sick.
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Offline Yaezakura

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Re: Bloomberg soda ban
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2012, 07:32:56 pm »
What Wykked Wytch said, basically. That really does voice my opinion on the matter as well.

Offline niam2023

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Re: Bloomberg soda ban
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2012, 09:55:31 pm »
I full on support anything to limit sodas.

May have something to do with the venomous hatred I have of soda.
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Offline Yaezakura

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Re: Bloomberg soda ban
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2012, 10:11:25 pm »
I full on support anything to limit sodas.

May have something to do with the venomous hatred I have of soda.

Because your personal biases are great reasons for laws that restrict the freedom of others.

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Re: Bloomberg soda ban
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2012, 10:44:29 pm »
The problem isn't that corporations are dicks, the problem is that people do not have a lot of nutritional education, and if they do then they rarely apply that knowledge to nutritional labels. They have the opportunity to look into the nutritional health of the food they eat, but they do not. That's not the fault of the companies, that's the fault of individual consumers.

Also, "junk food" and fast food are much cheaper than healthier food and tend to last longer too, making them popular among lower-income families. Say what you will about KFC's nutritional value, but there aren't that many other places where you can feed a whole family dinner for only a dollar. Taxing this is not just an insult to the people who do watch their health, but also adds more of a burden upon the lower class.

Again, you're adopting a defeatist attitude. If we were tax junk foods and remove the subsidies that go to their production, then take that money to subsidize fruits, vegetables, grain, cereals, etc. then your argument is literally turned on its head. People don't need to know the nutritional health of apples, celery, soda, and oreos. Right now, people look at price when coming to their decision and making the latter two more expensive (while subsidizing the first) would decrease the amounts of the latter two which are bought. I also think that feeding a whole family for "only a dollar" at KFC may be a bit of an exaggeration if not a poor word choice.



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Suggesting McDonald's to sell apples is okay. Legally mandating them to sell apples is not.

Except now you're misinterpreting what happened (which is easy when the right wing noise machine blows everything out of proportion if not telling out right fabrications). No body in government "legally mandated" MacDonald's to sell apples with every happy meal, or to sell no fries, or even less fries. Michelle Obama made childhood obesity an issue she would like to work to solve and the right wing blew it out of proportion. All she's really doing is lobbying MacDonalds to change their happy meals, i.e. recommending they do it and providing things like facts and statistics. MacDonald's was free to tell her "no" but instead MacDonald's made the decision to adopt her idea and now apples are included in every happy meal while the number of fries are cut in half. So my question is, a private organization made a decision that was ultimately their own, why the "libertarian" outrage? (libertarian in quotes because teabaggers=/=libertarians)

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There's no constitutional grounds for the government telling a private organization what they can and cannot sell or do with their funds.

United States v. Carolene Products (1938)-regulated what types of milk could be sold
Nebbia V. New York (1934)- ditto
Wickard v. Filburn (1942)-regulated wheat grown by a wheat farmer for even personal use
Standard Oil Co. of New Jersey v. United States (1911)- prevented corporations from using funds in ways which restrain trade
United States v. National City Lines Inc (1948)- prevented corporations from buying public transportation as part of a conspiracy to halt public transportation
Williamson v. Lee Optical Co (1955)- prevented sale of a service which is unlicensed or unprofessional
Goldblatt v. Town of Hempstead (1969)- Town of Hempstead created very specific "zoning laws" tailored to shut down a business
Heart of Atlanta Motel Inc. v. United States (1964)- rules corporations can not discriminate in who they sell too
(Pending) National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius (Obamacare)- Mandates what percentage of a health insurance company's funds must be used on providing health insurance.

Etc. I won't go on. However, these are just Supreme Court cases dealing with what can or can not be sold, how it can be sold, to whom, and regulations on what corporations and private individuals can do with their funds. There are a whole host of more modern examples of case laws and many laws (both federal and local) that didn't even meet the Writ of Certiorari to have the case heard (earning a de facto approval). Fact is there is legal grounds for doing exactly the opposite of what you've said.

Quote
Of course there is a line to protect the public's safety, but there is a difference between selling fatty foods and, say, selling foods with botulism. The former is only harmful if the consumer chooses to eat too much of it and does not take the proper health measures to protect themselves. The latter is always harmful, no matter who eats it.

This, combined with your last paragraph, make it sound as though Joe Six Pack or Mr. Goodbar's decisions regarding their diet affect only them. It doesn't. We live in a society where individuals rely on one another to a great extent. Joe's cirrhosis and Mr. Goodbar's type two diabetes will end up being paid for by the society they live in (either through medicare which is tax payer money or private insurance which increases operating costs and therefore premiums on everyone else). Taking a preventive measure like taxing their luxuries to deter their poor decisions is not an attack on their liberties, it is a preventative measure to save money on the part of the larger society.

Also, regulation of foods covered in botulism=telling a business what they can't sell (taken prima facie).

Quote
Public schools are not forcing kids to buy sugar cookies. Kids can choose to abstain from sugar cookies. It's really that simple. They also have the option of bringing their own lunches to school if they don't like what the school provides. Not to sound like I have a "blame the victim" mentality, but a child's nutrition is really the responsibility of the parents, not the state. If you set absolutely no guidelines for your child's diet and never teach them about what is healthy eating and what is not, then don't blame the schools when your child becomes unhealthy due to their eating choices.

I really don't know what you're getting at with this point, and I feel you only typed this paragraph to go along with the age old internet meme of attacking every point someone makes (as though 100% of what I said in any post could ever be wrong). However, I bolded the last paragraph to show you why a school's decision to not sell sugar cookies is probably a good idea.

You mention poor families earlier in your post and that the status quo pushes them to making unhealthy decisions (something I agree with), but right here I have to point out that school lunches for such poor children may be the only hot meal they receive all day and may be the healthiest meal they receive. Therefore, I think that for these poor families and children, the government should take more of an interest in providing these children with a healthy meal and removing the option of sugar cookies is at the very least a good start. Removing soda machines in schools would be another one, but now I'm becoming too optimistic.

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Re: Bloomberg soda ban
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2012, 10:57:25 pm »
^^ This.

Also, I'd like to point out that for many, it's not a lack of nutritional education. Pretty much everyone knows that vegetables are good for you and soda isn't. The problem is the expense. Processed foods are just cheaper than healthy foods.

Offline Fpqxz

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Re: Bloomberg soda ban
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2012, 12:34:58 am »
Quote from: Wykked Wytch
There's no constitutional grounds for the government telling a private organization what they can and cannot sell or do with their funds.

United States v. Carolene Products (1938)-regulated what types of milk could be sold
Nebbia V. New York (1934)- ditto
Wickard v. Filburn (1942)-regulated wheat grown by a wheat farmer for even personal use
Standard Oil Co. of New Jersey v. United States (1911)- prevented corporations from using funds in ways which restrain trade
United States v. National City Lines Inc (1948)- prevented corporations from buying public transportation as part of a conspiracy to halt public transportation
Williamson v. Lee Optical Co (1955)- prevented sale of a service which is unlicensed or unprofessional
Goldblatt v. Town of Hempstead (1969)- Town of Hempstead created very specific "zoning laws" tailored to shut down a business
Heart of Atlanta Motel Inc. v. United States (1964)- rules corporations can not discriminate in who they sell too
(Pending) National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius (Obamacare)- Mandates what percentage of a health insurance company's funds must be used on providing health insurance.

Etc. I won't go on. However, these are just Supreme Court cases dealing with what can or can not be sold, how it can be sold, to whom, and regulations on what corporations and private individuals can do with their funds. There are a whole host of more modern examples of case laws and many laws (both federal and local) that didn't even meet the Writ of Certiorari to have the case heard (earning a de facto approval). Fact is there is legal grounds for doing exactly the opposite of what you've said.

Well, shit, looks like someone has been reading up on their Constitutional law.   8)

I would just like to add here that many of the cases you cited above deal with federal law and the Commerce Clause (except Nebbia, Williamson, and Goldblatt).  The states (and local governments, whose power derives from the states) have a much wider latitude in regulating economic activity under the police power.

However, there is a significant difference between the issue of the constitutionality of a policy and the effectiveness of that policy.  What Mayor Bloomberg is doing here is undoubtedly constitutional.  I just don't think it is the best way of going about solving a problem.

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Quote from: Wykked Wytch
Of course there is a line to protect the public's safety, but there is a difference between selling fatty foods and, say, selling foods with botulism. The former is only harmful if the consumer chooses to eat too much of it and does not take the proper health measures to protect themselves. The latter is always harmful, no matter who eats it.

This, combined with your last paragraph, make it sound as though Joe Six Pack or Mr. Goodbar's decisions regarding their diet affect only them. It doesn't. We live in a society where individuals rely on one another to a great extent. Joe's cirrhosis and Mr. Goodbar's type two diabetes will end up being paid for by the society they live in (either through medicare which is tax payer money or private insurance which increases operating costs and therefore premiums on everyone else). Taking a preventive measure like taxing their luxuries to deter their poor decisions is not an attack on their liberties, it is a preventative measure to save money on the part of the larger society.

Also, regulation of foods covered in botulism=telling a business what they can't sell (taken prima facie).

Obesity and other illnesses are also a public health issue.  Not only does it drive up insurance and medical costs, they also cause economic harm in the form of lost productivity (greater illness, disability, absenteeism from work, higher death rates), and, if certain military analysts are to be believed, decreased military readiness.

Quote from: QueenofHearts
You mention poor families earlier in your post and that the status quo pushes them to making unhealthy decisions (something I agree with), but right here I have to point out that school lunches for such poor children may be the only hot meal they receive all day and may be the healthiest meal they receive. Therefore, I think that for these poor families and children, the government should take more of an interest in providing these children with a healthy meal and removing the option of sugar cookies is at the very least a good start. Removing soda machines in schools would be another one, but now I'm becoming too optimistic.

Revisiting food and agriculture policy would be a good idea to solve the "poverty" facet of the obesity problem.  Unfortunately, it would require Congress to step on the toes of the farm lobby.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 12:39:28 am by Fpqxz »
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Offline niam2023

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Re: Bloomberg soda ban
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2012, 01:03:59 am »
Quote
Because your personal biases are great reasons for laws that restrict the freedom of others.

I actually never thought it was particularly wrong for me to believe in causes that way.

All the same, I do agree Bloomberg is being rather idiotic about trying to fight obesity. If anything, the Physical Education program in school needs to become more demanding, more rigorous, and ultimately necessary at all levels, as well as requiring a sport or physical activity for students.

If youth obesity is to be fought, we need to drill into people that later in life, fat people's lives will not be pleasant at all, as well as the social stigmas afforded to those people.
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Offline DarkfireTaimatsu

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Re: Bloomberg soda ban
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2012, 01:16:43 am »
Or, here's a radical idea: why not get rid of the social stigmas instead of getting rid of the fat people? Eh? Eh?

Alls I know is, if anyone had tried to require a sport when I was in school, I would've dropped the fuck out, and that's not even an exaggeration.
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Re: Bloomberg soda ban
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2012, 01:24:06 am »
The government should not regulate personal responsibility.
I work out and I take care of myself, no one should tell me what I can eat or drink.
If they sell can more than one 16 once drink or free refills it defeats the point. If I can order a giant burger, cheese fries, wings and nachos and cake, is the 20 once soda really the worst thing there?

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Re: Bloomberg soda ban
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2012, 01:33:59 am »
In regards to processed foods being cheaper... I for one would like to eat healthier.  I'd like to give tofu a try, for example, but it's 2.50 a pound.

... admittedly, it's still cheaper than the ground beef, no matter what the fat content cuts, but still...
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Bloomberg soda ban
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2012, 02:09:39 am »
The government should not regulate personal responsibility.

Nobody not a paid Republican agent should use the words 'personal responsibility'* except to satire them, humiliate the Republican movement or in some other way reduce their effect. Your very sentence-structure is pro-GOP propaganda.

* 'Personal responsibility' means 'Good Thing, sometimes prevented by the existence of Government.' Also 'welfare' (meaning 'any money black people obtain, esp mothers'). Also Nanny state; 'Derogative term for any government, especially Democratic government'.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 02:14:02 am by Lt. Fred »
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Re: Bloomberg soda ban
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2012, 02:30:37 am »
The government should not regulate personal responsibility.

Nobody not a paid Republican agent should use the words 'personal responsibility'* except to satire them, humiliate the Republican movement or in some other way reduce their effect. Your very sentence-structure is pro-GOP propaganda.

* 'Personal responsibility' means 'Good Thing, sometimes prevented by the existence of Government.' Also 'welfare' (meaning 'any money black people obtain, esp mothers'). Also Nanny state; 'Derogative term for any government, especially Democratic government'.

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Re: Bloomberg soda ban
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2012, 02:35:15 am »
The government should not regulate personal responsibility.

Nobody not a paid Republican agent should use the words 'personal responsibility'* except to satire them, humiliate the Republican movement or in some other way reduce their effect. Your very sentence-structure is pro-GOP propaganda.

* 'Personal responsibility' means 'Good Thing, sometimes prevented by the existence of Government.' Also 'welfare' (meaning 'any money black people obtain, esp mothers'). Also Nanny state; 'Derogative term for any government, especially Democratic government'.


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