Author Topic: Gun Control  (Read 79776 times)

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Offline m52nickerson

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #90 on: December 17, 2012, 09:54:59 am »
The problem is two fold.  We have a massive problem in this country of not getting individual with mental health problems the help they need.  Second, weapons and ammo are far to assessable to people with mental health problems.  I do not think that a firearm, any firearm, should not be in the same home as someone with problems with their mental health.  If that means we bar people from having weapons in their homes if they live with such an individual fine.

As far as bans on certain weapons I'm not board.  Just because an AR-15 or civilian AK are semi-auto does not mean they are not extremely deadly.  Full auto is not really for killing people, but to put a large number of rounds down range as covering fire.  Heck, had some of these shooters have full auto weapons the death toll may have been less because accuracy goes to shit.  The new versions of the M-14 don't even have a full auto setting anymore for this reason.

...and no an assault rifle is not the same beast as a hunting rifle.

As far as ammo I think some type of permit should be required to buy it.  That can be tied to pistol permits and the like.

I know the argument that bans and restrictions will not work because people can just get weapons illegally.  They can, but the vast majority of these shooting have been with legal weapons.  Perhaps some of the shoots would have gone an bought black market firearms but I think many would not have.  There is a reason we see shooting like this far more than bombing even when a bomb can do far more damage.  It is rare that a person would have all the components to make a bomb at the ready.   
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Offline Askold

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #91 on: December 17, 2012, 10:14:26 am »
There is a reason we see shooting like this far more than bombing even when a bomb can do far more damage.  It is rare that a person would have all the components to make a bomb at the ready.   

There is some truth to this.

If the spree killer simply "snaps" and goes on an amok run which has not been planned beforehand he would likely use something, anything (s)he can get his/her hands on. So if this perso owns a gun that could be it. (Or a car I suppose, a car could do a lot of damage if you drive into a crowd as has happened before.) A person is less likely to quickly study how to make a bomb and then build it out of household materials.

Then again there are also mass/spree killings which had been planned for a long time. And in those cases building a bomb is a very real and dangerous possibility.

I don't think mixing up something that will blow up is that hard. Proper fuze or timed detonator might require more skill and equipment.
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Offline D Laurier

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #92 on: December 17, 2012, 10:46:20 am »
I have a question.
If guns are banned, how does a farmer stop a fox or racoon from destroying his livelyhood?

All it takes is one rabid fox to infect a whole herd of cattle.
One racoon can kill hundreds of chickens in an hour.
Coyotes are another problem for farmers. A pack can bring down a bull in minutes.

If you call animal control, they might show up the next day with a live trap... or they might take a week to get to you. Meanwhile, everything you own is being destroyed.

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #93 on: December 17, 2012, 10:49:22 am »
A large stick. Or any of the other pre-rifling methods we used to use.

Or proper fencing, that can accomplish a lot too.

Offline Atheissimo

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #94 on: December 17, 2012, 01:45:02 pm »
I have a question.
If guns are banned, how does a farmer stop a fox or racoon from destroying his livelyhood?

All it takes is one rabid fox to infect a whole herd of cattle.
One racoon can kill hundreds of chickens in an hour.
Coyotes are another problem for farmers. A pack can bring down a bull in minutes.

If you call animal control, they might show up the next day with a live trap... or they might take a week to get to you. Meanwhile, everything you own is being destroyed.

I don't think anyone is calling for ALL guns to be banned.

In countries where handguns are banned like the UK you can still get a shotgun or certain kinds of rifle if you have a license
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Offline TheL

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #95 on: December 17, 2012, 03:32:48 pm »
I love the, 'guns are tools.' argument.  The problem with it is, real tools like hammers, screwdrivers, and even knives have non-injuring uses, like, I don't know, building buildings, fixing devices, etc.

Guns have one, ONE use . . . to hurt people or damage objects.  The only gun that can do otherwise is a nailgun, so until they invent AK-47's that can repai damaged pipes or attach objects to walls, they are NOT tools!

Er, technically there is another use:  to kill animals for food.  My grandfather used to hunt deer for venison, and I'll thank you to kindly remember that there are gun users who wouldn't dream of using said guns on human beings.  Also, animals are alive and thus are not generally considered "objects."
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Offline booley

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #96 on: December 17, 2012, 05:34:41 pm »
.....
Then again there are also mass/spree killings which had been planned for a long time. And in those cases building a bomb is a very real and dangerous possibility.
Quote

quite a few mass murders were pre planned.  some of them even had explosives.

but explosives were not the primary weapon used here.

and even when a bomb was (unabomber, atlanta olympics) the death toll wasn't as horrific.

Guns are simply better

Quote
I don't think mixing up something that will blow up is that hard. Proper fuze or timed detonator might require more skill and equipment.

think of it this way.
You mess up with a gun, a modicrum of care should keep you from shooting your self.
Mess up with a bomb, you blow yourself up

why do you think terrorists put such high regard for skilled gun makers?
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Offline booley

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #97 on: December 17, 2012, 05:36:07 pm »
A large stick. Or any of the other pre-rifling methods we used to use.

Or proper fencing, that can accomplish a lot too.

or a dog

but really, we aren't talking about a total ban on guns.
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Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #98 on: December 17, 2012, 07:06:05 pm »
So what is the answer? Bear in mind there is not a way right now to make guns go away. If they stopped making guns right now as I type this, there are still millions of guns floating around the US.

There absolutely is a way to make guns go away. Australia, for instance, used to have twice as many firearms as we currently do. Then we destroyed them all. With a halving of the number of guns (from 88 per 100 persons to 44 per 100 persons), gun crime would decline precipitously, as it did here.
So, those guns that are 'still out there,' who has them?

The people who were the potential problems to begin with.

The question is how do you make those people comply with the law? If you can answer that Fred, I'll nominate you for the Nobel Peace Prize.


Offline Damen

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #99 on: December 17, 2012, 09:24:20 pm »
So, Dianne Feinstein has promised to introduce legislation in the next session of congress to ban semiautomatic rifles. Without going into a whole lot of detail of why I don't think this will pass (Republicans) or whether it's a good or bad or just law, I'm going to pretend this passes both the Senate and the House and point something out I'd been pondering a wee while ago.

I actually think this could be challenged on Constitutional grounds as a violation of the Second Amendment's militia clause. The reason I believe this is actually based on the 1939 Supreme Court ruling in US v Miller. In that case, Miller argued that having to register a shotgun with a barrel length of less than 18 inches violated his Second Amendment rights.

The court ruled:

Quote
In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense.

A militia is basically the last line of defense for a nation and as such needs to have much of the same or similar equipment as the military. Semiautomatic rifles such as AR-15 type rifles, however, can meet the minimum standards for a militia if not the military and being that the AR-15, designed originally for the civilian market and later adopted by the military as the select-fire M-16, can, in fact, contribute to the national defense.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #100 on: December 17, 2012, 11:35:26 pm »
How do you make people comply with laws? A very difficult question. Traditionally the most effective methods, known as 'a police force' and 'prison', have not quite been completely effective.
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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #101 on: December 17, 2012, 11:39:52 pm »
How do you make people comply with laws? A very difficult question. Traditionally the most effective methods, known as 'a police force' and 'prison', have not quite been completely effective.

So basically, your solution to the problem of how to make people abide by bans of certain firearms is to round them all up and put them in jail for victimless crimes.

Yeah, this technique has totally stood the test of time. No problems here whatsoever, no siree.
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Offline booley

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #102 on: December 18, 2012, 12:08:23 am »
....

The question is how do you make those people comply with the law? If you can answer that Fred, I'll nominate you for the Nobel Peace Prize.

what abou tthos that did comply with the law?

what about those people who couldn't get these illegal guns?

did gun violence go down?

as far as suicide, it appears it did.

I guess my thing here is we don't expect 100% compliance with any other law to judge it effective.

Except it seems, for guns.

BTW, apparently we do ban at least one kind of gun and it seems to have worked.

We dont' seem to have had a rash of plastic guns. With 3D printing that may change but so far criminals seem to be using what they can get easily.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #103 on: December 18, 2012, 12:24:13 am »
How do you make people comply with laws? A very difficult question. Traditionally the most effective methods, known as 'a police force' and 'prison', have not quite been completely effective.

So basically, your solution to the problem of how to make people abide by bans of certain firearms rape/murder/drug dealing is to round them all up and put them in jail for victimless crimes. 
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http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #104 on: December 18, 2012, 12:27:00 am »
How do you make people comply with laws? A very difficult question. Traditionally the most effective methods, known as 'a police force' and 'prison', have not quite been completely effective.

So basically, your solution to the problem of how to make people abide by bans of certain firearms rape/murder/drug dealing is to round them all up and put them in jail for victimless crimes. 

Quote
victimless crimes

Quote
victimless crimes

Quote
victimless crimes
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