Author Topic: Gun Control  (Read 79417 times)

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Offline booley

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #60 on: December 15, 2012, 07:39:38 pm »
.....

He doesn't like people who want mass shooters and other killers to have guns.

That is a straw man.

Sadly, no it isn't.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/map-gun-laws-2009-2012

"want" may no be the best word.  But if the people passing these laws have a problem with it, they have a strange way of showing it.
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Offline largeham

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #61 on: December 15, 2012, 07:49:34 pm »
Also, Australia has an estimated 550k to 6 million illicit firearms still in country.

Where did you get this number from?

Also, killing sprees should say more about the lack of mental health services than the availability of guns.

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #62 on: December 15, 2012, 08:11:04 pm »
Also, Australia has an estimated 550k to 6 million illicit firearms still in country.

Where did you get this number from?

Also, killing sprees should say more about the lack of mental health services than the availability of guns.

It was in the link I posted proceeding the stats of the number of firearms owned by civilians in Australia and how many firearm homicides they had in '09.
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Offline Askold

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #63 on: December 16, 2012, 12:17:51 am »
Mass murderes and spree killers desire to kill as many people as possible and therefore choose a method that will let them kill a lot of people. If they won't use a gun  they can use a bomb (they can find instructions on the net for something destructive) or even a car. So I still believe that getting them some psychiatric help is a more effective preventative method than simply banning all guns. On the other hand I still stand by my suggested "gun safety school" law since that would also help possibly finding the loonies.

The Finnish school shootings were done by disturbed young men, they had tried to get help before the attacks but the system had failed. And rather than actually putting some money into the mental health for youth or in any way helping other young people in the same position our politicians started drafting gun laws, because that takes less money. And the new law suggestions they made were either against our constitution or laws that we already had and which were inneffective. Seriously, they made a law that no one under 18 can get a gun, despite the fact that both shooters were over 18. They made a policy that the first firearm license will always be a temporary license (It has to be renewed and reviewed, costing money to the gun owner.) despite the fact that the two shooters did already have such licenses and that didn't seem to stop them.

And another thing: According to our laws back then giving a 'temporary licence' was reserved for special cases. Cases where the person was deemed to unrelieable or dangerous and could not be given a proper license... Which begs the question why should they get a gun at all. And now that they made this policy it is easier to get the first license 'since it's only a temporary one' and it gives a false sense of security...


(They made it into a 'policy' because getting it into the law would have taken too much time. Our police have to obey such laws so people only got those temporary licenses. Then some of them took them to the court since our laws said that temporary license can only be given if there is a very good reason for it... Then some people took the thing to court and in all cases the courts ordered that they get a proper license since the police had not given a reason for the temporary one. It was funny when there was a public outcry in the media, "OUR COURTS ARE INSANE, WHAT ARE THEY DOING?" Even some politicians were complaining that they can't control the courts. Because. The. Courts. Have. To. Make. Their. Decisions. Based. On. The. Laws! And the police knew that every temporary license they give will be turned into normal one if the person takes it to court. And this process costs money to the goverment. But they had to do it anyway because our police have to obey their internal policieseven if they are against the law.)



.....

He doesn't like people who want mass shooters and other killers to have guns.

That is a straw man.

Sadly, no it isn't.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/map-gun-laws-2009-2012

"want" may no be the best word.  But if the people passing these laws have a problem with it, they have a strange way of showing it.

...American gun laws are insane.
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Offline rookie

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #64 on: December 16, 2012, 10:28:48 am »
I wouldn't go so far as to say they're insane. But each state has their own laws plus the federal statutes. It can be very confusing, but I don't think it's the same thing.
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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #65 on: December 16, 2012, 12:03:54 pm »
Ultimately, the problem with any gun control is that Pandora's box is already opened. You have a heavily armed populous and have to rely on their voluntary compliance since there are virtually no records of who owns what. The real problem with that is no matter how good your compliance rates are, it is the ones who ignore the law, and really only those ones, who are the potentially dangerous ones to begin with. A good law abiding citizen that accepts restrictions as necessary wasn't liable to go off the deep end anyway. It might make some people feel better, but at the end of the day it does nothing to actually solve the problem.

It's the same old tired argument, gun laws only takes guns out of the hands of people who will obey them. Unfortunately, while it is a tired old argument it is a valid point. The problem is, far too many people will use it as an excuse to do nothing.

The problem isn't that guns exist, and even if it is, we're stuck with them so we need to treat the parts of the disease that we can do something about. In my not so humble opinion, America needs to get its head out of its ass and start providing meaningful social, mental, medical help for its citizens. A gun is perfectly safe in the right hands, so do what you can to keep them there.

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #66 on: December 16, 2012, 12:15:00 pm »
The problem isn't that guns exist, and even if it is, we're stuck with them so we need to treat the parts of the disease that we can do something about. In my not so humble opinion, America needs to get its head out of its ass and start providing meaningful social, mental, medical help for its citizens. A gun is perfectly safe in the right hands, so do what you can to keep them there.

I've been saying this for a long, long time. I honestly don't believe we'd have as many tragedies as we have if people weren't desperate or essentially cut off from good medical care.
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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #67 on: December 16, 2012, 12:17:30 pm »
In my not so humble opinion, America needs to get its head out of its ass and start providing meaningful social, mental, medical help for its citizens. A gun is perfectly safe in the right hands, so do what you can to keep them there.

That would require us to stop this "I got mine, fuck everyone else" attitude, which sadly most pro-gun groups support given that they tend to support politicians that say it's ok to have that attitude to begin with. I would like to see pro-gun groups address these issues, instead sitting back and not saying anything about it.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 12:19:26 pm by Empress Nicki »

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #68 on: December 16, 2012, 01:15:20 pm »
[quote author=Empress Nicki link=topic=3204.msg116918#msg116918
That would require us to stop this "I got mine, fuck everyone else" attitude, which sadly most pro-gun groups support given that they tend to support politicians that say it's ok to have that attitude to begin with. I would like to see pro-gun groups address these issues, instead sitting back and not saying anything about it.
[/quote]

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Offline booley

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2012, 03:38:20 pm »
....

Also, killing sprees should say more about the lack of mental health services than the availability of guns.

Why couldn't it be about both.

And agian let me state, most homicides occur because of arguments.

It's possibly comforting to think that one has to have along and obvious history of mental illness before one decides to murder another (and many times that is the case).

Bu tit' s not true that is a prequisite.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #70 on: December 16, 2012, 03:56:00 pm »
....

Also, killing sprees should say more about the lack of mental health services than the availability of guns.

Why couldn't it be about both.

And agian let me state, most homicides occur because of arguments.

It's possibly comforting to think that one has to have along and obvious history of mental illness before one decides to murder another (and many times that is the case).

Bu tit' s not true that is a prequisite.

If there were good counselling services available, maybe some of those arguments wouldn't escalate to murder. It wouldn't solve the problem, but it'd probably make a good dent.
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Offline booley

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #71 on: December 16, 2012, 04:07:26 pm »
....

Mass murderes and spree killers desire to kill as many people as possible and therefore choose a method that will let them kill a lot of people. If they won't use a gun  they can use a bomb (they can find instructions on the net for something destructive) or even a car.


Yes and no. 

They could try these things and occasionally have.

But there are practical limits to other weapons that don't apply to guns.

Bows and arrows and swords require a fair bit of skill and athletic ability to use effectively.  Also bows cannot be fired as rapidly as guns limiting how many they can kill.   Guns do not have any where near as much of this weakness.

Bombs take even more skill to make as demonstrated by the number of would be bombers who blew themselves up.  Directions on the internet and actually making a functioning bomb are not the same.   It could be done if someone survives the sharp learning curve.  The unabomber did it for years.  But even there there are limitations: malfunctions, missed targets, early detection.

And the fact that bombs can be used for mass killings doesnt' work logically as an argument against gun regulation since after having a few bombs, we have moved to track and regulate the materials to make bombs.  It would be much harder for another Timothy McVeigh to pull off another oklahoma city bombing.

Also and this is anecdotal but spree killers just seem to prefer guns.  Some have had bombs in their possession but always as a back up or booby trap. 

It should be noted that with 16 bombs over the span of years, the Unabomber killed 3 people and injured 23.  This latest shooting beat him by a mile in less then an hour.

Knives can actually be more lethal then guns in close proximity.  But the operative words here are "close proximity".  Yes one can throw a knife but once you do you can't use it again without going after it. Plus the equivalent number of knives to the number of bullets in high capacity magazine would be pretty bulky. (how heavy would 60 to 100 knives be? and how quickly could someone throw them as opposed to shooting bullets)

Also there are far more ways for someone trained in self defense to defend one's self from a knife then from a  gun.  (a friend showed me once. It requires the gunman to be close, slow and stupid and maybe you might do it)

And cars are just impractical as a means to kill a large number of people unless you can get them all lined up in a row on a street and keep them from moving.

Ever try to sneak a car inside a building?  The metal detector is the least of your problems.

So yes in that one could use other weapons to commit a mass murder.

But no in that the odds are against you getting as high a death count before being stopped or everybody escaping.

If one is going to go on a murder spree....  guns are most efficient way to do it.

That's why we invented the things. To make killing fast and easy.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 04:15:03 pm by booley »
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Offline booley

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #72 on: December 16, 2012, 04:13:22 pm »
....


If there were good counselling services available, maybe some of those arguments wouldn't escalate to murder. It wouldn't solve the problem, but it'd probably make a good dent.

For some people but really this is cultural (which may explain why the southern US has more gun crimes)

It's not that people are insane.

It's that they think they need to escalate or else they are a "bitch"

Though I will say that there is some evidence that there might also be a medical cause to violent crime as well..

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/05/lead-prisons-and-crack-explaining-drop-violent-crime

In spite of the mass shootings, violent crime has actually been going down.  through no one is quite sure why.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #73 on: December 16, 2012, 04:24:22 pm »
....


If there were good counselling services available, maybe some of those arguments wouldn't escalate to murder. It wouldn't solve the problem, but it'd probably make a good dent.

For some people but really this is cultural (which may explain why the southern US has more gun crimes)

It's not that people are insane.

It's that they think they need to escalate or else they are a "bitch"

Though I will say that there is some evidence that there might also be a medical cause to violent crime as well..

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/05/lead-prisons-and-crack-explaining-drop-violent-crime

In spite of the mass shootings, violent crime has actually been going down.  through no one is quite sure why.

If they think they need to escalate or be considered a "bitch", perhaps good counselling services (not only for those who are in danger of escalation, but for those who would view them negatively) would help.

As for a medical cause, if such is shown, then good, generally available medical care might help alleviate the problem.
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Offline booley

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #74 on: December 16, 2012, 04:49:38 pm »
....

If they think they need to escalate or be considered a "bitch", perhaps good counselling services (not only for those who are in danger of escalation, but for those who would view them negatively) would help.


Unfortunately you would need to literally have counselors for millions of people, almost watchign them around the clock..all the while the cultural in reinforcement kept undoing the work  since humans are social animals and respond to the society in which they live. It would like trying to cure crack addiction for every addict at once.. while inside the crack house.

I am all for mental health being easily available for all, shootings or no shootings.  many suffer from some form of mental illness (and never hurt anyone)

But it seems going that route to stop aggression and gun violence won't work.

It's not insanity. It's humanity

(and yes I realize some consider the two the same)

Quote
As for a medical cause, if such is shown, then good, generally available medical care might help alleviate the problem.

Unfortunately we are talking about lead poisoning.  We can't undo the damage once done . At best we can treat it and try to keep others from having the problem.

But while gun control is unpopular, cleaning up the environment to stop crime isn't even on the radar.  Very few even seem aware there's a link.
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